Peter identifies Jesus as our God and Savior

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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And when Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and my God" Jesus didn't deny it nor rebuke Thomas. Is Michael your savior? Jesus is my Savior.

And you're calling Jesus a liar. Thomas didn't believe Jesus a liar. So explain John 20:17 kcnalp. Is Jesus a liar? Is what Jesus said at John 20:17 not true? Because anybody who truly knows scripture knows that the Only True God has no Father or God. There's no one the Only True God answers to, the Only True God has no Father or God.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Teachers of the Trinity doctrine will argue that the Godship of Jesus Christ is proved by the words of the apostle Thomas in John 20: 28. Thomas had told the other apostles that he would not believe that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead until Jesus materialized before him and let him put his finger in the print of the nails by which he had been fastened to the stake and until he thrust his hand into Jesus’ side, where a Roman soldier had jabbed him with a spear to make sure of Jesus’ death. So the following week Jesus reappeared to the apostles and told Thomas to do as he had said, to convince himself. “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.” In the original Greek text this expression literally reads, word for word: “The Lord of me and the God of me.”

Less than two weeks previously Thomas had heard Jesus pray to his heavenly Father and say: “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3) On the fourth day after that prayer, or on his day of resurrection, Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by means of Mary Magdalene. “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.” (John 20:17,18) So from Jesus’ prayer and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus Christ, but his God was the God of Jesus Christ. Also his Father was the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped, namely, his heavenly Father.
 

kcnalp

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And you're calling Jesus a liar. Thomas didn't believe Jesus a liar. So explain John 20:17 kcnalp. Is Jesus a liar? Is what Jesus said at John 20:17 not true? Because anybody who truly knows scripture knows that the Only True God has no Father or God. There's no one the Only True God answers to, the Only True God has no Father or God.
You can keep trying to change the subject but it's still there. Even the NWT confessed that Jesus is God!

NWT John 20:28 " In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”
 
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kcnalp

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Teachers of the Trinity doctrine will argue that the Godship of Jesus Christ is proved by the words of the apostle Thomas in John 20: 28. Thomas had told the other apostles that he would not believe that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead until Jesus materialized before him and let him put his finger in the print of the nails by which he had been fastened to the stake and until he thrust his hand into Jesus’ side, where a Roman soldier had jabbed him with a spear to make sure of Jesus’ death. So the following week Jesus reappeared to the apostles and told Thomas to do as he had said, to convince himself. “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.” In the original Greek text this expression literally reads, word for word: “The Lord of me and the God of me.”

Less than two weeks previously Thomas had heard Jesus pray to his heavenly Father and say: “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3) On the fourth day after that prayer, or on his day of resurrection, Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by means of Mary Magdalene. “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.” (John 20:17,18) So from Jesus’ prayer and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus Christ, but his God was the God of Jesus Christ. Also his Father was the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped, namely, his heavenly Father.
The Trinity doctrine? You mean like Gen 1:26 where God called Himself US and OUR?

How about when Isaiah said:

Isaiah 48:16-17 (NKJV)
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now
the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God,
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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The Trinity doctrine? You mean like Gen 1:26 where God called Himself US and OUR?

How about when Isaiah said:

Isaiah 48:16-17 (NKJV)
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now
the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God,

The Only True God at Genesis 1:26 was speaking to the person you don't believe in, his Only Begotten Son.
 

ChristisGod

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In scripture both Jesus and Jesus Father and God is said to be our Lord and Savior, here at 2 Peter 1:11 it's talking about Jesus Christ being Lord and Savior.

[/USER]
I see you cannot answer a straight question without an enormous CUT N PASTE from the WTS.

But if Christ is the Lord and Savior in 1:11, 2:20 and 3:18 since they are identical in the Greek with 1:1 then you are being dishonest with the text in 1:1 since the only difference is theos/kurios.

So either every one of those passages are describing 1 person if one is being HONEST with the text or they are describing 2 persons in all the texts. Your position is inconsistent. bias and dishonest which is Christ who is both our God and Savior/ Lord and Savior. He is called our great God and Savior in Titus 2:13 as well. The One who is always returning/coming back is the Son and never the Father. The parousia/epiphinea are the 1 event when Christ Returns to this earth at His 2nd Coming. Titus refers to that event when Jesus returns as our Great God and Savior. The Father NEVER ONCE in Scripture is referred to as the One who is returning ( epiphenia).

Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming


James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


Epiphenia

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Timothy 6:14
14
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Conclusion: end of debate Christ is our Great God and Savior who is returning at His 2nd Coming the parousia/epiphenia.
 
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kcnalp

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You haven't proved anything to me from the scriptures except how you will twist a scripture or take it out of context to try and make it fit in your false doctrines.
How does asking you if Michael is your savior "twist a scripture or take it out of context"? I wasn't taught at Kingdom Hall. I don't know how to twist Scripture. I leave that for those brainwashed by Kingdom Hall.
 

