Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4

[Hidden In Him]

But our salvation is assured:
1 John 5:16-19 - "If any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death. There is a sin to death: I do not say of that that he should make a request. Every unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not to death.
We know that every one begotten of God does not sin, but he that has been begotten of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one."

Hi, Keith. I agree with your post up till here. On this passage, it just again strikes me as an inconsistency to have John speaking of praying for a brother in v.16 but then switching out immediately to discussing a non-believer in the next verse. The context seems to continually focus on the nature of the sin rather than on different types of people who commit them, so I would have to go with the common reading that he is discussing the sins of believers in both instances, with the sin of denying the Lord being something that no believer can rightly simply ask God to forgive. It must be repented of or there will be no forgiveness.

As for the phrase "every one begotten of God does not sin," he makes the statement that any brother who sins has an Advocate with the Father in 1 John 2:1, and he then refers to true believers "keeping His word" in 1 John 2:5. I take this in the same sense as when he says, "every one begotten of God does not sin." He's not talking about sinless perfection or never sinning. He's talking about preventing himself from defiantly walking in sin, such as when one willfully hates his brother, which he then refers to specifically in 1 John 2:9-11.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The immediate context shows he's talking about the gospel itself. Why?

why? I was just responding to “Ok, but now, you appear to be implying that Paul was talking about other believer's souls when he spoke of God being able "to guard what I have entrusted to Him," but scholars generally regard him to be here referring to his own soul,”

You said “The immediate context shows he's talking about the gospel itself.” ...agree.

 

[keithr]

The immediate context shows he's talking about the gospel itself. Why?

The previous verse (v6) says:

"seeing it is God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So is it the "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" that is the hidden treasure?

Paul later goes on to say:

"Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day" (2Co 4:16 Darby)
or as the Good News Bible puts it,
"For this reason we never become discouraged. Even though our physical being is gradually decaying, yet our spiritual being is renewed day after day."

So the "earthen vessel" decays away but the "hidden treasure" inside, our new spiritual being (begotten and growing but not yet born) continues to grow.

 

[keithr]

Hi, Keith. I agree with your post up till here. On this passage, it just again strikes me as an inconsistency to have John speaking of praying for a brother in v.16 but then switching out immediately to discussing a non-believer in the next verse. The context seems to continually focus on the nature of the sin rather than on different types of people who commit them, so I would have to go with the common reading that he is discussing the sins of believers in both instances, with the sin of denying the Lord being something that no believer can rightly simply ask God to forgive. It must be repented of or there will be no forgiveness.

Yes, I agree with you.

As for the phrase "every one begotten of God does not sin," he makes the statement that any brother who sins has an Advocate with the Father in 1 John 2:1, ... He's not talking about sinless perfection or never sinning. He's talking about preventing himself from defiantly walking in sin, such as when one willfully hates his brother, which he then refers to specifically in 1 John 2:9-11.

Yes, I agree again. As I typed it I was thinking that really it means that those begotten again would try to not sin, but we are still imperfect while in these fleshly bodies so inevitably we do sometimes still commit sins.

Perhaps I should agree that our salvation is assured, as long as we maintain our faith.

 

[charity]

Very insightful! Thank you for sharing. Wow. You said: Paul himself too, was being 'turned away from' (2 Timothy 1:15) and 'forsaken' (2 Timothy 4:10-11 & 16); nevertheless the Lord both 'stood with Him'”

and you said: ‘The form of sound words,' (v.13) or the 'good thing'(v.14) that Paul had committed to Timothy, he was urged also to 'keep' by the Holy Ghost which dwelt in him: for all around Timothy in Ephesus, there was debate and the strife of tongues, for the message was being forsaken,”

Makes me consider: John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:20-24 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;(that Paul had committed to Timothy, he was urged also to 'keep' by the Holy Spirit)if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. [21] But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. [22] If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. [23] He that hateth me hateth my Father also. [24] If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

...for the message was being forsaken,”
turned away from

'That good thing which was committed unto thee
keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
This thou knowest,
that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;
of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.'
(2 Timothy 1:14)

Hello @VictoryinJesus (& @Hidden In Him)

Thank you for this response.

