JW's, SDA's, Unitarians and Mormons

[Jane_Doe22]

Misconceptions by Mormons themselves, or their enemies? What does the LDS church teach then regarding this inheriting or receiving ones own planet, what is the truth of that concept?

Mmmm. I was told something similar by my wife's cousin who is Mormon. I just assumed it was a genuine belief among Mormons. Now I'm confused that Jane is saying it's wrong. I don't know who's wrong... Us or the Mormons themselves?

It's inaccurate.

Official essay on the subject, underlining mine for emphasis:

"How do Latter-day Saints envision exaltation?

Since human conceptions of reality are necessarily limited in mortality, religions struggle to adequately articulate their visions of eternal glory. As the Apostle Paul wrote, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” These limitations make it easy for images of salvation to become cartoonish when represented in popular culture. For example, scriptural expressions of the deep peace and overwhelming joy of salvation are often reproduced in the well-known image of humans sitting on their own clouds and playing harps after death. Latter-day Saints’ doctrine of exaltation is often similarly reduced in media to a cartoonish image of people receiving their own planets.

A cloud and harp are hardly a satisfying image for eternal joy, although most Christians would agree that inspired music can be a tiny foretaste of the joy of eternal salvation. Likewise, while few Latter-day Saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet, most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities...."

Becoming Like God

 

[dev553344]

Mmmm. I was told something similar by my wife's cousin who is Mormon. I just assumed it was a genuine belief among Mormons. Now I'm confused that Jane is saying it's wrong. I don't know who's wrong... Us or the Mormons themselves?

I just read online that the church is denying that teaching. So I'm also confused.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I just read online that the church is denying that teaching. So I'm also confused.

Again, the planet thing isn't accurate.

Still that statement is RAMPANT in anti-Mormon circles. To a much lesser degree, there are even some actual Mormons who get their wires crossed in the regard (just like every group has folks that get their wires crosses on many subjects).

 

[dev553344]

It's inaccurate.

Official essay on the subject, underlining mine for emphasis:

"How do Latter-day Saints envision exaltation?

Since human conceptions of reality are necessarily limited in mortality, religions struggle to adequately articulate their visions of eternal glory. As the Apostle Paul wrote, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” These limitations make it easy for images of salvation to become cartoonish when represented in popular culture. For example, scriptural expressions of the deep peace and overwhelming joy of salvation are often reproduced in the well-known image of humans sitting on their own clouds and playing harps after death. Latter-day Saints’ doctrine of exaltation is often similarly reduced in media to a cartoonish image of people receiving their own planets.

A cloud and harp are hardly a satisfying image for eternal joy, although most Christians would agree that inspired music can be a tiny foretaste of the joy of eternal salvation. Likewise, while few Latter-day Saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet, most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities...."

Becoming Like God

I think the concept could easily be understood from the fact that Mormons believe they will be "joint heirs" with Jesus. Most religions view Jesus as God. So in fact Mormons would have to become a god to be "joint heirs" with Jesus. Otherwise they're not actually "joint heirs".

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I think the concept could easily be understood from the fact that Mormons believe they will be "joint heirs" with Jesus. Most religions view Jesus as God. So in fact Mormons would have to become a god to be "joint heirs" with Jesus. Otherwise they're not actually "joint heirs".

Becoming one with God / like God / Joint heirs with Christ / sharing all that the Father has = 100% believed.

But what is getting off the rails is when anyone implies that God is being replaced, or making it sound like being a disciple of Christ is about getting super-powers.

 

[dev553344]

Becoming one with God / like God / Joint heirs with Christ / sharing all that the Father has = 100% believed.

But what is getting off the rails is when anyone implies that God is being replaced, or making it sound like being a disciple of Christ is about getting super-powers.

I read on the wiki article that Mormons use Romans 8:17 and Revelation 21:7 to support their idea of being "Joint Heirs". And from that scripture one could easily make all kinds of ideas:

Romans 8:17

King James Version

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I personally make the distinction that I will be an Angel of God if I get saved thru Christ Jesus. And that to me is a Joint Heir, to be resurrected and glorified above man. And while being an angel is also being a god-like being compared to man. Angels act with God's power to be god-like: having the appearance of lightning, having power over nature, creating earthquakes upon arrival. It is far from being God. God's spirit is in the universe and he has created the universe from his spirit and that spirit has mass and therefore energy when mingled with the universe 10^53 kilograms as currently known to science. A man weighs 80kg. So the universe weighs about 10^52 humans in comparison.

 

[Brakelite]

It's inaccurate.

Official essay on the subject, underlining mine for emphasis:

"How do Latter-day Saints envision exaltation?

