Now that you have defined John 17:3, can you explain/expound on Deuteronomy 6:4 which has the same context as John 17:3?
To God Be The Glory
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Now that you have defined John 17:3, can you explain/expound on Deuteronomy 6:4 which has the same context as John 17:3?
To God Be The Glory
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
There is absolutely no trinity reference in John 17:5 or anywhere in the entire Bible.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Appeal to Emotion & Force. I am is a common statement used today. I do believe that Jesus is he - the Messiah, for which he was crucified. No where is he claiming to be God, despite Trinitarians desperate project their doctrine onto unitarian text.
English is my second language but through His grace have allowed and given to me although I do not understand that He is one God, yet He subsists in three different persons as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Already in Genesis 1:1 we see this 3-in-1 formula as we read, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. The word "God" is the plural Hebrew word "Elohim."
In Hebrew there are three numbers:
1. Singular means one.
2. Dual means two.
3. Plural means three or more.
In English there are only two numbers: singular and plural.
1. Singular means one.
2. Plural means two or more.
Grammatically correct therefore we can render Ge. 1:1 this way:
In the beginning, Gods [Elohim plural] they created [singular] the heaven and the earth.
Not only in Ge. 1:1 can see the plurality of the Godhead but also in Ge. 1:26:
"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."
But note that the pronoun in verse 27 is singular.
Indeed God is One God and although we do not understand, Scripture also teaches that God subsists as three different persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
To God Be The Glory
t
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Plural is not limited to 3. You are reading into unitarian text your trinitarian doctrine.
I've never said plural is limited to just three rather the Hebrew plural means three or more.
How can you understand the word of God when you can't even read and comprehend a simple post?
But for the sake of those who peruse these forums I will share a beautiful example [one of many] of the 3-in-1 concept, but will speak of two persons instead of three.
Genesis 2:24 is a beautiful illustration here where the Hebrew word “echad” is used and translated as “one.” The two shall be one flesh! Now the two (plural) shall be (plural) one (singular) flesh. Obviously, the word of God does not mean that when a man knows his wife that there shall after that be only one body, only one personality, and no longer two people. No, the idea is that plurality of persons shall continue to exist as separate and distinct personality, but they will share a “oneness” from the results of their intimate knowledge of one another.
We might also observe here for the technical term one only, or one alone and that’s “yahid,” but that is not the term used in Deuteronomy 6:4 or these other passages noted where it speaks of unity, or plurality, or the fact that God exists in three persons is ONE GOD.
To God Be The Glory
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Plural is more than one, not three. Beyond that, 'or more' means it is a desperate attempt to anchor it to 3.
That's the wrong reference - it should be John 8:24.
No, he is not saying that he was Yahweh, he was saying 'if you don't believe that I am who I say Iam, then you will not have your sins forgiven before you die'. He could not be claiming to be Yahweh/Jehovah because the very next verse says:
(John 8:25) They said therefore to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.
So if he was claiming to be Yahweh by using the Hebrew name of God (and yet this Scripture was written in Greek and Jesus probably spoke the words in Aramaic) then why did the Jews then ask him "Who are you?". And what had Jesus been saying to them from the beginning of his ministry? He repeatedly told them that he was the Son of Man (about 80 times) and the son of God (about 5 times), and he also claimed to be the Messiah (John 4:25-26, Matthew 16:20, Matthew 26:63-64, John 17:3). He never claimed to be God; he claimed to be God's son and the Christ (anointed) of God.
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Deuteronomy 6:4 -
(TLV) “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
(WEB) Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is one.
(ISV) "Listen, Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
(GNB) "Israel, remember this! The LORD—and the LORD alone—is our God.
(WEB) Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is one.
(ISV) "Listen, Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
(GNB) "Israel, remember this! The LORD—and the LORD alone—is our God.