In 2 Timothy 1:15, Paul says that, '... all they which are in Asia be turned away from me.' That includes those in Ephesus where Timothy was. Yet the Ephesian elders that met with Paul as he journeyed to Jerusalem, in Acts 20:17-38, had not then turned away from Paul, or the message he had given to them prior to that meeting. Paul reviews, in these verses, what he had taught them, declaring, also, that he had taught them 'all the council of God' that he himself had received from Christ Jesus, His risen Lord up to that time. He tells them:-

' ... I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you,
but have shewed you (ie., by example), and have taught you
publickly, and from house to house,
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
.. (1) repentance toward God,
.... (2) and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.'
(Act 20:20-21)

' ... And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem,
not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city,
saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
.. But none of these things move me,
.... neither count I my life dear unto myself,
...... (1) so that I might finish my course with joy, (2 Timothy 4:7)
........ (2) and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus,
............... to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
(Acts 20:22-25)

'And now, behold, I know that ye all,
among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God,
shall see my face no more.
Wherefore I take you to record this day,
that I am pure from the blood of all men.
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.'
(Acts 20:26-27)

* The highlighted portions above show the extent and content of what Paul had preached to the Ephesians to date. Nothing of which the Ephesian elders had taken exception to, or caused them to turn away from Paul. So what was it that had caused them to turn away from him, the fact of his imprisonment would not have done so, for they would not have been ashamed of his chains.

* Paul had warned the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:28-31:-

'Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
.. For I know this,
.. (1) that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
.... (2) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.'

* Well, we see in the letter Paul wrote to Timothy, that this had taken place already within Ephesus (2 Timothy 2:14-18), yet this would have drawn the 'faithful' in Ephesus closer to Paul, and not turned them away surely.

* It is my belief that the further revelation that Paul received from God and which he shared with the Ephesians in the epistle he wrote to them, was the cause of their turning away. For subsequently all that had been told to them was verifiable, they could employ the Berean spirit of Acts 17:11, and search the Scriptures to confirm that what he had said was true. However the things revealed in Paul's prison epistles, were not verifiable, not having been previously revealed, for they had been 'hid in God' since the world began (Ephesians 3:9); they were 'the unsearchable riches of Christ' (Ephesians 3:8). The Jews of the dispersion within Asia, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, particularly, would have found the unsearchable nature of this further revelation difficult to overcome, but it seems that all turned away from Paul and his message,

* In His earlier epistles, Paul had said nothing that was not verifiable by the Scriptures; for the Gospel of God, that he had been separated unto, had been the subject of the Old Testament Prophets. (Roman 1:1-4). That a further revelation was to be given to him, the risen Lord had told him, as Paul testified to in Acts 26:16.

* There is no mention of the truth conveyed in Paul's Ephesian letter in the review Paul gives of his ministry to the Ephesians elders in Acts 20, in which he said that he had given to the Ephesians 'all the council of God'. So it had not then been revealed to him, otherwise he could not have said that.

* The believers in Asia who turned away from Paul and his message, did not cease to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but it appears that they rejected the further truth God had revealed to him, and which he had made known in the later (prison) epistles.

Forgive me that these thoughts of mine have resulted in a long entry.

With love to you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Behold]

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?
Blessings to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Lets talk about predestination as the "predestined elect".. theology.

So, where did the wheels come off, theologically, that created the = "god chooses some to burn and chooses others to go to heaven"....theology.

What causes this crazy theology of "God burns whom he will, and doesn't burn others, for no particular reason", ?

Where does this crazy idea come from?
Well, Calvin.. the Devil......etc.
But, what causes such thinking that leads to people accusing God of being such a cosmic psychopath?

Simple..
the issue is found right here..

= "foreknowledge"....

See that word?
That world flips some people's minds and faith and theology, because they can't understand it theologically, to the point that denominations are built on the misunderstanding of ONE WORD.

Now let me explain what this word means, regarding God, so that you might get out of this "God burns some for no reason at all", cult, if you are in it.

The "Foreknowledge of God", is simply this, Saint......God knows all things before they happen.
This is in fact the "spirit of Prophecy"....Its God knowing what is going to occur long before it happens.

An example..

God knew that Mary would bring The Messiah into this world, before God created Adam and Eve.