Since human conceptions of reality are necessarily limited in mortality, religions struggle to adequately articulate their visions of eternal glory. As the Apostle Paul wrote, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” These limitations make it easy for images of salvation to become cartoonish when represented in popular culture. For example, scriptural expressions of the deep peace and overwhelming joy of salvation are often reproduced in the well-known image of humans sitting on their own clouds and playing harps after death. Latter-day Saints’ doctrine of exaltation is often similarly reduced in media to a cartoonish image of people receiving their own planets.

A cloud and harp are hardly a satisfying image for eternal joy, although most Christians would agree that inspired music can be a tiny foretaste of the joy of eternal salvation. Likewise, while few Latter-day Saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet, most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities...."

Becoming Like God

Okay. My understanding is a little clearer. You believe in the
A pre-existence of humans
B universalism
C that men can evolve in the after life to be gods in their own right and therefore
D have a certain dominion over other life forms or parts of creation according to their worthiness.
E the rest have eternal life but in a somewhat reduced fashion and these ideas are the result of
F visions of Smith.
G these ideas were supposedly in line with the early church fathers but over the centuries, lost.

 

[Brakelite]

or making it sound like being a disciple of Christ is about getting super-powers.

The essay you cited said that we are given creative power.

I will be an Angel of God if I get saved thru Christ Jesus.

We will not be angels. Angels are a completely different form of creation... We shall remain human forever... Just as Christ is also and shall remain so.

 

[dev553344]

We will not be angels. Angels are a completely different form of creation... We shall remain human forever... Just as Christ is also and shall remain so.

Clearly we will be angels. Michael the arch angel will live on this earth as we all have. The scripture is merely making a simple statement not to be dissected.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I read on the wiki article that Mormons use Romans 8:17 and Revelation 21:7 to support their idea of being "Joint Heirs". And from that scripture one could easily make all kinds of ideas:

Romans 8:17

King James Version

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I personally make the distinction that I will be an Angel of God if I get saved thru Christ Jesus. And that to me is a Joint Heir, to be resurrected and glorified above man. And while being an angel is also being a god-like being compared to man. Angels act with God's power to be god-like: having the appearance of lightning, having power over nature, creating earthquakes upon arrival. It is far from being God. God's spirit is in the universe and he has created the universe from his spirit and that spirit has mass and therefore energy when mingled with the universe 10^53 kilograms as currently known to science. A man weighs 80kg. So the universe weighs about 10^52 humans in comparison.

“Species” (for want of a better term) isn’t really a focus here. Rather the focus is becoming one with God- we are indeed saved by Him. That’s central to the entire atonement, see John 17.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Okay. My understanding is a little clearer. You believe in the
A pre-existence of humans
B universalism
C that men can evolve in the after life to be gods in their own right and therefore
D have a certain dominion over other life forms or parts of creation according to their worthiness.
E the rest have eternal life but in a somewhat reduced fashion and these ideas are the result of
F visions of Smith.
G these ideas were supposedly in line with the early church fathers but over the centuries, lost.

A: Pre-existence: Yes
B: universalism; no.
C: “Evolution “ is not an accurate word. Rather, God has the power to make filthy things white, and raise up the broken.
D: this is not you your own power to do whatever the heck you want. Rather, it is God’s power to do God’s will. This is part of being His servant.
F. This point is also poorly put, but I’ll stay focused on the others.

The essay you cited said that we are given creative power.

I’m this life, disciple of Christ has the power to work miracles in His name according to His will. But being a disciple is not about getting super powered to heal or make mountains move- obviously. It’s about love of God and following out of that love.

And it’s the same in the hereafter too: it’s first and foremost about love of God and following out of that love.

 

[kcnalp]

Can you tell me why not, without any assumptions? In other words, based on scripture alone.

Michael cannot possibly be Jesus because Jesus is called our Savior many times in the Bible. God is also called our Savior many times in the Bible. Obviously Jesus and God are the same, our Savior. How many times is Michael called our Savior? NONE! Not even once!

 

[quietthinker]

@kcnalp Some folk call John, Jack and some call William, Bill....you are called kcnalp; is it possible you might have another name? I guess there is, so don't stress; Jesus is known by many names....same guy different situation/circumstances....and when the time comes and he's your buddy, you can say, hey Mick...and then you'll know.

 

[ReChoired]

But you cannot have it both ways.

Why not? All the Reformers did. I just cited all their work. It was a key contention with Romanism and the 'angel' 'worship' (dulia, as they say).

