John 1:1 looked at HONESTLY!

[Eternally Grateful]

Only sinners are "spiritually dead".

1 Timothy 5:6 (NKJV)
6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

Yes because that was the penalty of sin

that’s why Christ had to suffer spiritual death to pay for sin.

the father and the spirit turned their backs on Jesus, because they can not look on the sin that was placed on him, for the first time in eternity, the bond between the father and spirit and the son was broken, because of your and my sin

remember, all the bearing, the punching and maligning did not cause Jesus to cry out, all the pain and suffering his physical body took, which is far worse than anyone can imagine, yet he did not once cry out, until that time when it got dark the suns light stopped shining on that spot, when Jesus cried out. My God my God why have your forsaken me, it was at that moment your sin, my sin the sin of the whole world was placed on his body. At that time, when the father and spirit departed from him is when he screamed (the Greek says he was screaming, he did not just cry out, he screamed!) in his most vulnerable state, because he who was holy and knew no sin became sin for us, his ultimate sacrifice. Far worse than the cross and all the beatings.

this should bring us to our knees

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Somebody else pointed this out; only someone who is not God would consider not being equal to God.

That is, God would not consider being equal to God.

Only someone who was God would even consider this

you have it backwards

he was before Abraham, he was not a created being at his birth

so what was he? An angel?

 

[kcnalp]

The VOICE translation is written in manuscript format and makes explicit the speaker in Is 48:12-16 is Adonai, the Eternal God Almighty.

The ‘me’ in v16 refers to the prophet Isaiah, not the prophet Yeshua.

The VOICE? Is there any Scripture that JW's don't TWIST the Hell out of? Any?

 

[kcnalp]

Yes because that was the penalty of sin

that’s why Christ had to suffer spiritual death to pay for sin.

the father and the spirit turned their backs on Jesus, because they can not look on the sin that was placed on him, for the first time in eternity, the bond between the father and spirit and the son was broken, because of your and my sin

remember, all the bearing, the punching and maligning did not cause Jesus to cry out, all the pain and suffering his physical body took, which is far worse than anyone can imagine, yet he did not once cry out, until that time when it got dark the suns light stopped shining on that spot, when Jesus cried out. My God my God why have your forsaken me, it was at that moment your sin, my sin the sin of the whole world was placed on his body. At that time, when the father and spirit departed from him is when he screamed (the Greek says he was screaming, he did not just cry out, he screamed!) in his most vulnerable state, because he who was holy and knew no sin became sin for us, his ultimate sacrifice. Far worse than the cross and all the beatings.

this should bring us to our knees

Honestly that sounds like Copeland heresy, implying Jesus was a sinner and was "born again" in Hell. lol

 

[Robert Gwin]

You BLASPHEME by calling Jesus Christ THE Eternal Creator God, "a sinner"!!!

Really? How so? First of all Jesus is not the Eternal Creator God, his God Jehovah is the Creator. Please address my question maam? Since you have deified Jesus, then explain why it is that he being God told the mother of James and John that he could not grant them to sit on his right and left? Explain to me why being God that he didn't know the day or hour that he would return?

You see maam, these are very real insinuations, no doubt you would agree that God has the right to grant those things, and Jesus clearly stated that his God and Father knew the day and hour. How do you justify it?

Are you familiar with who Jesus said he was? Do you think he is in error?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Why is the world in trouble if Jesus is God? To me it’s the opposite. If he is mere man we are still dead in our sin. Who but God can take the sin of
Mankind on his flesh?

His whole ministry would be based on lies, we have had millenniums of leaders based on lies, what has been accomplished. Of course, if God actually is a liar, that might account for why the world is as it is.

 

[Wrangler]

Only someone who was God would even consider this

you have it backwards

No. Trinitarians have it backwards in a desperate attempt to pretend we are not reading unitarian text in its entirety. Given that I am Wrangler, I would not consider equality with Wrangler - because it is a given. Only someone who is not Wrangler would think in terms of considering being my equal.

On top of all this, the passage is a negation, that he is NOT considering this. What is he considering? That he is NOT equal.

 

[Wrangler]

The VOICE? Is there any Scripture that JW's don't TWIST the Hell out of? Any?

The entire Bible is unitarian text. It is trinitarians who are twisting it.

I don't know what your obsession is with JW, but neither the VOICE translation nor I am JW.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Are you saying Jesus was a sinner???