Before Jesus was crucified, God already knew when you'd be born.
So, did He cause you to be born?
No. but he KNEW YOU WOULD BE>..
See that?
That is God knowing before it happens...

So, where did Calvin go nuts, and thereby lead many into his Theological error?
He didnt understand one thing.....>"KNOWING is not the same as CAUSING"...
Knowing, is NOT the same, as Causing.
Knowing something is going to happen, is not the same as causing it to occur.

John Calvin, could not understand this... so, when he read, "predestined according to FOREKNOWLEDGE", he misunderstood this as. "Predestined because God caused it to happen"..
Understand?

Look again......"fore....knowledge'.......is Knowledge of a situation BEFORE it happens...
See that?

God knew that Jesus would go to the Cross, but did God Nail Him up there?
THe word said that it "pleased God to bruise Him", Yet, it was Christ who decided to Go to the Cross.
He made a DECISION....... "not my will but YOURS FATHER, is what i will do".
See that?
=2 wills, and Jesus used His FREEWILL to choose to Do His> Father's will.
Saint, choice always reveals, freewill.
And God knew Jesus would do this, but God didnt make Him do it.

Knowing, IS NOT the same as Causing.
God's Knowing is God's Foreknowledge.
And. That is KNOWING what is going to happen, before it occurs.
And that does not mean to cause it to occur., as Calvin misunderstood, and so do the hypercalvinists you find today wo teach that God chooses some for hell.
No... he does not.
What God does is honor their CHOICE, that he already know they would make.
God knew before you were born if you are going to die a Christ Rejector, or if you will die as a Born Again Saint.
You chose this, and God knew what you would choose, before you were born.
See it?

Knowing, is not the same as causing.
What God is able to do, is KNOW all things before they happen = Foreknowledge.

 

[charity]

Lets talk about predestination as the "predestined elect".. theology.

So, where did the wheels come off, theologically, that created the = "god chooses some to burn and chooses others to go to heaven"....theology.

What causes this crazy theology of "God burns whom he will, and doesn't burn others, for no particular reason", ?

Where does this crazy idea come from?
Well, Calvin.. the Devil......etc.
But, what causes such thinking that leads to people accusing God of being such a cosmic psychopath?

Simple..
the issue is found right here..

= "foreknowledge"....

See that word?
That world flips some people's minds and faith and theology, because they can't understand it theologically, to the point that denominations are built on the misunderstanding of ONE WORD.

Now let me explain what this word means, regarding God, so that you might get out of this "God burns some for no reason at all", cult, if you are in it.

The "Foreknowledge of God", is simply this, Saint......God knows all things before they happen.
This is in fact the "spirit of Prophecy"....Its God knowing what is going to occur long before it happens.

An example..

God knew that Mary would bring The Messiah into this world, before God created Adam and Eve.

Before Jesus was crucified, God already knew when you'd be born.
So, did He cause you to be born?
No. but he KNEW YOU WOULD BE>..
See that?
That is God knowing before it happens...

So, where did Calvin go nuts, and thereby lead many into his Theological error?
He didnt understand one thing.....>"KNOWING is not the same as CAUSING"...
Knowing, is NOT the same, as Causing.
Knowing something is going to happen, is not the same as causing it to occur.

John Calvin, could not understand this... so, when he read, "predestined according to FOREKNOWLEDGE", he misunderstood this as. "Predestined because God caused it to happen"..
Understand?

Look again......"fore....knowledge'.......is Knowledge of a situation BEFORE it happens...
See that?

God knew that Jesus would go to the Cross, but did God Nail Him up there?
THe word said that it "pleased God to bruise Him", Yet, it was Christ who decided to Go to the Cross.
He made a DECISION....... "not my will but YOURS FATHER, is what i will do".
See that?
=2 wills, and Jesus used His FREEWILL to choose to Do His> Father's will.
Saint, choice always reveals, freewill.
And God knew Jesus would do this, but God didnt make Him do it.

Knowing, IS NOT the same as Causing.
God's Knowing is God's Foreknowledge.
And. That is KNOWING what is going to happen, before it occurs.
And that does not mean to cause it to occur., as Calvin misunderstood, and so do the hypercalvinists you find today wo teach that God chooses some for hell.
No... he does not.
What God does is honor their CHOICE, that he already know they would make.
God knew before you were born if you are going to die a Christ Rejector, or if you will die as a Born Again Saint.
You chose this, and God knew what you would choose, before you were born.
See it?

