Agreed! I'm still thinking that Jesus had something in mind in telling these parables. Like the parable of the sower, the disciples asked what it meant, and Jesus told them. It had a certain meaning.
Much love!
Jesus never said he was God Almighty
- Thread starter APAK
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No way! It has to be obvious to the casual observer of our exchanges this is a final, desperate bid to support a false doctrine. Telling the Hebrews what their Millenia old sacred writings mean is in bad form.
The text is monotheistic and the language must be interpreted along those lines.
Words are not putty to mean anything you want them to mean. Jesus said he is going to his God. That means he is not God to anyone who understands:
Definition
Logic
Language Usage.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Agreed. However, over time the meaning can become more generalized but not contradictory.
For instance, the expression ‘blowing smoke up your’ butt has literal origins in the 18th century when the public became doubtful of a certain medical procedure’s efficacy to treat stomach ailments.
On point of different applications, Confessions by St Augustine expands on this as I and Emily have experienced.
What I find truly gracious and miraculous on God's part is when these meanings when shared can open up doors to even greater.
Making fishers of men meant growing the spiritual outreach.
But when applied to Christian outreach of teaching abundance mentality by practice and examples, teaching people to fish ALSO applies to uplifting people out of poverty first in spirit and then teaching how to run their own community businesses, church groups or schools. So it becomes even greater in practice and application.
Both the historical meaning and the other practical applications that come out later in real life. Universal on multiple levels.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I think the Bible was written saying a certain thing, and that it's meaning does not change.
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Understood. St Augustine disagrees. I’ve been told my view is about the application of the verse. St Augustine said the author of all truth can use the words for authors - guided by the HS - the human author never intended for future generations to divine truth.
Again, I’ve experienced the living word mentioned in Hebrews 4:12 and I know others have as well.
I don't question that!
You know, whenever the discussion starts going that direction, the expression always seems to come to my mind, 'my opinions of my perceptions of myself', and I wonder what that is really worth. Isn't it more comparing myself with myself?
Yes, the word divides quite well, and the better the more you know it, and the better still the more you choose to live it.
I suppose we all have those who will agree with us on various things.
I think that God can apply the Scriptures to us in our personal relationships in ways not contextualized in the writing of the passage. He's speaking to us personally, and can use a verse here or a word there or a chapter there. Or a bit of a song or a sermon or a sunset, He speaks to us in many and varied ways.
But where the Bible describes a truth or an event or a prophecy, I believe there is a certain thing being described, Objective to the Bible, not subjective to to the reader.
Much love!
He is the mysterious and eternal Holy third Person/Being of the Godhead. The third Person/Being of the eternal Heavenly Trio. The third Person/Being of the highest threefold Powers/Authorities in Heaven. The third Person/Being of the eternal family JEHOVAH Elohiym. The third Creator (Job 33:4; Psalms 104:30). He is the representative of Jesus, and comes in Jesus' name (John 14:26), as Jesus is the representative of the Father, and came in His name (John 5:43, 10:25). He is the representative of the Captain of the LORD's host. Just as the Son is the Son of the Father, so too, is the Holy Ghost/Spirit the Spirit of the Father and of the Son. He is "another Comforter" (JOhn 14:16), the "angel" (messenger, uncreated and eternal) that comes down to lighten the whole earth with His glory (Revelation 18:1; Numbers 14:21; Psalms 72:19; Isaiah 60:2; Ezekiel 43:2), even as Jesus is the "angel" (messenger, uncreated and eternal; Malachi 3:1; Exodus 3:2,4; Revelation 10:1) of the Father. Just as Jesus has a named 'angel' (Gabriel, the created angelic spirit) and an unnamed 'angel' (I call 'Herald', another created angelic spirit, who remains mysterious) that flank Him, so too the Father, has His two Witnesses, the Son (Jesus, Michael, Emmanuel, Israel, David, Adam, who is named) and the Holy Ghost/Spirit (who is not named, and remains mysterious). They Two are the eternal Witnesses of the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
Joh_5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh_10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Ecc_4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one [context, vs 8, "agree in one", they are not one Person/Being, the word "one" is being used as it is for 'team', or 'family', or 'marriage', or 'chord', etc like a harmony or symphony, like multiple Persons/Beings that are together in "one accord", having the same goal, mindset, etc].
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isa_61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Php_1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Joh_17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Act_4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act_4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Mat_1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Isa_6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Rev_4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Joh_10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Ecc_4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one [context, vs 8, "agree in one", they are not one Person/Being, the word "one" is being used as it is for 'team', or 'family', or 'marriage', or 'chord', etc like a harmony or symphony, like multiple Persons/Beings that are together in "one accord", having the same goal, mindset, etc].
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isa_61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Php_1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Joh_17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Act_4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act_4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Mat_1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Isa_6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Rev_4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Abundance mentality is the opposite of
Scarcity mentality.
Abundance mentality teaches that by serving others and investing in people and relationships this generates rewards and benefits for everyone.
Like it is more blessed to give than receive.
But in business, what you give comes back to you.
Scarcity mentality is the opposite.
Being stuck in fear you cannot afford to take on responsibilities, so you stay limited.
This mentality is the fear "there are not enough resources to support everyone",
which leads to people fighting over control of resources. People who do not believe that giving freely is enough to take care of others in need will "fear" that taxes need to be forced on wealthier people in order to afford welfare for the poor.
