Your thoughts on TEN verses

[ATP]

The premise of the NON-OSAS entire belief system is that a born again believer can be thrown into the lake of fire, when in fact the lake of fire is God's wrath poured out on nonbelievers Rev 14:10 NIV. And scripture clearly states that believers are not appointed to wrath! Their premise is faulty at best.

 

[ATP]

Rom 8:35, 38, 39 ESV is about the elect and the love of God that Jesus shed on the cross.

 

[ATP]

Notice it says elect and death here. Also notice it mentions the Father AND Christ Jesus.......

Rom 8:33 ESV Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) or NON-OSAS.

NON-OSAS is the only biblical doctrine taught in the bible.

 

[ATP]

NON-OSAS is the only biblical doctrine taught in the bible.

Do you have scripture proof.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you have scripture proof.

Yes.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here we are warned that those who

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

can not only lose their salvation but can also be where it is impossible for them to be forgiven. This is the ultimate example of a saved person losing their salvation.

 

[ATP]

Yes.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here we are warned that those who

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

can not only lose their salvation but can also be where it is impossible for them to be forgiven. This is the ultimate example of a saved person losing their salvation.

Partakers is not referring to believers. None of the terms used below here are used anywhere else in Scripture to refer to salvation. Nor are any of the normal New Testament terms and synonyms for salvation used in this passage. Nowhere is it stated that these people have been justified, sanctified, born again, regenerated, or saved. No mention is made of faith or of eternal life. Verse 6 does not say that these people cannot be renewed to salvation, but that they cannot be renewed to repentance.

1. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened
2. who have tasted the heavenly gift
3. who have shared in the Holy Spirit
4. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
5. and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

Notice the term "fallen away" here. This passage is speaking to non-believing Jews specifically in Israel, being that Hebrews is a JEWISH book. Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation! It all goes back to the verses you are ignoring, verses 7-8..

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Heb 6:4-8 NIV It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

If you were right that would make God contradictory and a liar. Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

- ATP

 

[ewq1938]

Partakers is not referring to believers.

Can't disagree more. The people these verses are speaking of are not only Christians, but Christians that have experienced the highest experience that's possible for a believer.

 

[ATP]

Can't disagree more. The people these verses are speaking of are not only Christians, but Christians that have experienced the highest experience that's possible for a believer.

How is that possible when Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 makes your belief laughable.

 

[ewq1938]

How is that possible when Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 makes your belief laughable.

If something were to be laughable as you say, it's using those verses to attempt to disprove Hebrews 6:4-6:6.

 

[ATP]

If something were to be laughable as you say, it's using those verses to attempt to disprove Hebrews 6:4-6:6.

Then prove it. Prove that I'm taking Rom 8:33-39 ESV out of context.

 

[ewq1938]

Then prove it. Prove that I'm taking Rom 8:33-39 ESV out of context.

No one else can separate us from Christ but we can "fall away" as the other verses say and other verses mention a "falling away" that shall come:

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

For some who were "enlightened" and were "partakers of the Holy Ghost" will commit Apostasy and won't be forgiven. That is a lose of salvation.

 

[ATP]

No one else can separate us from Christ but we can "fall away" as the other verses say and other verses mention a "falling away" that shall come:

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

For some who were "enlightened" and were "partakers of the Holy Ghost" will commit Apostasy and won't be forgiven. That is a lose of salvation.

Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation! You either have the root or not, either you are born again or not. It is that simple.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

[ewq1938]

Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation!

No, context doesn't support that.

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

These things don't apply to short term, non-rooted Christians.

 

[ATP]

No, context doesn't support that.

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

These things don't apply to short term, non-rooted Christians.

But context does support that. Matt 13 is from the Word of God. God is not contradictory. Either you have the root or you don't. Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

[ewq1938]

But context does support that. Matt 13 is from the Word of God. God is not contradictory. Either you have the root or you don't. Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

As I said, having no root wasn't the issue for those who will lose salvation in the other verses. Besides, roots don't matter on this topic. We are discussing if salvation can be lost and it can for those who were born again then commit Apostasy for whatever reason.

 

[Barrd]

What are your thoughts on these TEN verses. A good discussion. - ATP :mellow:

ALL SINS ARE COVERED - Col 2:13-15 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

ALL SINS ARE COVERED - Rom 4:1-8 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION - Rom 8:1-4 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

WHO WILL BRING ANY CHARGE - Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

GOD LOVED FIRST - Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

NEITHER PRESENT NOR FUTURE - Rom 8:38-39 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

INHERITANCE KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU/SHIELDED BY GOD'S POWER - 1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

WE WERE CHOSEN/WE WERE MARKED WITH A SEAL - Eph 1:11-14 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

CANNOT BE SNATCHED FROM JESUS/FATHER'S HAND - John 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

WE HAVE CROSSED OVER FROM DEATH TO LIFE - John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

- ATP

What do I think of those ten verses?
I think that, if these were the only verses I knew of the entire Bible, I'd think that those blessed "chosen ones" could do anything they wanted...lie, cheat, steal, murder, commit adultery...anything at all...and God would still love them...
unlike the rest of us miserable sinners, whom He has condemned already...

Fortunately, however, I have the entire Bible at my disposal, and thankfully I know better.

 

[ATP]

As I said, having no root wasn't the issue for those who will lose salvation in the other verses. Besides, roots don't matter on this topic. We are discussing if salvation can be lost and it can for those who were born again then commit Apostasy for whatever reason.

Having no root is the issue. Falling away doesn't mean two different things in Hebrews 6:6 and Matt 13:21. Falling away has only one definition throughout scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

Having no root is the issue.

Nope. These ones had roots which is why they could experience all those amazing things. Something very big caused them to commit Apostasy. Perhaps they committed the unforgivable sin as the verses do mention it is impossible to renew them to repentance:

Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Commit this sin and salvation is lost! There is no once saved always will be saved in the bible.

 

[ATP]

Nope. These ones had roots which is why they could experience all those amazing things. Something very big caused them to commit Apostasy. Perhaps they committed the unforgivable sin as the verses do mention it is impossible to renew them to repentance:

Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Commit this sin and salvation is lost! There is no once saved always will be saved in the bible.

Where does it say they had the root of salvation? Nowhere. In fact, we have been adopted into an inheritance by the seal of God which makes us heirs of Christ. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children Rom 8:16 NIV, and we are shielded by God's power 1 Peter 1:5 NIV. You're belief is based on the devil's lie, a delusion if you will. Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.