Knowing, is not the same as causing.
What God is able to do, is KNOW all things before they happen = Foreknowledge.

'And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called according to His purpose.
For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called:
and whom He called, them He also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.'
(Rom 8:28)

Hello there, @Behold

I didn't realise this thread was about 'Election' or 'Predestination', but in relation to the content of 2 Timothy 1:2-4. However I agree with your thoughts expressed regarding it. Fore-knowledge (or to know beforehand) comes before pre-destination.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

We have been begotten again to become a new creature in Christ. The earthen vessel is our fleshly (human) body. The "treasure" is the embryonic new creature that will be born in the resurrection:

"For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working by which he is able even to subject all things to himself" (Php 3:20-21).

"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is" (1 John 3:2).

'For God, Who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
hath shined in our hearts,
to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God
in the face of Jesus Christ.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels,
that the excellency of the power may be of God,
and not of us.'
(2Co 4:6-7)

Hello @keithr,

According to the context the treasure is, 'the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ'. It is this knowledge that is the treasure we hold in such very earthen vessels.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Behold]

'

I didn't realise this thread was about 'Election' or 'Predestination', but in relation to the content of 2 Timothy 1:2-4. However I agree with your thoughts expressed regarding it. Fore-knowledge (or to know beforehand) comes before pre-destination.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I just answered this question more fully, as found posted by the Thread's OP

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?

Blessings to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

 

[VictoryinJesus]

For I know this,
.. (1) that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
.... (2) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.'

crazy morning so I haven’t the time to fully read and digest your entire post. Really want to come back later and read it further. Thank you. For me what you said above says a lot towards “guard” and what is to be guarded or kept by the Holy Spirit. As in the earlier discussion of “guard by the Holy Spirit that treasure entrusted to you” and was Paul’s only focus on himself and promoting his own saved status as what was and is to be guarded...or others, those things that belong to Christ? “The flock” “guard by the Holy Spirit that treasure entrusted to you” as He told Peter “when you are converted, feed my flock” ... “strengthen your brothers”.

Is there any difference between “given or entrusted the ministry of reconciliation, be you reconciled unto God”, or the glorious gospel, or 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Isn’t it saying the same thing...that the excellency of the power may be of God, not of us. (Says a lot, not sure it is so widely disputed) “being born not of the flesh but of the Spirit.” Again, only an opinion but Paul spoke of putting aside himself and running the race for those things which belongs to the Lord. An example of (Matthew 6:19-21) Paul being crucified. Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

and the time spent it was not “I” who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

“that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
.... (2) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

 

[Behold]

[QUOTE="keithr, post: 949401, member: 9566"

Perhaps I should agree that our salvation is assured, as long as we maintain our faith. [/QUOTE]

Your salvation is assured if you are born again.

 

[Behold]

“that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
.... (2) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

Notice that Paul says that real disciples of Jesus can be "drawn away" by theological liars.
Why?
Its because the disciples are not "grounded in Grace" and also they have not been taught how to hear a spiritual liar.

Paul speaks about "perverse things" these same will teach.
But this is not perverse in the since of sensual carnality, as the context is ministers who are leading the sheep into the spiritual darkness.
So, this is the Devil's "Ministers of Righteousness" who cunningly mix in Error, when they are also teaching some truth.
Reader, this is why you have to be and then stay SHARPENED within your Spirituality, so that you can RECOGNIZE these liars.

Something else to understand, is, for the most part, they believe their lies, and that is why they have such ZEAL to convince you of them.

So, to sharpen yourself, you have to establish your heart and your mind of faith with the correct understanding of God's Grace.

And, to recognize a liar, is to SEE that they do not give JESUS all the CREDIT due Him for saving them, and Keeping them saved.

See that part? "Keeping them saved"..... That is where the deceivers spotlight themselves......as they will all agree that Jesus started their salvation, but they will hairlip hell itself to convince you that YOU have to keep yourself saved.

And what is that? That is Christ rejection, that is pretending to explain Salvation.