While the people who practice more effective business models have more FAITH that investing in providing good services and products to meet public demand will generate wealth and a healthy economy that can support charity as needed.
The most effective leaders tend to have "abundance mentality."
The political strategy of using fear and victimhood to demand that govt should forcibly redistribute the wealth of others, is a prime example of "scarcity mentality" due to lack of faith that God or Life provides for us if we manage ourselves and resources more wisely.
Do you mean that by serving the Lord I will become materially abundant? Rich?
Or that the abundant life, not necessarily having anything to do with material abundance, rather, a spiritually abundant life is found in serving God? I think we are promised spiritual abundance, but not necessarily material abundance.
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No, not riches for oneself as proof or that becomes boasting and judging by appearances.
It is more like always having enough to share with others and for God to provide. Like the bread and fish feeding the multitudes. Or God feeding all the birds without fear of toiling.
As opposed to people "living in fear" they need govt to provide charity. Or they don't have enough to take care of their own children and bills.
The real difference is INTERNAL not external.
Whether living by true faith and peace in God's hands.
Or living by fear and needing physical material proof BEFORE agreeing to put faith in God.
The external follows from getting the internal right. Like how works FOLLOW faith, and are not a condition or means of judging.
People get this backwards.
That is partly why Jesus warned it is harder for the wealthy to let go and enter the Kingdom because people get used to judging by material appearance and security based on that instead of what is going on internally.
There is a right way and a wrong way of teaching abundance mentality, so it doesn't get confused with the wrong way of teaching "prosperity" that becomes judging by works and appearance.
More like this then . . .
2 Corinthians 9:8 LITV
And God is able to make all grace to abound toward you, that in everything, always having all self sufficiency, you may abound to every good work;
God will give you everything you need to do every good work He intends.
Much love!
The way God works, even greater!More like this then . . .
2 Corinthians 9:8 LITV
And God is able to make all grace to abound toward you, that in everything, always having all self sufficiency, you may abound to every good work;
God will give you everything you need to do every good work He intends.
Much love!
It doesn't always happen within the timeframe we expect.
God is not limited by linear time as human expectations tend to measure cause, effect and results.
I have seen people forgive grave injustice and take terrible financial losses.
The benefits or rewards may not come back until much later when LEAST expected.
So it can be beyond words the way God blesses in abundance.
Usually, the bigger the debts forgiven, the greater the blessings.
And God can use the least expected time, place or person
to bring about these blessings.
I think the lesson is this isn't "caused by man or works."
When it is clearly greater than what we thought or planned,
it is clearly from God.
The stories and testimonies I have heard from people,
who obeyed God when they truly thought they were at the end.
And out of the blue, God answers prayers or already had plans in place.
Amazing Grace!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
YOu were doing well until you derailed yourself.
We are not arguing the fact that Jesus is subordinate to the Father! He is! but that does not mean He does not have an absolute divine nature!
Let us look at John 5:23--the whole verse!
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
YOu conveniently omit the fact that Jesus commanded men reverence the son in the same manner as they reverence the Father! So whoever does not reverence the son in the same manner as the Father does not reverence the Father!
and nowhere in Scripture are christians to be reverenced in the same manner as the Triune God head!
Yet the Father called the Son -- Jesus -- "GOD" (THEOS) (Heb 1:8,9). So what you are trying to do is promote your heresy by selectively ignoring those Scriptures which clearly declare Jesus to be God -- fully God. Furthermore only God Himself -- as Man -- could pay for the sins of the whole world. So even there you must either admit that Jesus is God, or manufacture your own gospel.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No, God did not say that. In modern vernacular God said sit on that throne of my mine.
Wow where did the thought pop in you head....when you said "but that does not mean He does not have an absolute divine nature!"
So this verse means the divine nature of Christ...WOW...you know you are hard-wired to think this way on any type of verse like this one don't you? YOU have just proved it with your words.
So just cut to the chase and come out and say it already, you believe 'honor' means worship of deity. How ignorant is your thinking. As I said already, the verse in question does not have worship in it at all. You just cannot discriminate between the two different words and their meanings. Once you recognize the difference, then many, just maybe you can understand scripture. Until that time, you will tread in the mud in utter confusion, and stamp your selected scripture with you triune god.
Who ever suggested that anyone else besides God, the Father is worshipped. I never did. He is the only only one who is truly worshipped. But you went off topic deliberately and avoided the very verse of the posts. IT's about HONOR - NOT WOSHIP!!
And again READ the verse about honor, reverence, respect etc, as being quite DIFFERENT from worship. Can you UNDERSTAND the DIFFERENCE here? You just cannot just arbitrarily substitute the Greek word for honor in your mind and MAKE IT MEAN WORSHIP!
You have a very closed simplistic mind to scripture and its interpretation...that's all I can say.
yes, let's look at the entire verse again as if that matters to you because you will automatically disregard any context.
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5 is about HONORing the SON and NOT JUST the FATHER ...it introduces the significance of the Son, as being the judge of people and not the Father....so we should give HONOR to the SON here, in this regard.it is not speaking of worship here....
Now it goes without saying, honoring of the Father and the Son is at a level more personal and greater and than say to an elder or a person in the service of the Father or the Son as scripture clearly shows.
- Status
Similar threads
