ZECHARIAH 14

[Trekson]

Randy Kluth, To properly understand the context you have to put the word national in, a person should know how to read and think that, just from reading the scripture. Dan. 9:24 (KJ) - "Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish ( the national) transgression (which was rejecting Christ), make an end of (national) sins, to make reconciliation for (national) iniquity (by atoning on a national level), to bring in everlasting righteousness (Christ into Jerusalem, for keeps), to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy. The word "place" isn't in the KJ thus it offers a misunderstanding, the most Holy is Christ and that means anointing him as King as they did w/ David in 2 Sam. 5:3 - "So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel." When the prophecy says to end sin it means exactly that, NOT, I will send them somewhere else to continue in their sin! All those things will happen when Zech. 12:10, 13:8-9 and Matt. 23:39 happen. All visions and prophecies have NOT been sealed up, the unfulfilled ones, and there are many, continue to this day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy Kluth, To properly understand the context you have to put the word national in, a person should know how to read and think that, just from reading the scripture. Dan. 9:24 (KJ) - "Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish ( the national) transgression (which was rejecting Christ), make an end of (national) sins, to make reconciliation for (national) iniquity (by atoning on a national level), to bring in everlasting righteousness (Christ into Jerusalem, for keeps), to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy. The word "place" isn't in the KJ thus it offers a misunderstanding, the most Holy is Christ and that means anointing him as King as they did w/ David in 2 Sam. 5:3 - "So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel." When the prophecy says to end sin it means exactly that, NOT, I will send them somewhere else to continue in their sin! All those things will happen when Zech. 12:10, 13:8-9 and Matt. 23:39 happen. All visions and prophecies have NOT been sealed up, the unfulfilled ones, and there are many, continue to this day.

Yes, this is a semantical difference we have in our different interpretations. You read "end sin for all time," and I read, "end Israel's sin in the time of Christ's 1st Coming by exiling Israel from their land." Others read, "fulfill all prophecy," whereas I read, "fulfill all prophecy necessary for Salvation," which happened at Christ's 1st Coming.

We may disagree on this and still agree on the essentials of the Christian faith. I trust that is true?

 

[marks]

I think if people understand this and remove it from their premill series of events they will get a clearer picture about the timing of the rapture and the events of the 70th week.

Zechariah 14:2 KJV
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

It's difficult for me to imagine this happens during the Millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ. That He will allow the forces of Satan to overcome Jerusalem, to enslave and rape Jerusalem's inhabitants.

Much love!

 

[Trekson]

Zechariah 14:2 KJV
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

It's difficult for me to imagine this happens during the Millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ. That He will allow the forces of Satan to overcome Jerusalem, to enslave and rape Jerusalem's inhabitants.

Much love!

I agree, that's why the "saved" are escorted out of there leaving the unsaved to their fate and this is 'after" the millennium and after satan is loosed and when he has completed his mission of gathering all nations while preparing to defeat God.

 

[jeffweeder]

I agree, that's why the "saved" are escorted out of there leaving the unsaved to their fate and this is 'after" the millennium and after satan is loosed and when he has completed his mission of gathering all nations while preparing to defeat God.

Weird that the glorified saints would need to be escorted out of the millennium to leave those deluded to their fate.
This is a second coming occurrence as satan goes forth in all his power of deception with his man of sin just prior to the Lords second appearing that they may be judged and condemned. Why drag this out for another thousand years?

2thess 2

7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, you're just so far off it would take more time than I want to invest in a conversation which apparently you will ignore anyway, so what's the point?

No, I am 100 percent correct. You can't even get the Raptures timing right so nothing you say about Prophesy/Eschatology has any merit in my eyes. PERIOD.

 

[Trekson]

Weird that the glorified saints would need to be escorted out of the millennium to leave those deluded to their fate.
This is a second coming occurrence as satan goes forth in all his power of deception with his man of sin just prior to the Lords second appearing that they may be judged and condemned. Why drag this out for another thousand years?

2thess 2

7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

I don't drag it out, the bible does. The saints are some of the armies Christ came with, it's the still living that is going into hiding, we are helping to protect them. When satan is loosed to deceive the earth again, the millennial era will cease and apparently Jesus allows satan to tempt the earth again and apparently he is successful as the global armies coming to Jerusalem are "as the sands of the sea". The battle in vs. 3, imo, is Armageddon, which is long ago history according to the text and is the only battle that can be said that Jesus actually fought "in the day of battle".

 

[Trekson]

No, I am 100 percent correct. You can't even get the Raptures timing right so nothing you say about Prophesy/Eschatology has any merit in my eyes. PERIOD.

Nobody but the unlearned arrogant believe they are 100% correct regarding prophecy, that can't happen until prophecy becomes history. We are only given, at best, half the story if that and a reasonable narrative can be created but one is a fool if they don't give themselves some wiggle room as circumstances may change upon the earth and newer understandings are granted to us by God as part of the knowledge increasing on a church wide basis. The only question is, who is willing enough to be flexible in their eschatology to accept a very possible different narrative then they one have created for themselves? As for the rapture, there are several opinions out there and I would call mine post-persecution because the bible undeniably teaches that we will go through the hard times of judgement consisting of martyrdom and persecution known as the GT. 1 Peter 4:17-18.