 

[charity]

crazy morning so I haven’t the time to fully read and digest your entire post. Really want to come back later and read it further. Thank you.

For me what you said above says a lot towards “guard” and what is to be guarded or kept by the Holy Spirit. As in the earlier discussion of “guard by the Holy Spirit that treasure entrusted to you” and was Paul’s only focus on himself and promoting his own saved status as what was and is to be guarded...or others, those things that belong to Christ? “The flock” “guard by the Holy Spirit that treasure entrusted to you” as He told Peter “when you are converted, feed my flock” ... “strengthen your brothers”.

Is there any difference between “given or entrusted the ministry of reconciliation, be you reconciled unto God”, or the glorious gospel, or 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Isn’t it saying the same thing...that the excellency of the power may be of God, not of us. (Says a lot, not sure it is so widely disputed) “being born not of the flesh but of the Spirit.” Again, only an opinion but Paul spoke of putting aside himself and running the race for those things which belongs to the Lord. An example of (Matthew 6:19-21) Paul being crucified. Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

and the time spent it was not “I” who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

“that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
.... (2) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

Hello, @VictoryinJesus,

Thank you for your response. I so love the thought that God 'keeps' or guards us, as in Philippians 4:6-7 where it is our hearts and minds that He keeps. We doing our part in the outworking of that peace by doing what is said in Philippians 4:8-9.

You mention 2 Corinthians 4:6-7, where, 'the light of the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ' is the treasure that we have in our earthen vessels, which is so lovely, isn't it? The power that enables us to hold such knowledge is indeed of God, for like earthen vessels we are capable of cracking and losing such a precious cargo, the fact that we do indeed manage to retain such knowledge, is evidence of His power at work in us.

Matthew 6:29 that you refer to 'where your treasure is, there will your heart be also'; Hmmm... the heart is the seat of our affections isn't it, and this reminds me of Colossians 3:1-3, 'If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.'

Christ is our treasure encapsulated, and He is above, it is upon Him that our affection should be stayed, isn't it? For we are identified with Christ in His life now at God's right hand, as we were in His death. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, about the fact that He is now interceding on our behalf before the Father (Romans 8:34). That is what He is doing: should we not be identifying with Him in that too? I think the prayers of Ephesians 1:17-23 and Ephesians 3:14-21 are good prayers for us to be praying for all the members of the Body of Christ, for it is what we all need, isn't it?

There was a time in my life when I was on a very slippery slope, and in danger of something dire, and it was God who held on to me, and stopped me from falling into that abyss, and I know that there were two believing friends who were praying earnestly for me too. How I needed rescuing, and how mighty His power is Who prevented that fall. Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you, ViJ,
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hidden In Him]

why? I was just responding to “Ok, but now, you appear to be implying that Paul was talking about other believer's souls when he spoke of God being able "to guard what I have entrusted to Him," but scholars generally regard him to be here referring to his own soul,”

You said “The immediate context shows he's talking about the gospel itself.” ...agree.

His own soul in v.12, the gospel in v.14. This is why there is a transition to discussing "sound words" in V.13.

11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The previous verse (v6) says:

"seeing it is God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So is it the "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" that is the hidden treasure?

Yes, and by extension the gospel that He is the Son of God. It's essentially an indirect reference to the transfiguration, and the knowledge that He is not merely a man but God manifest in the flesh. This is why He is preached as Lord.

2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. [6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Paul later goes on to say:

"Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day" (2Co 4:16 Darby)
or as the Good News Bible puts it, "For this reason we never become discouraged. Even though our physical being is gradually decaying, yet our spiritual being is renewed day after day."

So the "earthen vessel" decays away but the "hidden treasure" inside, our new spiritual being (begotten and growing but not yet born) continues to grow.

Well, only here you are transferring to a new place in the text, 10 verses later.

Let me confess something here, however: The question of what the treasure is in v.7 isn't something I've ever spent much time looking at in this much detail, so I guess I can't be totally dogmatic on it.

I can quote for you something from a commentary I was looking at on this verse, however: "The Lord committed the treasure of the gospel to the apostle for careful management as a steward of God..." (Complete Bible Library, Romans-Corinthians, P.539).

So for the moment, I'd have to go with my instincts, especially if they are supported by a source I value (not that commentaries are always correct).