If he is God there is no doubt about it, as God doesn't lie. Matter of fact the Bible clearly states:
(Titus 1:2) . . .God, who cannot lie. . .
That is the only thing that God cannot do. Since Jesus stated clearly he could not grant James and John position, nor did he know the day or hour, something is amiss. The only logical thing to conclude is that Jesus is actually what he claimed to be; God's son. Does this seem reasonable to you K?

 

[atpollard]

Somebody else pointed this out; only someone who is not God would consider not being equal to God.

That is, God would not consider being equal to God.

From your signature:
29 Yeshua answered, “The most important is, [Hear, O Isra’el, the LORD our God, the LORD is one],
32 he is one, and that there is no other besides him

From my quoted Scripture (which you so quickly rejected and brushed off):

Jesus ... in the form of God
Jesus ... equal to God

Who is "in the form of God" and "equal to God" yet "there is no other besides" God?

From your signature:
"The trinity is not in the Bible. The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day."

John 10:30-33 [NASB]

"I and the Father are one." The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."​

You are correct, the Monotheistic Jews understood perfectly what Jesus said and reject the truth to this day ... just as you are.

 

[Wrangler]

From your signature:
29 Yeshua answered, “The most important is, [Hear, O Isra’el, the LORD our God, the LORD is one],
32 he is one, and that there is no other besides him

From my quoted Scripture (which you so quickly rejected and brushed off):

No. Just refuted many times before. Doing laps is not always helpful.

Jesus ... in the form of God
Jesus ... equal to God

Who is "in the form of God" and "equal to God" yet "there is no other besides" God?

From your signature:
"The trinity is not in the Bible. The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day."

John 10:30-33 [NASB]

"I and the Father are one." The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."​

​

There you go, pretending being 'on the same page' makes 2 beings, one being. Compare John 10:30-33 to John 17:22. We (along with Jesus) are one with God. This does not make us God.

You are correct, the Monotheistic Jews understood perfectly what Jesus said and reject the truth to this day ... just as you are.

That's fine to assert but do not rely on unitarian text to support trinitarian dogma. You just embarrass yourself.

 

[Daniel Veler]

To the questioner,
You quoted the following:
“ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2- He was in the beginning with God;
3- all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”
You seem to be stuck on the word “with”
Christ told us himself he spoke his Father’s word. What ever he heard from the Father he spoke. Christ went on to say, my Father and I are one, he is in me and I am in him. God was dwelling in Christ this is why in one gospel the angel tells Mary to call Christ Emmanuel, which mean God with us. As God spoke the word in the beginning to create all things it will be the word that ends all things. This is why it is written there is power in the word.

 

[theQuestioneer]

To the questioner,
You quoted the following:
“ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2- He was in the beginning with God;
3- all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”
You seem to be stuck on the word “with”
Christ told us himself he spoke his Father’s word. What ever he heard from the Father he spoke. Christ went on to say, my Father and I are one, he is in me and I am in him. God was dwelling in Christ this is why in one gospel the angel tells Mary to call Christ Emmanuel, which mean God with us. As God spoke the word in the beginning to create all things it will be the word that ends all things. This is why it is written there is power in the word.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel, I'm sure you are aware that Jehovah and Christ are "in" (with) every Christian; they were with Christ's disciples (John 17), so "Immanuel" which Jesus was NEVER called- it was a symbolic name only- posses no problem the Jesus was the son of God (Not 'God-the-Son'- the exact opposite).

Thanks for you peaceful thought!

 

[Daniel Veler]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel, I'm sure you are aware that Jehovah and Christ are "in" (with) every Christian; they were with Christ's disciples (John 17), so "Immanuel" which Jesus was NEVER called- it was a symbolic name only- posses no problem the Jesus was the son of God (Not 'God-the-Son'- the exact opposite).

Thanks for you peaceful thought!

He was never called Jesus either. He was called Joshua. The name Jesus was a Greek translation from the Hebrew name. So the name Jesus is the Greek name. In English it would be Joshua. Just a tidbit.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

First of all Jesus is not the Eternal Creator God, his God Jehovah is the Creator

In the Book of Hebrews chapter 1, we have God the Father address Jesus Christ, firstly in verse 8, where He says:

"and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign"

Even in the Unitarian New Testament by Dr George Noyes, it reads:

"but to the Son: Thy throne O God is for ever and ever"

So, here we have the Father, in direct address to the Son, call Him "God". In the Greek it is, "ὁ Θεὸς", which has the definite artice, and cannot be translated as "god"

Then, in this same chapter in Hebrews, in verses 10-12, the Father continues to address Jesus Christ:

"and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'"

This is direct Creation as the Act of Jesus Christ, as Testified by God the Father. Note, also, that here "Lord", is the equivalent to Yahweh. In fact, these words are from Psalm 102:24:27, which is used for Elohim, Almighty God:

"I say, `My God, take me not up in the midst of my days,' Through all generations are Thine years. Beforetime the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens. They—They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed. And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished."

