The Devil's work

[justbyfaith]

And instructs him to proclaim what he has received
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word;

 

[Philip James]

Yes I believe Jesus.
I believe him when he said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"(Mk 16:16)
But apparently you think Jesus is a liar.

Peter too, I guess?

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."

As well has the whole Church, everywhere, for what 2000 years or so?

Any community that ceases to Baptise, will cease to bear fruit for the Kingdom.

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

P.s. this thread is aptly named.

 

[APAK]

The scriptures (Books of the Bible) draws it authority from its creator, the Father and his dynamic power of his Holy Spirit. Is there any higher authority in existence? Never! No man is an authority even given and written into scripture, unless first given ultimately by the Father.

Why is there confusion on this subject? Unless someone's religion says differently, and makes a person of the Bible equal with the Father or his Son.

Any human authority written in scripture is always subordinate to the Son and especially the Father. If anyone tells you otherwise, then they preach a false doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

Any human authority written in scripture is always subordinate to the Son and especially the Father. If anyone tells you otherwise, then they preach a false doctrine.

Could you rephrase that to say more clearly what you mean by it?

Because, clearly, it is not the preaching of false doctrine to proclaim that all scripture is inspired by the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, etc.

 

[APAK]

Could you rephrase that to say more clearly what you mean by it?

Because, clearly, it is not the preaching of false doctrine to proclaim that all scripture is inspired by the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, etc.

Stop it with the dishonesty again....read 2 Timothy 3:16-17....what you really want to argue about is my use of the Father versus God....get over yourself. You get the gist of my post I'm sure

And I see you have already started another thread on OSAS...with a very flawed OP...want me to comment on it here or on that thread?

 

[Amazed@grace]

Paul explain that in his letter to Timothy

Paul passed on to Timothy what he himself received:
Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us. (2 Tim 1:13-14)

And instructs him to proclaim what he has received
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. (2 Tim 4:1-2)

Paul instructs Timothy to pass the sound teaching and good treasure to faithful people in his turn
So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim 2:1-2)

In first place among these faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching are the bishops:
For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, ……holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents. (Ti 1:7,9)

The apostles left those whom they appointed to their offices - the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the same Holy Spirit.

This is witnessed by the early church as these examples from the first two centuries demonstrate:
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier.... Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry." (Pope Clement, fourth Bishop of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians 42:4-5, 44:1-3 [A.D. 80]).

In the same way all should respect the deacons as they would Jesus Christ, just as they respect the bishop as representing the Father and the priests as the council of God and the college of the Apostles. Apart from these there is nothing that can be called a Church. (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Trallians, AD 107)

"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord" (Hegesippus, Memoirs 4:22:1 [ca. A.D. 180]).

"For all these [heretics] are of much later date than are the bishops to whom the apostles handed over the churches, and this fact I pointed out most carefully in the third book. It is of necessity, then, that these aforementioned heretics, because they are blind to the truth, walk in devious paths, and on this account the vestiges of their doctrines are scattered about without agreement or connection. The path of those, however, who belong to the Church goes around the whole world, for it has the firm tradition of the apostles, enabling us to see that the faith of all is one and the same" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies. 5:20:1 AD 180-199).

"Polycarp was instructed not only by the apostles and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna by the apostles in Asia. I saw him in my early youth, for he tarried a long time and when quite old departed this life in a glorious and most noble martyrdom. He always taught those things which he learned from the apostles and which the Church had handed down and which are true. To these things the churches in Asia bear witness, as do also the successors of Polycarp even to the present time" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:4 AD 180-199)

"After the death of the tyrant, [the apostle John] came back again to Ephesus from the Island of Patmos; and, upon being invited, he went even to the neighboring cities of the pagans, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole churches, and there to ordain to the clerical state such as were designated by the Spirit" ( Clement of Alexandria, Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 42:2 [A.D. 190]).

Yes. It is important, what you shared there, in that we be let to remember the majority of our New Testament is due to the letters, Epistles, of the apostle Paul.
Though there are disputes among scholars as to a minor few and whether or not Paul is their author.

And of course lest we forget other apostles accounts of Jesus and his teachings.

I believe we cannot dismiss the import of the bible in our walk.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Of course Jesus quoted from scripture. It was evidence of the truth of what he was teaching but that is nothing to do with authority.

This does. :)
2 Peter 2:20-21
Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


2 Timothy 13: 16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

 

[Amazed@grace]

This does. :)
2 Peter 2:20-21
Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


2 Timothy 13: 16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

And then there is this, which works perfectly in this debate about the authority, importance, of written scripture. Because it was an issue that came to Jesus attention too.

Eeeee! I just love how the bible is timeless in its wisdom.

Centuries after Jesus walked here, he is teaching us in this thread right now. Because we're now debating what was debated in his day.

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 7 - New English Translation

Breaking Human Tradition

Mark 7:
5 The Pharisees and the experts in the law asked him, “Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with unwashed hands?” 6 He said to them, “Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me.
7 They worship me in vain,
teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.’

8 Having no regard for the command of God, you hold fast to human tradition.”

How's that for authority in scripture? :)

 

[justbyfaith]

And I see you have already started another thread on OSAS...with a very flawed OP...want me to comment on it here or on that thread?

On that thread.

 

[Mungo]

You just contradicted yourself.

If the Bible is authoritative, then it has authority.

No it doesn't. you do not understand the meaning of authority.

 

[Mungo]

The scriptures (Books of the Bible) draws it authority from its creator, the Father and his dynamic power of his Holy Spirit. Is there any higher authority in existence? Never! No man is an authority even given and written into scripture, unless first given ultimately by the Father.

