Once Saved Always Saved

[marks]

Pay attention! You agree that the passage is talking about being forgiven and then not being forgiven. I don't care what your thinking is about it. The point is Tong made a bold contention that this did not exist in scripture. Now tell him it does! Don't share your personal opinion about it's application. Because it's not about that. This about Tong saying the concept did not exist in scripture, period.

I know what was being said. I'm following the discussion. You aren't fooling me.

The point is, you are using apples to object to his oranges. You know it and I know it. You could do much better to stay on point, but I don't think that serves your agenda.

You blend the old and new covenants, casting doubt against the salvation from God. That's all there is to it.

We'll go round and round til kingdom come, and that won't change. The old covenant, a covenant made with Israel, is not like the new covenant, which is based on better promises.

“ There is no such thing as giving up forgiveness of sins. When one was forgiven of his sins by God, he is forgiven of his sins. That’s a done deed. There is nothing to give up there. More so, nothing conditioned on one’s continuance of faith or whatever.”

Where do you see someone in the Bible "give up forgiveness of sins"?

Where do you see God having forgiven someone their sins, that God later took back His forgiveness?

You cite parables taught by Jesus, teaching and instructing those who were under the Law. And you dissect the details of parables, and derive doctrine from that, parables, and hold to those doctrines even though they are flatly contradicted by passages given to establish our faith in the new covenant.

Apples and oranges.

The thing with parables, they are stories not unfamiliar to the hearer, which contains a truth within it's lines, but not every element is meant to express doctrine.

Consider the "Parable of the Unjust Judge". Jesus compares our Heavenly Father to an "unjust judge". Of course we know that our Father is not in the slightest unjust!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Good grief! This doesn't prove anything about Osas, lol! Everybody knows that if you are risen with Christ (and not backslidden into unbelief) that you will appear with him in glory!

I told you you'd change it. You should believe it as written.

Here is another one you'll have to change:

1 John 3:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Not that I'm recommending changing it. Just to say, you won't be able to reconcile this passage to your assertions without rewriting it.

 

[Grailhunter]

You continue to mix the old and new covenants.

Yes . . . righteousness could be lost under the Law. However, we are not under the Law. So our righteousness is not the righteousness of the Law, it is the righteousness by faith, the righteousness of God by faith.

Talk about it, don't talk about it . . . or talk about Colossians 3:1-4. You seem to be avoiding that.

Much love!

OSAS is not biblical.
OSAS is not early Christian. It is nothing that the post Christian writings are going to promote. No early Christian sect believed in OSAS.
OSAS does not occur during the first millennium..
The only thing that is close to it, is Calvinism...that 1500's and Calvinism is satanic. This belief does not occur in any form for the first 1500 years.
Now this is very popular with the new denomination that dances to the beat of social and leftist political views.

 

[marks]

What's to avoid? Is there something there that says we don't have to keep believing, and that's why you think I'm avoiding it?

Your idea that the born again not remaining born again is flatly contradicted in this passage. Unless you reword it, as you've already demonstrated.

 

[JunChosen]

That's why I've been saying leave the stupid osas debate alone

STUPID? Is it because you have not read 1 Peter 3:15-16?

and just do what the Bible says......KEEP BELIEVING!

Yeah, JUST KEEP BELIEVING? So do the demons and they TREMBLE! However, the words "believe/faith" is a work which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8

That's the part that is crystal clear but which no one talks about. Even the original Osas teaching taught that, lol!

To your knowledge, what is the original teaching of OSAS?

I've noticed that newer Christians don't even know about the original Osas teaching and have strayed far from it into even more absurdity.

From what I've read of your posts in this thread, yourself have really no understanding in the nature of OSAS.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Ezra]

any one lose their salvation over night ?

 

[Waiting on him]

When you meet with your adversary in the way agree with him quickly, so you won’t be thrown in prison.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That passage does not even speak about one giving up forgiveness of sins. Read again. It’s about the question of Peter. It is about giving mercy to a brother who sinned against you just as you were given mercy by God for the sins you committed against Him.

I find often times there are certain ones who will post lot's of references, but not the passage, and when I look up the passage, it doesn't say what they claim.