Now, if Jesus Christ was not The Actual Creator of the entire universe, then the words Spoken by the Father in Hebrews, are a mistake! Which is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[GEN2REV]

In the Book of Hebrews chapter 1, we have God the Father address Jesus Christ, firstly in verse 8, where He says:

"and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign"

Even in the Unitarian New Testament by Dr George Noyes, it reads:

"but to the Son: Thy throne O God is for ever and ever"

So, here we have the Father, in direct address to the Son, call Him "God". In the Greek it is, "ὁ Θεὸς", which has the definite artice, and cannot be translated as "god"

Then, in this same chapter in Hebrews, in verses 10-12, the Father continues to address Jesus Christ:

"and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'"

This is direct Creation as the Act of Jesus Christ, as Testified by God the Father. Note, also, that here "Lord", is the equivalent to Yahweh. In fact, these words are from Psalm 102:24:27, which is used for Elohim, Almighty God:

"I say, `My God, take me not up in the midst of my days,' Through all generations are Thine years. Beforetime the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens. They—They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed. And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished."

Now, if Jesus Christ was not The Actual Creator of the entire universe, then the words Spoken by the Father in Hebrews, are a mistake! Which is IMPOSSIBLE.

Thank you for those verses, BGTF.

I was headed in the same direction with all the times Jesus was worshiped, none of which did He ever say "Do not worship Me."

(Matthew 2:2,11; 14:33; 20:20; 28:17)
(John 9:38)

 

[marks]

No. You are reading into the text doctrine you already have. I have an provided a real world example of how your interpretation is not correct.

I would get my wife a refill is not the same as Being B actually doing it.

You would be doing something for your wife, as opposed to her doing it for herself, that is, to pick up a refill. This seems like clear speech to me, and I'd feel like I knew just what was happening, so long as I accepted that you meant what you said. That you were picking it up. That is was your wife's refill.

John 2:18-22 KJV
18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Here, Jesus promised the Jews a sign, that sign being that He would raise His destroyed body again in three days. Either He meant this or He didn't, wouldn't that be fair to say?

It seems that I'm saying Jesus meant what He said, and you are saying He meant something other than the specific thing He said.

Is that right?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ByGraceThroughFaith, I have been greatly enjoying your posts for a few days now!

 

[theQuestioneer]

ByGraceThroughFaith:
(1)- In the Book of Hebrews chapter 1, we have God the Father address Jesus Christ, firstly in verse 8, where He says: "and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, it violates 'the Trinity' and all common sense that One God tells Another God that he has been given authority and being elevated above the angels.
The simple trick is to look past translators that want to sell books catering to the 'Trinity'~
It was a quote of Ps 45:6- it can be translated as "Your throne, O God" from the OT, or "God is your throne"
(God is the foundation of your rule), which agrees with all scripture.
For, after all the POWER behind Christ is~
Heb 1:3- He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of His nature, upholding the universe by His word of power.

(2)- Jesus Christ was not The Actual Creator of the entire universe, then the words Spoken by the Father in Hebrews, are a mistake! Which is IMPOSSIBLE.

You made the mistake~
Heb 1:2- In these last days He has spoken to us by a son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world.

If you concede your error, we can procced with your others accusations...

 

[theQuestioneer]

John 2:19- Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Here, Jesus promised the Jews a sign, that sign being that He would raise His destroyed body again in three days. Either He meant this or He didn't, wouldn't that be fair to say?
It seems that I'm saying Jesus meant what He said, and you are saying He meant something other than the specific thing He said.

____________________________________________________________________________

I take it you ignore Christ's words?

John 10:17- The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life only to take it up again.
18- No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have AUTHORITY to lay it down and
AUTHORITY to take it up again. This COMMAND I received from my Father.

By dying as the Ransom- it GUARANTEED his resurrection- by his Father- the only TRUE God, who commanded it would be so.
Or do you think Jesus 'raised' himself while ALIVE?