 

[ReChoired]

If memory serves, their belief isn’t that Jesus was created as the angel Michael, but that Jesus took the form of an angel in the OT just as Jesus took the form of a man in the new.

Jesus never "took the form" of a created angel. Scripture is clear about that, see:

Php_2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Heb_2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.​

So, "form of God", and "form of a servant ... likeness of men", and "verily he took not on him the nature of angels (context, created angels, like Gabriel)". Even when Jesus/Michael (uncreated, eternal Son) came with other angels (messengers, like Gabriel and 'Herald', these being created even by Jesus), on behalf of the Father in Heaven, when speaking to Abraham. He was in the "form of God" - Genesis 18:1,27, 19:24, etc.

 

[ReChoired]

@kcnalp Some folk call John, Jack and some call William, Bill....you are called kcnalp; is it possible you might have another name? I guess there is, so don't stress; Jesus is known by many names....same guy different situation/circumstances....and when the time comes and he's your buddy, you can say, hey Mick...and then you'll know.

kcnalp is simply "Planck" backwards.

 

[ReChoired]

Michael cannot possibly be Jesus because Jesus is called our Savior many times in the Bible. God is also called our Savior many times in the Bible. Obviously Jesus and God are the same, our Savior. How many times is Michael called our Savior? NONE! Not even once!

Are there any other persons called "saviour" in the Bible? (Judges 6:14; 2 Kings 13:5) Does it make them God? No. However, what does the name Michael mean?

Would you equate being "delivered" as being "saved" (2 Samuel 19:9; 1 Chronicles 11:14' Psalms 33:16):

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

 

[kcnalp]

Are there any other persons called "saviour" in the Bible? (Judges 6:14; 2 Kings 13:5) Does it make them God? No. However, what does the name Michael mean?

Would you equate being "delivered" as being "saved" (2 Samuel 19:9; 1 Chronicles 11:14' Psalms 33:16):

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

Who else in the Bible is your Savior? Jesus is mine. God is my Savior! Where is Michael called our Savior in the Bible? He isn't! Michael is barely even mentioned in the Bible! Only 2 times in the NT!

 

[Brakelite]

Are there any other persons called "saviour" in the Bible? (Judges 6:14; 2 Kings 13:5) Does it make them God? No. However, what does the name Michael mean?

Would you equate being "delivered" as being "saved" (2 Samuel 19:9; 1 Chronicles 11:14' Psalms 33:16):

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

Who else in the Bible is your Savior? Jesus is mine. God is my Savior! Where is Michael called our Savior in the Bible? He isn't! Michael is barely even mentioned in the Bible! Only 2 times in the NT!

Look up any dictionary and you will discover that Savior and Deliverer are synonyms.
KJV 2 Samuel 22:2-4
2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
Daniel 12:1 as cited above is our salvation and deliverance at the second coming.
KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Tell me. Who's voice raises the dead to life?

 

[ReChoired]

Mmmm. I was told something similar by my wife's cousin who is Mormon. I just assumed it was a genuine belief among Mormons. Now I'm confused that Jane is saying it's wrong. I don't know who's wrong... Us or the Mormons themselves?

Why believe one who is deceived and deceiving? They do not even acknowledge in the LDS literature that the 7th day is the Sabbath in all their sources, and simply "ignores" me now.

Actual and official LDS sources, say:

The official Mormon student manual called Doctrines of the Gospel says this: "[A] man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring."​

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48 (in the French, see pages 54-55 (internal pagination) - Doctrines du salut Vol. 2: sermons et ecrits de Joseph Fielding Smith /compiles par Bruce R. McConkie : Smith, Joseph Fielding 1876-1972 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ):

"... The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this. ..."

"... "... Le Père nous a promis que par notre fidélité nous serons bénis en ayant la plénitude de son royaume. En d'autres termes, nous aurons le bon= heur de devenir comme lui. Pour devenir comme lui, nous devons avoir tous les pouvoirs de la divinité; ainsi un homme et une femme quand ils seront glorifiés auront des enfants d'esprit qui finalement iront sur une terre comme celle où nous nous trouvons et passeront par la même sorte d'expérience, étant sujets à l'état mortel et, s'ils sont fidèles, ils recevront aussi la plénitude de l'exaltation et participeront aux mêmes bénédictions. Il n'y a pas de fin à ce développement, il continuera éter= nellement. Nous deviendrons des dieux et nous aurons juridiction sur des mondes, et ces mondes seront peuplés par notre propre postérité. Nous aurons pour cela une éternité sans fin 34. ..." ..."​

I wouldn't believe anything Jane Doe says. She simply cites a personal work, that is not accepted by the LDS Quorum, neither body. It's what is called a save-face piece.