It makes me wonder, ignorance? Or something else?

Much love!

I think it’s something else. What I observed is that, they cite the verse for the reason that they want to make it appear that their view is biblical. But if one checks out the passage and study it, more often than not, it is taken out of context, and really does not support nor teach their view.

Just like the misuse of the passage that Ferris cited to support his view that one can choose to give up or not give up the forgiveness of his sins. And he does so, only because he wanted that to support his view, not that it really teaches that. He fails to realize that he is making the passage teach of losing one’s salvation by one’s wrong act, or an act of sin. That God changes His mind and take back His word and what mercy He had already granted to one just because of that. That we see God as one who does not keep His word. It is in my view, a very dangerous aftermath of such a misuse of a passage, which portrays God as such.

To those whom God saved and saves, God had predestined them to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. And as it is predestined, that will certainly be accomplished. When we sin, we don’t get to be unforgiven by God of our sins, that then we are saved no longer. But that, God will discipline and chastise us so that we be changed in that regard.

Tong
R2880

 

[Grailhunter]

I think it’s something else. What I observed is that, they cite the verse for the reason that they want to make it appear that their view is biblical. But if one checks out the passage and study it, more often than not, it is taken out of context, and really does not support nor teach their view.

Just like the misuse of the passage that Ferris cited to support his view that one can choose to give up or not give up the forgiveness of his sins. And he does so, only because he wanted that to support his view, not that it really teaches that. He fails to realize that he is making the passage teach of losing one’s salvation by one’s wrong act, or an act of sin. That God changes His mind and take back His word and what mercy He had already granted to one just because of that. That we see God as one who does not keep His word. It is in my view, a very dangerous aftermath of such a misuse of a passage, which portrays God as such.

To those whom God saved and saves, God had predestined them to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. And as it is predestined, that will certainly be accomplished. When we sin, we don’t get to be unforgiven by God of our sins, that then we are saved no longer. But that, God will discipline and chastise us so that we be changed in that regard.

Tong
R2880

Every person that debates you two is opposed to cherry picking....this is what you two do. Everybody tells you to read the whole Bible. I award everyone's patience that has dealt with you two, because you guys have absolutely no regard or respect for the scriptures. Besides Calvinism, which is somewhere between blasphemy and Satanic, your beliefs are brand new. A new fad....a response to social and political views and values...the new denomination. Other than that, OSAS beliefs are not represented in the Bible or Christens history. None of the early Christian writers, some of which were disciples of the Apostles, wrote of the OSAS beliefs. Its all under the influence of the mad man John Calvin and modern social and political values. No body pays any attentions to history! LOL If someone would have preached the OSAS rubbish in the 1600's they would have either tarred and feathered them or burn them at the stake. This is strictly a slithering religion that has snuck in to support sinning.

The neat thing is they lurk in the shadows....Your not going to see them on TV actually preaching their beliefs. RA! RA! Sin some more! You are not going to see them around a kitchen table on one of these TV ministries as they search the Bible looking for scriptures that justify sin....Kids gather around the TV, it is Pastor Sin and his Power of Sin Hour!.... So he sits at the table and reads to the kids, Here ya go kids....this is the scripture that justifies doing drugs....it will be fun! Here is the scripture that justifies murdering millions of babies. Here is the scripture that justifies being a homosexual and look here, here is one for cross dressing! Little Suzie, take your brother in your bedroom and dress him up as a girl and do'em... See here it is all justified....See here don't worry about working, you can always steal...work is too hard kids. Tune in next week for the Power of Sin Hour and we will talk about what you can do with your pets!

All new fad of evil. You are not going to see renaissance paintings of heaven full of evildoers. You are not going to read in the Bible where Christ and Apostles dressed up as girls and went out for a drug party to spread the word.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have your own stash....druggies have the amazing ability to make themselves thing that no one is noticing. Like that, you guys do not know that you are a neon sign for evil....yes people notice you are preaching evil. You are preaching to the scum of the earth and it is sweet candy on Satan's tongue. How many souls will be damned to hell because of what you preach?