So I understand it to mean that Yahweh is the God of Israel, and that He is a single being - he doesn't share being their God with anybody else. It could also be translated as the ISV translates it, to mean that Yahweh alone is their God, that they do not have any other Gods. Other Scripture confirms the first interpretation, that Yahweh alone is the one almighty God, e.g. 1 Corinthians 8 (WEB):
4) Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5) For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”;
6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
5) For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”;
6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
The Cambridge Bible notes say:
[the Lord our God is one Lord] As the R. V. marg. shows, this is one of four possible translations of the elliptic Hebrew: Jehovah our-God, Jehovah One. The other three are: Jehovah our God, Jehovah is One; Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is One; Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone. But the four are resolvable into these two: First, Jehovah our God is One, an expression of His unity, appropriate at a time when we know from Jeremiah that by the multiplication of His shrines the people of Judah conceived Him, as Baal or Ashtoreth was conceived, not as One, but as many deities with different characteristics and powers over different localities, cp. Jeremiah 2:28. Second, Jehovah is our God alone: i.e. Israel’s only God, cp. Zechariah 14:9; Song of Solomon 6:9; 1 Chronicles 29:1. These passages are all post-exilic, and in the first two one may mean unique, but that here it means only (for Israel) is probable from the following verse. Some interpreters take the verse as ‘a great declaration of monotheism’ (so Driver). But had that been the intention of the writer the clause would have run ‘Jehovah is the God, Jehovah alone.’ The use of the term our-God shows that the meaning simply is Jehovah is Israel’s only God. Nothing is said as to the existence or non-existence of other gods, and the verse is therefore on an equality with Deuteronomy 5:7, the First Commandment, and with Deuteronomy 7:9, which implies no more than that Jehovah is a or the God indeed; cp. the curious Deuteronomy 4:19 b which seeks to reconcile His sovereignty with the fact that other gods are worshipped by other nations. Only in Deuteronomy 4:35; Deuteronomy 4:39 does an explicit declaration of monotheism appear in Deuteronomy; it is to be remembered, however, that on other grounds the post-exilic date of these verses is possible[126]. At the same time the phrase used here lends itself readily to the expression of an absolute monotheism, which later ages of a wider faith read into it. It is interesting to compare with our verse St Paul’s statement 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; we know that no idol is anything in the world and that there is no God but one; for though there be that are called gods …; as there be gods many and lords many, yet to us there is One God, the Father, of whom are all things. Note even here yet to us!
[126] This is not meant to imply that some in Israel had not thrown off belief in the reality of other gods before the Exile. Jeremiah certainly had: e.g. Deuteronomy 2:11.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR."
True. The LORD is Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Now the Father is beside Him in being One, but the Father is not the Saviour instead of Him, because He shed no blood on the cross, by which we are saved.
Unitarians have no forgiveness of sins, not being washed in the blood of the Lamb, because they drink not His blood by faith, which offends them with disgust.
Jesus is the only wise God and Saviour, the LORD of LORDS and KING of KINGS. The Father is the true and wise God, but only the Son is the wise God and Saviour.
I love the Father as I love the Son, but the Father is not my Saviour. The Son is. For this cause the Father honors the Son as the only Saviour, and they who honor not the Son, also honor not the Father. They that honor not the Son have neither the Son nor the Father, because they don't believe the Son, nor drink His blood.
Unitarians are wanna be Old Covenant Jews, who reject drinking the blood of the Son as they do, but give His name lip service, because they suppose they have forgiveness of sins by symbolic blood.
True. The LORD is Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Now the Father is beside Him in being One, but the Father is not the Saviour instead of Him, because He shed no blood on the cross, by which we are saved.
Unitarians have no forgiveness of sins, not being washed in the blood of the Lamb, because they drink not His blood by faith, which offends them with disgust.
Jesus is the only wise God and Saviour, the LORD of LORDS and KING of KINGS. The Father is the true and wise God, but only the Son is the wise God and Saviour.
I love the Father as I love the Son, but the Father is not my Saviour. The Son is. For this cause the Father honors the Son as the only Saviour, and they who honor not the Son, also honor not the Father. They that honor not the Son have neither the Son nor the Father, because they don't believe the Son, nor drink His blood.
Unitarians are wanna be Old Covenant Jews, who reject drinking the blood of the Son as they do, but give His name lip service, because they suppose they have forgiveness of sins by symbolic blood.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
They will tell you the only glory the Word had with the Father, was that which the Father gave Him, when the Father created Him.
They have no Spiritual sense, because they can only think carnally. The Father and the Son being one in unity means nothing to them, not being in the body of the Son and not being in unity with any that are washed in His blood.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Marriage was the first prophetic declaration of man by the Spirit of God, which reveals the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being perfectly One in unity.
Without one or the other there is no marriage. Marriage only exists where there are two unified as one flesh. And so with God, who only exists where there are two unified as One Spirit.
When the Son gave out His breath on the cross, there was still two as God: the Father and the Holy Spirit. There was three from everlasting, and then two with the death of the Son, and now three again with His resurrection.
And now One of them that are God is a man: the man Christ Jesus, which is why His body is likened to the Bride, and all believers will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb. Only them that are washed in His blood and honor Him as Saviour.
Unitarians have no place with God at His marriage supper, because they have no honor for the Son. Because the Son died on the cross and was separated from the Father and the Holy Spirit, they reject Him as a true God entirely.
The Son died for us, and for this cause they reject Him.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Because the Son died on the cross for us, unitarians reject Him as God, because they have no sense of Scripture and Spirit, and say the true God cannot possibly become a man on earth nor die on a cross.
They claim with their lips an Almighty and all powerful Creator of all things, but from the heart declare He cannot possibly become a man, because they have no Spirit of God to bear witness to the Father and the Son being One.
Being carnally minded only, they reject the true God who died for us, since they cannot possibly understand Him providing Himself a sacrifice and burnt offering for our sins, and so they reject Him as such.
"These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit." (Jude)
They claim with their lips an Almighty and all powerful Creator of all things, but from the heart declare He cannot possibly become a man, because they have no Spirit of God to bear witness to the Father and the Son being One.
Being carnally minded only, they reject the true God who died for us, since they cannot possibly understand Him providing Himself a sacrifice and burnt offering for our sins, and so they reject Him as such.
"These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit." (Jude)
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"The LORD Jehovah is the only God, not Jesus."
"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." (1 John 2)
"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." (1 John 2)
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"The LORD Jehovah is the only God, not Jesus."
The only thing unitarians take a stand on is 'not Jesus'. Other than that, they have nothing. No Son, no blood of the Lamb, no marriage supper of the Lamb.
The cross and the blood of Jesus are an offense to them. Their honor of His name is symbolic only, even as they say His blood is symbolic only.
They are fully carnal who cannot see past their own physical noses and minds.
The only thing unitarians take a stand on is 'not Jesus'. Other than that, they have nothing. No Son, no blood of the Lamb, no marriage supper of the Lamb.
The cross and the blood of Jesus are an offense to them. Their honor of His name is symbolic only, even as they say His blood is symbolic only.
They are fully carnal who cannot see past their own physical noses and minds.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No. I’m saying I am an expert in concepts - regardless of what language the concept originates.
Some concepts are invalid like trinitarianism, dry water, square circles, McCarthyism, communism, fascism, feminism, Equality, life after death, the atom, eugenics, flat Earth, Earth-centered solar system, man-made Global Warming, Black Lives Matter, etc.
Some things, like the atom, are not conceptually invalid but rather what they called ‘not divisible’ actually is divisible. You must be unhappily married to imply 2 is not plural - in any language.
JunChosen, you can try to pull the wool over my eyes in using different languages to contradict concepts. It won’t work with me. Study the sentence in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28. Jesus is not God (but is God’s Anointed).
Thank you for the reference.
I beg to differ.
1. Jesus said, "The Father and I are one."
2. He that hath seen me has seen the Father. John 14:9
3. The Father addressed His Son; "Thy throne O, God is forever and ever." Hebrews 1:8.
The most dramatic is:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
To God Be The Glory
But that does not mean that Jesus and his Father are the same person, nor that they are a team or partnership who collectively claim to be our God (and there's definitely no indication of a threesome in that statement).
The verse that you quote is John 10:30. Note the immediately following verses:
30) I and the Father are one.”
31) Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32) Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?”
33) The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
34) Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’
35) If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken),
36) do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
So here Jesus is denying that he was God, and is claiming to be God's son. Therefore in verse 30 he can't be claiming that he was God - it must have another meaning. It is quite obvious that he means that he is in unity and harmony with his Father. It's just the same meaning as he used in John 17 when in prayer to God he said:
11) ... Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
20) Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who will believe in me through their word,
21) that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
22) The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.
If you take verse 30 to mean that Jesus is God then you must also believe that all Christians are God too, or that Jesus was praying for all Christians to become God. Jesus is actually praying for unity among Christians; that we all have the same spirit, sentiment, purpose, etc., that we are in harmony, agreement, and in accord with each other and with God - just the same as Jesus is in harmony and accord with God.
7) If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.”
8) Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
9) Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, ‘Show us the Father?’
10) Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12) Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.
Jesus said he was soon going to be with his Father (God), therefore he obviously was not claiming to be God. He was simply stating that as his Father was working through him, and because he was in harmony and accord with God, that means that having come to know Jesus his disciples also had now come to know God, and to perceive God's spirit and character - for He and Jesus were in unity.
Yes, but the next verse says:
9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”
This is God talking to His son (Jesus), saying that He is Jesus' God. It is not saying that Jesus is God.
That is a poor translation, giving the opposite meaning to what it actually says! Pick a better translation, such as the WEB:
(Php 2:6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Besides, if Jesus was God, then why would he even consider trying to grasp equality with God?!
@keithr,
1. Jesus said, "The Father and I are one."
2. He that hath seen me has seen the Father. John 14:9
3. The Father addressing His Son; "Thy throne O, God is forever and ever." Hebrews 1:8
4. Including Philippians 2
To be honest and with my finite mind, I don't really understand the 3-in-1 concept, that is that God subsists as to three persons yet is ONE God. But by faith I believe because God said so and confirmed by Scripture.
As Paul would say it, "let God be true and all man liars."
As concerning different translations of the Bible it was done for monetary gain only otherwise, God would not have allowed the KJV Bible to withstand the test of time and to be compiled as we have it today.
To God Be The Glory
1. Jesus said, "The Father and I are one."
2. He that hath seen me has seen the Father. John 14:9
3. The Father addressing His Son; "Thy throne O, God is forever and ever." Hebrews 1:8
4. Including Philippians 2
To be honest and with my finite mind, I don't really understand the 3-in-1 concept, that is that God subsists as to three persons yet is ONE God. But by faith I believe because God said so and confirmed by Scripture.
As Paul would say it, "let God be true and all man liars."
As concerning different translations of the Bible it was done for monetary gain only otherwise, God would not have allowed the KJV Bible to withstand the test of time and to be compiled as we have it today.
To God Be The Glory
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