BreadOfLife

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The scripture Titus 2:13 says:
Of the Great God and of [the] Savior of Us, Christ Jesus." In Greek it's written:
τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
(tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ Khri·stouʹ I·e·souʹ)

Some translations of this scripture are:

1934 The Riverside New Testament, Boston and New York translates this scripture: “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

1935 A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, New York and London says: “of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus”

1950 New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures , Brooklyn translates it as: "of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

1957 La Sainte Bible, by Louis Second, Paris translates it as: “of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ”

1970 The New American Bible, New York and London translates it as: “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

1972 The New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips New York translates it as: “of the great God and of Christ Jesus our saviour”

In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Acts 13:50; 15:22; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 6:13; 2 Timothy 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.) According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·neʹ] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”

A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·lounʹtas kai a·go·raʹzon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·teʹros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·monʹ] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he doʹxa tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to so·teʹros he·monʹ] changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·osʹ], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·taʹ ten khaʹrin tou The·ouʹ he·monʹ kai ky·riʹou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to ky·riʹou] makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”

Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual. This obviously would include the scripture 2 Peter 1:1 especially when verse 2 of 2 Peter chapter 1 makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus
First of all - "Jehovah" is a word that was invented by a 13th century Spanish monk named Raymundo Martini. He took the Hebrew "YHVH" and added vowels due to the way it was pronounced in Hebrew ("Yaweh"). In Latin (later, English) English, it would be rendered as "JHVH" - and when he added an "e", "o" and "a", he got "Jehovah". In any case - it's NOT a Biblical word.

Secondly - 2 Peter 1:1 states:
"To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

Here is the phrase in question, "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ in the Greek:
θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

According to the Granville Sharp's Rule - which is used by the majority of Biblical and Greek scholarship - this verse CANNOT be rendered as referring to ANYBODY other than Jesus Christ.

The Statement of the rule is as follows:
"When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person." (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana& Mantey, p. 147)

So, if you have you have two nouns, and they are NOT proper names (like Peter, or Paul, or John), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word "and", and the first noun has the article "the", while the second does NOT - this means that BOTH nouns are referring to the SAME person.
 

kcnalp

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The scripture Titus 2:13 says:
Of the Great God and of [the] Savior of Us, Christ Jesus." In Greek it's written:
τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
(tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ Khri·stouʹ I·e·souʹ)

Some translations of this scripture are:

1934 The Riverside New Testament, Boston and New York translates this scripture: “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

1935 A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, New York and London says: “of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus”

1950 New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures , Brooklyn translates it as: "of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

1957 La Sainte Bible, by Louis Second, Paris translates it as: “of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ”

1970 The New American Bible, New York and London translates it as: “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

1972 The New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips New York translates it as: “of the great God and of Christ Jesus our saviour”

In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Acts 13:50; 15:22; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 6:13; 2 Timothy 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.) According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·neʹ] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”

A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·lounʹtas kai a·go·raʹzon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·teʹros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·monʹ] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he doʹxa tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to so·teʹros he·monʹ] changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·osʹ], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·taʹ ten khaʹrin tou The·ouʹ he·monʹ kai ky·riʹou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to ky·riʹou] makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”

Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual. This obviously would include the scripture 2 Peter 1:1 especially when verse 2 of 2 Peter chapter 1 makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus
Did Kingdom Hall convince you that you're a Greek expert?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I see you cannot answer a straight question without an enormous CUT N PASTE from the WTS.

But if Christ is the Lord and Savior in 1:11, 2:20 and 3:18 since they are identical in the Greek with 1:1 then you are being dishonest with the text in 1:1 since the only difference is theos/kurios.

So either every one of those passages are describing 1 person if one is being HONEST with the text or they are describing 2 persons in all the texts. Your position is inconsistent. bias and dishonest which is Christ who is both our God and Savior/ Lord and Savior. He is called our great God and Savior in Titus 2:13 as well. The One who is always returning/coming back is the Son and never the Father. The parousia/epiphinea are the 1 event when Christ Returns to this earth at His 2nd Coming. Titus refers to that event when Jesus returns as our Great God and Savior. The Father NEVER ONCE in Scripture is referred to as the One who is returning ( epiphenia).

Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming


James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


Epiphenia

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Timothy 6:14
14
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Conclusion: end of debate Christ is our Great God and Savior who is returning at His 2nd Coming the parousia/epiphenia.[/QUOTE\]

You can dislike where I get my information all you want, that's your right but I could care less how you feel or think about the WTS. Plain simple fact I believe you disagree with Scripture, which is your right, but I think you're making a big mistake, so be it.
John 17:3; 20:17; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Timothy 5:21;
John 8:17,18; John 6:38; 17:16; Luke 20:9-16; Matthew 20:23
All these scriptures above not only show that God and Jesus are separate distinct persons but that God who is the Father of Jesus is superior to him.
 
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