 

[marks]

I agree, that's why the "saved" are escorted out of there leaving the unsaved to their fate and this is 'after" the millennium and after satan is loosed and when he has completed his mission of gathering all nations while preparing to defeat God.

God deserts His holy city leaving if for Satan? That's not the way I read it.

Revelation 20:9 KJV
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

They surround the city, and then God destroys them.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I'll focus on the fact the "People" of the Ruler to Come are the Roman Army who destroy the city and the sanctuary, causing desolation until the consummation.

The fact is, there isn't a Roman Army in Israel or Jerusalem causing desolation as you false claim Randy, let alone being on this earth to the future consummation, and you know it

Shows how far one will go in proping up ones desires, against the historical facts

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

The fact is, there isn't a Roman Army in Israel or Jerusalem causing desolation as you false claim Randy, let alone being on this earth to the future consummation, and you know it

Shows how far one will go in proping up ones desires, against the historical facts

Jesus Is The Lord

Apparently you misunderstand? Rome invaded Israel in 70 AD and later. European Civilization continues to dominate in that part of the world to some degree, being that Muslims have been allowed to maintain some control over Israel.

 

[jeffweeder]

I don't drag it out, the bible does.

2Thess 2 doesn't.
The deluding influence is designed for those who are perishing already due to their rejection of the Gospel. This will be the last lie the rejectors of the Gospel will ever embrace and will confirm Gods righteous judgment against them.


9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Trekson]

God deserts His holy city leaving if for Satan? That's not the way I read it.

Revelation 20:9 KJV
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

They surround the city, and then God destroys them.

Much love!

That is a good point, however, Armageddon is described the same way, the armies are called to Har-megiddo, and Christ destroys them w/ his coming. If the armies come against Jerusalem once, why not a second time? One of the two, or both at different times, attacks Israel as described in Zech. 14:2 and God loves Jerusalem just as much at Armageddon as He does at the end of the millennium.

 

[Trekson]

2Thess 2 doesn't.
The deluding influence is designed for those who are perishing already due to their rejection of the Gospel. This will be the last lie the rejectors of the Gospel will ever embrace and will confirm Gods righteous judgment against them.


9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

You don't see a rejection of the gospel or Christ Himself in "both" scenarios? Who do you think the armies of Rev. 20:8 are coming against?

 

[jeffweeder]

You don't see a rejection of the gospel or Christ Himself in "both" scenarios?

They must both refer to the same judgment and condemnation when satan is let loose to go forth in all his power of deception just prior to the second coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Truth7t7]

Apparently you misunderstand? Rome invaded Israel in 70 AD and later. European Civilization continues to dominate in that part of the world to some degree, being that Muslims have been allowed to maintain some control over Israel.

Sure, I'm really convinced

Muslims have no more control over Israel than they do the US, your response is empty in denial

 

[Trekson]

They must both refer to the same judgment and condemnation when satan is let loose to go forth in all his power of deception just prior to the second coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe the bible divides the two. Prior to the second coming there will be the false prophet and anti-christ and then for 1260 days, the man that "was" the a/c will be possessed by satan. The a/c and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire never to bother humanity again but after the millennium, it is satan alone that is loosed, his previous helpers are still in the lake of fire, Rev. 20:10.

 

[jeffweeder]

I believe the bible divides the two. Prior to the second coming there will be the false prophet and anti-christ and then for 1260 days, the man that "was" the a/c will be possessed by satan. The a/c and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire never to bother humanity again but after the millennium, it is satan alone that is loosed, his previous helpers are still in the lake of fire, Rev. 20:10.

Doesn't read that way to me Bro'.
satan is released and becomes fully active after a time of restraint of that man of sin.
satan's (dragons) activity and release in all power of deception gives power to him.



3 I saw one of his heads which seemed to have a fatal wound, but his fatal wound was healed; and the entire earth followed after the beast in amazement. 4 They fell down and worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; they also worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like (as great as) the beast, and who is able to wage war against him?”

 

[marks]

That is a good point, however, Armageddon is described the same way, the armies are called to Har-megiddo, and Christ destroys them w/ his coming. If the armies come against Jerusalem once, why not a second time? One of the two, or both at different times, attacks Israel as described in Zech. 14:2 and God loves Jerusalem just as much at Armageddon as He does at the end of the millennium.

If I just follow the exact wording of each passage, I see two events, at two different times. I know many see them the same, but I don't.

One is destroyed with the sword from Jesus mouth - I understand this to be His Word - while the other is destroyed by fire from heaven. The one enters the city, takes prisoners, rapes, the other destroyed when they surround the city. And there are other differences also.

Much love!

 

[Trekson]

Doesn't read that way to me Bro'.
satan is released and becomes fully active after a time of restraint of that man of sin.
satan's (dragons) activity and release in all power of deception gives power to him.



3 I saw one of his heads which seemed to have a fatal wound, but his fatal wound was healed; and the entire earth followed after the beast in amazement. 4 They fell down and worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; they also worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like (as great as) the beast, and who is able to wage war against him?”

So you don't believe in a millennium then?