 

[Tong2020]

I believe that God also saves those who don't believe in OSAS. (smile) Messed up doctrine is no obstacle for him. Yes?

We know that salvation is of God. And that He gives mercy to whomever He wills to give. And we know that with God everything is already finished. In that sense, once He saved him whom He had given mercy to, then he is saved. Of course, salvation isn’t just the matter of taking him out from the world and take him to heaven. It involves too the transformation of the person to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, which scriptures clearly said, God had predestined to happen to that person. We could just imagine how that process will be for each of those whom He saves. And it would not be the same for every one of them.

Now we see people everywhere profess to be believers or Christians. But only God knows who are His sheep or who are they whom He willed to adopt as His sons and children. It is because of this truth that we take every one who profess to be Christians with the presumption that they are among the sheep. We keep our brotherly relationship with them, and relate with them, just as how Jesus had instructed his disciples, to love one another. It is not our concern that we judge whether they are saved or not. There will be a time for judgment. But now is the time for doing what Jesus told us to do, to preach the gospel, that all the sheep may hear and be found.

So, when there are people who preach another Jesus or a false teaching concerning the gospel that we are told to preach in words and deeds, especially when there are among the professed Christians who we see seem to be falling for such, should we just ignore that and do nothing? I think we should do what the apostles have done in such situation. We should keep reminding one another, of what the gospel is and exhort one another to hold to the gospel that the apostles preached~ the gospel of salvation that is of Jesus Christ, of Grace, of faith. Not that by our holding to the end, that we by that prevent us from losing our salvation, but that by that, we prove ourselves to be true believers and children of God. For those who fall away from the gospel and embrace another, are manifested to be not really belonging among the true children of God.

This I can say, that all that God do and comes from Him is for His glory. So that anything that does not glorify God and glorify another, could not be coming from God. And anything that does not come from God, we should not accept and receive. Rather, let us willingly and lovingly do our best in striving to do things, big or small, common or extraordinary, routine or not, all for the glory of God. If there should be any glory that we want, let it not be that which is from man, but that which is from God.

Messed up doctrine is not pleasing to God nor it is for the glory of God.

Tong
R2881

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not ignoring any point.

Please don’t say I said what I did not actually say. Please use the quote feature.

Why John the baptist sent men to inquire of Jesus if He is the Messiah is exactly because he believes in the Messiah. That was not a matter of faith in the Messiah, but a matter that is regarding the identity of the Messiah.

I am cognizant of the fact that sometimes people ask one question, when they really mean to ask another question. For example, a woman might ask "what do you think of this dress?" she might actually be asking another question such as "can we afford this?" or "do I look fat in this dress?" or "did you forget our anniversary?"

Given the fact that we ask hidden questions, I suspect John was actually asking a different question. Question: Jesus are you the one or should we look for another? Subtext: When are you going to take your rightful place as king? Are you going to begin to reign before I am executed?

Good insights. We sure can take that in a lot of different ways and views. But we could know only as much as scriptures tells us and should take that from there.

If one will observe the preaching of John the baptist, he preached about the Kingdom of God and the Messiah, to repent and believe in Him, for the remission of sins. During his ministry, even after he baptized Jesus and saw signs leading him to think that He was the Messiah, he did not go out to the people telling them that of Jesus, that He is the Messiah. Instead we read that he just went on and continued on doing about his ministry, to call on the people and be baptized with the baptism of repentance. One should consider that when reading about John the baptist. Not that we readily conclude that John the baptist had faith and doubted.

Tong
R2882

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Read the passage again. It’s about Peter’s question, which goes ““Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

....and how the once forgiven person had his forgiveness revoked. Read it! You said that was no where to be found in scripture.

As I have been trying to point out to you, the point of the parable isn’t about the matter of salvation, but what attitude one should have towards a brother.

Now, for the sake of argument, making that parable to support your view, consider the following implications, among others.

1. That God is one who after have granted forgiveness, will take it back.

2. That one’s forgiveness of sins will be taken back when one sins.

3. That one’s forgiveness of sins by God isn’t absolute and that God remembers one’s sins even after having forgiven them.

Those are only a few. What can you say about those?

Tong
R2883

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well, all scriptures matter to me. For all scriptures is important. They are sacred and holy. They are God’s words. All scriptures is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. That actually matters, does it not?

Of course it does. It's just that some things matter and some things don't. 'Keep believing' is what matters. Instead we have a whole Reformed movement in the church with this misplaced concern over whether or not the true believer can stop believing. What counts is that you are believing, lol!

As I said, all things written in scriptures matters to me, even while it seems it don’t for you.

You say “keep believing” is what matters, at least for you. And why? Let me guess, if this is even just a guess. Because by doing so, you stay and remain saved.

As I see it, what matters to you is what is good for you. That’s inherent in man.

If you truly believe that you have been saved by God through the Lord Jesus Christ, then you have nothing to fear regarding that. We should instead move on to be concerned about the things that God had prepared for is to do, to the praise and glory of His name.

God had done so much for us. What else to we need to do for ourselves? Are we not to be occupied no longer in doing things for ourselves?

Tong
R2884

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, if you find that such exhortation applies to you, then there you go.

The day may come when I need that exhortation. Until then it is hidden in my heart.

So you don’t need it now? Why?

What are you thinking that would make you need such exhortation?

Tong
R2885

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That does not refute what I said. Besides you only presume that they truly believed when they first believed.

It does refute what you said. They had genuine saving faith in Christ (Paul himself said so), yet they fell away. But you said that is not the signature of the faith that God gives. You said God's faith is always strong, etc. Well, the fault isn't in God's faith. The fault is in whether people are going to retain God's gift of faith and believe, and continue to believe what God's gift of faith showed them to be true! Just because some people doubt, or go back to unbelief, doesn't mean they didn't have God's genuine gift of faith. The Galatians prove that.

Shows where Paul said they have genuine faith in Christ. It seems to you that Paul knows the hearts of them. Did Paul have such power? Interesting.

Tong
R2886

 

[CadyandZoe]

Good insights. We sure can take that in a lot of different ways and views. But we could know only as much as scriptures tells us and should take that from there.

If one will observe the preaching of John the baptist, he preached about the Kingdom of God and the Messiah, to repent and believe in Him, for the remission of sins. During his ministry, even after he baptized Jesus and saw signs leading him to think that He was the Messiah, he did not go out to the people telling them that of Jesus, that He is the Messiah. Instead we read that he just went on and continued on doing about his ministry, to call on the people and be baptized with the baptism of repentance. One should consider that when reading about John the baptist. Not that we readily conclude that John the baptist had faith and doubted.

Tong
R2882

Yes, both John and Jesus continued to preach "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." What Jesus knew, however, and what John didn't know, is that the fulfillment of the kingdom would be delayed for 2000 years. I always give John and the others the benefit of the doubt seeing that they were attempting to obey and serve God with limited information.

With regard to John's teaching, what do you make of Apollos?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yeah, JUST KEEP BELIEVING? So do the demons and they TREMBLE!

The demons do not trust in Christ. They know about him and the gospel, but they do not trust in it. If you think the believing they do is the believing we do...well...I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the words "believe/faith" is a work which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8

No it's not. Faith comes from God. It's the proof the gospel is true. Trusting/believing in the gospel comes from us. And Paul says there is no boast of self righteousness in that trusting. The church says there is.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

To your knowledge, what is the original teaching of OSAS?

The original Osas teaching from the 1500's says God chooses what person will be created to be a believer and which person will be created to be an unbeliever. Therefore, if you are a believer it's because God purposely made you to be a believer and so you will always be a believer and you will never stop believing, and you will live a holy life. And, personally, I don't care if someone wants to believe that. The important thing is they know that the believer must believe to the very end, and live a holy life. Many people have changed that and now believe that you remain a believer (a saved person) even if you stop believing, and don't live a holy life and go back to your old life of sin. It's absurd. At least the original Osas teaching had some sense about it. The new one, not so much, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your idea that the born again not remaining born again is flatly contradicted in this passage. Unless you reword it, as you've already demonstrated.

If you want to ignore everything else the Bible says about remaining born again you can claim that passage says Osas is true. That's called 'not rightly dividing the word of God'.