 

[Hidden In Him]

Perhaps I should agree that our salvation is assured, as long as we maintain our faith.

That I consider to be a VERY good way to put it.

I think the hearts of sinful men deep down convict them, so no matter of excusing oneself will work. But as John once said, "Even if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things. Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God."

 

[Hidden In Him]

Knowing is NOT the same as Causing.
Knowing something is going to happen, is not the same as causing it to occur...

Agreed!

 

[marks]

I keep missing this thread . . . I read a few posts, it's all good stuff, so I think about it for a bit, come back, and y'all are onto the next thing already! I feel like I'm missing the party!!

But a very interesting thread!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sometimes I think we overthink our "calling". We study ourselves and take a poll and ask questions... What are my gifts... What are my talents... Thing is I see no evidence of any of that in scripture.
I think if we are walking in faith... Being led of the spirit, we tend to just fall into our niche. If we overthink and start making our own decisions we may well deceive ourselves into thinking more of ourselves than we ought. Remember Jesus saying when we go to a feast sit at the bottom of the table? Then let the Master invite you up. I'm reminded of Micah's counsel... Seek mercy, do justly, and walk humbly with your God. So long as we constantly do our best with what we have, God will provide us with all we need for those times when we step into the unknown. Taking the courage to take those steps in faith, trusting God's providence, is where we will find our calling.

I remember being given booklets to help determine what my spiritual gifts were. Take this quiz, score it up, and find out God's work in you!

Organic living, that's what we do. Add nothing!

I think it can be easy to get invested in a new persona, I'm going to be The Teacher, The Prophet, The __________ . And instead, I am a child of God. I like your reference to Micah, I think that's right on! It's that simple. Our lives are such an adventure, and who knows what is around the next bend? Yet every moment is rich and is enriched as we stop and savor the presence and love of our Creator. Every moment really is unknown.

I'm used to plans and order, but life is mystery and discovery. Before I recognized God in my life, that's what I did. Tried to plan and control everything. The mind of the flesh. And so many years went by after I was reborn that I really didn't "get it" about that fundamental level of thinking that has a million schemes to put 'me' in the driver's seat.

To me, spiritual gifts are in a sense a description of how God gives us a full self-sufficiency for every good work. We can walk in faith into any situation knowing that God gives us whatever it is we need to accomplish His will. And that He is working in us both to will and do what pleases Him. And that He make sure whatever the testing we are able to handle it, and come through it the right way.

Preaching to myself now . . .

Much love!

 

[charity]

His own soul in v.12, the gospel in v.14. This is why there is a transition to discussing "sound words" in V.13.

11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

(12) For the which cause I also suffer these things:

nevertheless I am not ashamed:
for I know whom I have believed,
and am persuaded that He is able to keep
that which I have committed unto Him against that day.​

(13) Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me,

in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.​

(14) That good thing which was committed unto thee keep

by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.​

Hello @Hidden In Him, (& @VictoryinJesus)

Gr. paratheke = a deposit that is committed unto (1 Timothy 6:20)
Gr, parakatathēkē = deposit (a sacred trust) (1 Timothy 6:20; 2 Timothy 1:14) Translated:- committed.
Gr. paratithēmi = deposit or commit (1 Timothy 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:2)

With respect it is not his soul that Paul commits to God in 1 Timothy 1:12: but the 'form of sound words' which Timothy had heard of Paul, that was the 'deposit' of which Paul speaks in verse 12 (above), and to which he refers in verse 14. We meet with it again in 1 Timothy 6:20; 'O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust ', and immediately following this comes the exposure of the opposite of sound (ie., healthy) doctrine:- 'avoiding profane and vain babblings' - which was false knowledge (2 Timothy 2:16-18; 1 Timothy 6:20). A further reference to this 'deposit' is found in 2 Timothy 2:2:-

'And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses,
the same commit (deposit) thou to faithful men,
who shall be able to teach others also.'
(2 Timothy 2:2)​

This deposit is now thankfully in our possession in the form of the epistles written from prison by Paul. They constitute the ground and hope, the doctrine and practice, and the position held in the purpose of the ages, of the church of the one Body. What an important deposit of truth this is that Paul commits to God's safe keeping, and to Timothy to be made known.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris