Jesus never said he was God Almighty

[Cristo Rei]

Why would Jesus receive worship as God?

Much love!

Again, its not my focus of inquiry and I'm not interested in being led into other lines of argument at this stage

Jesus praying to God is a real hurdle for the idea that Jesus is God...

I'm not saying I'm certain. I could be wrong. If I am then I can't see it...

Are you certain of yourself?
Is it not possible that you also could be wrong?

 

[Wrangler]

Why would Jesus receive worship as God?

Much love!

I addressed this elsewhere. It is a trinitarian notion that worship means one is a God but they are in denial David, Daniel and Neburchanazar were all men who were worshipped. Therefore, it proves nothing about the divinity of Jesus.

By contrast 1 Corinthians 11:3 clearly states God is the head of Christ, not the trinitarian "father" but God in his unitarian nature.

 

[marks]

I'm not talking about the Holy Spirt. I'm specifically focusing in Jeses praying to God...

In my mind he is either praying to another entity or he is praying to himself which makes no sense to me.

I realize it makes no sense to you, that's why I asked the question.

The Son prays to the Father, how can they be the "same person"? This is your question. I think it's a broader question, so I seek to broaden it by asking, who is the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, its not my focus of inquiry and I'm not interested in being led into other lines of argument at this stage

OK, No worries! Sometimes I've found that be approaching questions from different directions sometimes brings clarity.

I'll leave it alone.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Are you certain of yourself?
Is it not possible that you also could be wrong?

Anything is possible.

The Jews thought Jesus was "making Himself to be equal with God". Did they misunderstand Him? Why would Jesus not correct them? Was Jesus lying? Of course not. And that's what they understood. They didn't trust Him, didn't believe in Him, and were determined to stop Him. But that's what they understood Him to be saying.

I understand the same thing, but with many more statements of Scripture than they had.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I addressed this elsewhere. It is a trinitarian notion that worship means one is a God but they are in denial David, Daniel and Neburchanazar were all men who were worshipped. Therefore, it proves nothing about the divinity of Jesus.

Thomas declared Jesus his Lord and His God. Why would not Jesus correct him?

Much love!

 

[marks]

but they are in denial David, Daniel and Neburchanazar were all men who were worshipped.

Were any of these declared Lord and God? If so, that was incorrect. Does this mean that no one can make that statement correctly? No, it does not. It would only mean it was not accurate in those instances, while it still could be in other instances.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Thomas declared Jesus his Lord and His God. Why would not Jesus correct him?

Much love!

Explained many times. Trinitarians want the statement to be declarative but it is obviously exclamatory. When I drop a wine glass on the flooe and yell, 'oh crap' others know I am not declaring the wine glass to be feces.

Such tortured stretches is what trinitarians are left with as they know full well the trinity is not in the Bible. You asked me a question and I answered you. So, let me ask you a question. Every Epistle identifies in the preamble God as the Father and Jesus as our Lord. Why would the disobedient Apostles exclude the Holy Spirit from every introductory letter IF they believed there are 3? Every epistle is written undermining trinitarianism. Every one.

 

[Wrangler]

Were any of these declared Lord and God?

Moving the goal posts. They were worshipped. Now, what about answering my question?

 

[marks]

Explained many times. Trinitarians want the statement to be declarative but it is obviously exclamatory. When I drop a wine glass on the flooe and yell, 'oh crap' others know I am not declaring the wine glass to be feces.

I know, we commonly say things we don't really mean, and, using God's appellation as an alternative exclamation, taking His name in vain, as it were, I don't think so. Americans talk that way. Ancient Hebrews? Are there other examples in the Bible of this sort of vain utterance?

John 20:26-29 KJV
26) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

This is not the same thing as the vain utterances we might make.



Much love!

 

[marks]

Moving the goal posts. They were worshipped. Now, what about answering my question?

I shouldn't have used the word worshiped as it does not appear in that text.



My apologies!

Invariably, I find the need to stay ever so close to the words of the Scripture. To only use the words it uses.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Every Epistle identifies in the preamble God as the Father and Jesus as our Lord. Why would the disobedient Apostles exclude the Holy Spirit from every introductory letter IF they believed there are 3?

I don't see the Apostles as disobedient myself.

I believe the Bible was inspired by God, so that what they wrote was what God wanted them to write.

I believe was through the Holy Spirit that God moved the writers to write.

John 16:13-14 KJV
13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All the answers are there!

Much love!

 

[ReChoired]

Again, its not my focus of inquiry and I'm not interested in being led into other lines of argument at this stage

Jesus praying to God is a real hurdle for the idea that Jesus is God...

I'm not saying I'm certain. I could be wrong. If I am then I can't see it...

Are you certain of yourself?
Is it not possible that you also could be wrong?

Let me see if I can be of some assistance. I am not trinitarian.

Pray/Praying (several words used in scripture, in Hebrew and koine Greek) generally means to ask, speak or talk to, beg, make request of.

Jesus, is the Person/Being the Son of the Person/Being of the Father.

The one is speaking to the other.

The terms father and son are one of relation of caretaker to one receiving care, and most often (not always) a relation by very nature. In scripture there are several relations:

[1] father to son by nature (meaning they share the very same nature, one is the nature of the other, thus Deity's nature when speaking of Godkind, and thus humanity's nature when speaking of mankind)

[2] father to son by creation (Deity's nature is uncreated, thus differs from the nature of the created kind, this relationship is Godkind to createdkind, whether Angels like Gabriel or the first man Adam)

[3] father to son by adoption (meaning brought into (or back into) the family relationship)

[4] father to son by marriage or law (meaning brought into the family relationship through lawful union with another of that family's line; like King Saul to David which married Michal (daughter of King Saul))

[5] etc.​

The relationship of Jesus (the Son) to the Ancient of Days (the Father) is of the first [1] kind. Thus the Person/Being of the Son, being Deity (God) by nature by original relation to the Person/Being of the Father who is underived in nature Deity (God). In this way the Son (God/Deity/Son) speaks with/to His Father (God/Deity/Father). In a human only example, it would be like saying I (a son of my human father) speak to my natural human father. Humanity (creation) is speaking to humanity (creation). Contrariwise, when the Son speaks to the Father, it is Deity speaking to Deity, "God" speaking with/to "God". They are two Persons/Beings (only dealing with Father and Son, the Holy Spirit is for another discussion elsewhere, but is also a Person/Being). The hierarchy still exists, of relationship of Father to Son.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

[ReChoired]

I don't see the Apostles as disobedient myself.

I believe the Bible was inspired by God, so that what they wrote was what God wanted them to write.

I believe was through the Holy Spirit that God moved the writers to write.

John 16:13-14 KJV
13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All the answers are there!

Much love!

True, there is also the fact that many Epistles begin with something like this:

Rom_1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.​

Yet, notice that many times it is not just "Jesus", but "Jesus Christ", and that "Christ" part is the intimation of the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost, by whom Jesus was anointed from the Father. See Luke 4, citing Isaiah 61.

Sometimes like this:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,​

Sometimes the Holy Ghost/Spirit is included in the ending (rather than a direct mention at the beginning):

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.

1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.​

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Quite an imagination you have there from one verse, Don't listen to the RCC

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

I agree with all that but for the start you claim, Quite an imagination you have there from one verse, don't listen to the RCC.
Well I do listen to the RCC and all such, I am not a bigot.

Over the years I have dismissed the RCC and the Protestants Churches because they are all clearly dregs nowadays that are truly devoid of Jesus Christ as the well Spring and they have taken on the works of Man line and promote the so called Jews. Not to mention they promote the so called 2ed coming as if it was going to be the only answer to the problems, so they have dropped the ball so to speak.

They have forgotten that the fact is that one must "truly" be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God. for the fast of the 2ed coming that they are promoting.
Now I have put it as 2ed coming and not the Second coming ?
The 2ed coming is false and of Mans works and the Second coming is of Gods working.

Oh I listen to them all, but I only follow Jesus Christ.

I have been in the Churches from the 60's on, so I have seen the change, it's just like what happened to the Jews 2000 years ago, the enemy crept in and bastardised them and they turned their backs on God for Mans works, following Mans madness religion that is of Satan.

Just who are the Churches serving nowadays ? They are serving Man, the Beast ! clearly. They have all bowed down to Socialist Political Correctness is their god ! they have given up on abortion and even abortion on demand now they are clearly worshiping Moloch.

Sure their are the faithful who serve Jesus Christ as they are the real Body of Christ Jesus. just like it was with the worthy Israelites who had faith in Jesus was the Christ.

Many people who I have talked to who push the 2ed coming are people of little faith in fact, they do not seek the Kingdom of God at all in fact.
They do not have the Kingdom within them because they are not truly born again in fact, so they look to Mans works and some stupid deranged Godless Jews to fix the world ? They are barking up the wrong tree. They promote another Jesus. They claim that Jesus will come in the flesh ! the 2ed Jesus . I thought he was the only begotten Son, but now we have the second son ? blasphemy ! then we have Satanist claiming that they will be raptured up to another place and then come back down after the rapture but God said it's appointed to Man to only live once. so who are they kidding ! it's they promote the hellfire and claim to be rewarded for such, but 2 wrongs do not make a right and Man only reaps what he sows.
So they who wish to sow bad seed are devoid of God. this self righteous type will say Lord Lord, but Jesus will not know them, because they are not worthy of the Body of Christ Jesus. they are only religious just like the bastards who wanted Jesus Christ killed.

 

[marks]

True, there is also the fact that many Epistles begin with something like this:

Rom_1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.​

Yet, notice that many times it is not just "Jesus", but "Jesus Christ", and that "Christ" part is the intimation of the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost, by whom Jesus was anointed from the Father. See Luke 4, citing Isaiah 61.

Sometimes like this:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,​

Sometimes the Holy Ghost/Spirit is included in the ending (rather than a direct mention at the beginning):

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.

1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.​

Who actually IS the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I know, we commonly say things we don't really mean, and, using God's appellation as an alternative exclamation, taking His name in vain, as it were, I don't think so.

Well, there it is.

BTW, the expression, ‘taking the Lord’s name in vain’ applies to court cases, as does the Commandment against perjury, not general lying.

 

[Wrangler]

This is not the same thing as the vain utterances we might make.

Again, it is NOT taking his name in vain but an exclamatory statement.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't see the Apostles as disobedient myself.

Neither do I. The logical alternative is there but you don’t want to answer why the excluded the HS in all their epistles.

So be it.

 

[marks]

BTW, the expression, ‘taking the Lord’s name in vain’ applies to court cases, as does the Commandment against perjury, not general lying.

It's to take up the Name of the LORD in a vain, empty manner, if I remember by studies correctly. The commandment against false witness is just that, as you say, perjury, it's right there in the commandment. But there is more to taking up the Name of the LORD in vain, I think.

Some call themselves Christian, and are not, for instance.

Much love!