Why is there confusion on this subject? Unless someone's religion says differently, and makes a person of the Bible equal with the Father or his Son.

Any human authority written in scripture is always subordinate to the Son and especially the Father. If anyone tells you otherwise, then they preach a false doctrine.

That may be you opinion. But that is all it is.

 

[Mungo]

Yes. It is important, what you shared there, in that we be let to remember the majority of our New Testament is due to the letters, Epistles, of the apostle Paul.
Though there are disputes among scholars as to a minor few and whether or not Paul is their author.

And of course lest we forget other apostles accounts of Jesus and his teachings.

I believe we cannot dismiss the import of the bible in our walk.

I certainly would not dismiss the importance of the Bible.

 

[Mungo]

This does. :)
2 Peter 2:20-21
Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

That is not about authority. You are confusing authority with authoritative.

2 Timothy 13: 16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Already covered - see post #109

 

[Mungo]

Authority and Authoritative

There seems to be some confusion between authority and authoritative regarding the Bible

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
authoritative
n adjective
1 reliable because true or accurate: an authoritative source.

Authoritative is about information being true and reliable. The Bible is authoritative meaning it is true and reliable; it comes from an authoritative source.

authority
n noun (plural authorities)
1 the power or right to give orders and enforce obedience.

Authority is about the power and legitimacy to act. Authority lies with persons and is given from a person who has it to the one they give it to. The Bible does not have authority. It may record what authority someone has been given but it cannot transmit authority.

Here are some Biblical examples of authority.

Mt 8:5-9
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.”

The centurion’s faith in Jesus stems from his understanding of whose authority Jesus is under. He makes the point that he himself is under authority, and it is from that authority that his own authority flows so that his commands are obeyed. So he recognizes that Jesus is under the authority of God, and with that authority his commands will be obeyed (only speak the word, and my servant will be healed).

Jesus was operating under the authority of the Father. This is why he says:
“Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise". (Jn 5:19)

And
“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me".(Jn 8:28)

Here is another example:
We find Jesus giving authority to the twelve when he sent them out in pairs:
Then Jesus called the twelve apostles together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. (Lk 9:1-2)

Later he does the same with the 70 disciples:
After this the Lord appointed seventy others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs to every town and place where he himself intended to go….. Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you; cure the sick who are there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ (Lk 10:1&9).

When they return they say “Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!”, so presumably he also gave the authority over demons just as he had with the twelve.


Here is a Biblical example of authoritative.
Lk 1:1-4
Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

Luke is explaining the source of his material so that Theophilus may know it comes from an authoritative source and is true and accurate - authoritative.

 

[Behold]

How, pray tell, did I do that?

How did you deny the bible's authority?
By stating that the bible is not the authority, on a public forum.
You said that people are the authority, not the word of God.
You're deceived.

 

[justbyfaith]

No it doesn't. you do not understand the meaning of authority.

Why don't you explain it to me?

Authority and Authoritative

There seems to be some confusion between authority and authoritative regarding the Bible

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
authoritative
n adjective
1 reliable because true or accurate: an authoritative source.

Authoritative is about information being true and reliable. The Bible is authoritative meaning it is true and reliable; it comes from an authoritative source.

authority
n noun (plural authorities)
1 the power or right to give orders and enforce obedience.

Authority is about the power and legitimacy to act. Authority lies with persons and is given from a person who has it to the one they give it to. The Bible does not have authority. It may record what authority someone has been given but it cannot transmit authority.

It seems to me that the Bible has authority because it is authoritative.

It has the power to enforce obedience (Hebrews 4:12) because what is written therein is true and reliable and accurate.

How did you deny the bible's authority?
By stating that the bible is not the authority, on a public forum.
You said that people are the authority, not the word of God.
You're deceived.

No, that is what @Mungo is saying.

In quoting 1 Corinthians 4:20, I was playing "devil's advocate", as I said...that is, I was taking a position not my own in order to stimulate better conversation.

 

[APAK]

That may be you opinion. But that is all it is.

Copy that Mungo, and its also from scripture as you can also read...with some simple deduction in places...that are necessary

 

[Mungo]

Why don't you explain it to me?



It seems to me that the Bible has authority because it is authoritative.

As I think I showed they are different things.

It has the power to enforce obedience (Hebrews 4:12) because what is written therein is true and reliable and accurate.

No, The Bible has no power to enforce obedience.
If you don't obey does it leap off the shelf and bang you on the nose?

 

[justbyfaith]

As I think I showed they are different things.


No, The Bible has no power to enforce obedience.
If you don't obey does it leap off the shelf and bang you on the nose?

Of course a person can fashion their lives so that they never hear about what is written in the word.

But for those of us who go to church and read our Bibles, the word of God acts as a sharpened, two-edged sword and it does indeed enforce obedience.

 

[APAK]

As I think I showed they are different things.


No, The Bible has no power to enforce obedience.
If you don't obey does it leap off the shelf and bang you on the nose?

Two times in one day, a record I must say. The last time I exchanged posts of two or more in one day was on another Forum with you a couple of years ago.

Well Mungo, if you have the Spirit of Christ and Truth within you then scripture certainly can and does provide conformance/cooperation or using the stronger English word that can also be very deceptive 'obedience.' I would never say ENFORCE....that is not the intend and the way the Spirit works within a saved person. If you have caught the Spirit you will know what I'm speaking of..

Now of course if you don't have this indwelt Spirit and only your only naturally born one, I can see why you believe scripture has no power over you. You just don't have it and you cannot be a genuine believer according to scripture....boom!

Great Day..APAK