Solving the mistery of the trinity.

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discipleHelovestoo

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i am one person. i'm made up of three parts: spirit, soul and body (1Thes5:23).

I am made in God's image: Spirit (God), Soul (Holy Spirit); body (Jesus)

God is one person.

the scriptures can be 'logically' interpreted to both support and deny the concept of the Trinity; this is our failure to fully inderstand how the scriptures reveal God, not a fault in scripture.

i see the use of the the terms "Father", "Son" and "Holy Ghost" to be man's way of perceiving the three ways that man relates to God.

a child can easily understand that a person is made up of three parts; but will need help to believe that they understand that three people are one.


Mark 10:15 KJVR

(15) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.




Luke 18:17 KJVR

(17) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

 

Groundzero

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i am one person. i'm made up of three parts: spirit, soul and body (1Thes5:23).

I am made in God's image: Spirit (God), Soul (Holy Spirit); body (Jesus)

God is one person.

the scriptures can be 'logically' interpreted to both support and deny the concept of the Trinity; this is our failure to fully inderstand how the scriptures reveal God, not a fault in scripture.

i see the use of the the terms "Father", "Son" and "Holy Ghost" to be man's way of perceiving the three ways that man relates to God.

a child can easily understand that a person is made up of three parts; but will need help to believe that they understand that three people are one.


Mark 10:15 KJVR

(15) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.




Luke 18:17 KJVR

(17) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.




Hey, I like how you put that.

Yeah, I have the title of 'worldly' put on me alot. Even though it's usually on other things, not about some doctrine formulated 300 years after Jesus Christ!

 

veteran

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I fail to see how anyone could assume God's Word goes against the idea of a Triune Godhead. The multitude of Scripture evidence is that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit are all ONE.

When Philip asked Jesus to show him The Father and it would suffice, Jesus asked him how He'd been among him all that time and he didn't yet know Him, and then told him that he who had seen Him had seen The Father. That is right in line with the Isaiah 9:6 Scripture which declares Christ as The Mighty God and The Everlasting Father.

Not being able to understand how Jesus could be God in the flesh on earth with God also being in Heaven is not an excuse to deny what our Lord Jesus said about Himself there in John 14 to Philip.

Was Christ Jesus created? No, not His Divine Nature as God. His flesh body was of the earthly material elements born through woman's womb as we are. His flesh body died and then was transfigured to the resurrection type body.

Apostle Paul revealed that we are made up of spirit, soul, and flesh in this present world. So how can those 3 things together be joined as one in our makeup today? The concept of the triune (3's) exists throughout God's creation to reflect the Divine Pattern of Himself. So why do we have to continually try to separate three parts of a whole, when we cannot even do that with our own created makeup?


 

discipleHelovestoo

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May 14, 2011
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I fail to see how anyone could assume God's Word goes against the idea of a Triune Godhead. The multitude of Scripture evidence is that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit are all ONE.

When Philip asked Jesus to show him The Father and it would suffice, Jesus asked him how He'd been among him all that time and he didn't yet know Him, and then told him that he who had seen Him had seen The Father. That is right in line with the Isaiah 9:6 Scripture which declares Christ as The Mighty God and The Everlasting Father.

Not being able to understand how Jesus could be God in the flesh on earth with God also being in Heaven is not an excuse to deny what our Lord Jesus said about Himself there in John 14 to Philip.

Was Christ Jesus created? No, not His Divine Nature as God. His flesh body was of the earthly material elements born through woman's womb as we are. His flesh body died and then was transfigured to the resurrection type body.

Apostle Paul revealed that we are made up of spirit, soul, and flesh in this present world. So how can those 3 things together be joined as one in our makeup today? The concept of the triune (3's) exists throughout God's creation to reflect the Divine Pattern of Himself. So why do we have to continually try to separate three parts of a whole, when we cannot even do that with our own created makeup?



i don't see how John 14:9 supports the concept of a 'triune God'; to me, it is clearly saying that Jesus IS God, not 1 of 3. can you elaborate?
 

discipleHelovestoo

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Hey, I like how you put that.

Yeah, I have the title of 'worldly' put on me alot. Even though it's usually on other things, not about some doctrine formulated 300 years after Jesus Christ!


well, if it was good, it musta been God! :)

Here's an interesting excerpt from Clarke's commentary (Clarke supports the Trinity concept, which is even more interesting given his commentary here):

begin quote:

1Jn 5:7

There are three that bear record - The Father, who bears testimony to his Son; the Word or
Λογος, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the Holy Ghost, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following: -

"
1Jo_5:6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo_5:7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

1Jo_5:9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, etc."

The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these: -

[In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one, and there are three which bear witness in earth].

To make the whole more clear, that every reader may see what has been added, I shall set down these verses, with the inserted words in brackets.

"
1Jo_5:6. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo_5:7. For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. 1Jo_5:8. And there are three that bear witness in earth],the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one.

1Jo_5:9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, etc."

Any man may see, on examining the words, that if those included in brackets, which are wanting in the MSS. and versions, be omitted, there is no want of connection; and as to the sense, it is complete and perfect without them; and, indeed much more so than with them. I shall conclude this part of the note by observing, with Dr. Dodd, "that there are some internal and accidental marks which may render the passage suspected; for the sense is complete, and indeed more clear and better preserved, without it. Besides, the Spirit is mentioned, both as a witness in heaven and on earth; so that the six witnesses are thereby reduced to five, and the equality of number, or antithesis between the witnesses in heaven and on earth, is quite taken away. Besides, what need of witnesses in heaven? No one there doubts that Jesus is the Messiah; and if it be said that Father, Son, and Spirit are witnesses on earth, then there are five witnesses on earth, and none in heaven; not to say that there is a little difficulty in interpreting how the Word or the Son can be a witness to himself."

It may be necessary to inquire how this verse stood in our earliest English Bibles. In Coverdale’s Bible, printed about 1535, for it bears no date, the seventh verse is put in brackets thus: -

And it is the Sprete that beareth wytnes; for the Sprete is the truth. (For there are thre which beare recorde in heaven: the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) And there are thre which beare record in earth: the Sprete, water, and bloude and these thre are one. If we receyve, etc.

Tindal was as critical as he was conscientious; and though he admitted the words into the text of the first edition of his New Testament printed in 1526, yet he distinguished them by a different letter, and put them in brackets, as Coverdale has done; and also the words in earth, which stand in
1Jo_5:8, without proper authority, and which being excluded make the text the same as in the MSS., etc.

Two editions of this version are now before me; one printed in English and Latin, quarto, with the following title: -

The New Testament, both in Englyshe and Laten, of Master Erasmus translation - and imprinted by William Powell - the yere of out Lorde M.CCCCC.XLVII. And the fyrste yere of the kynges (Edw. VI.) moste gratious reygne.

In this edition the text stands thus: -

And it is the Spirite that beareth wytnes, because the Spirite is truth (for there are thre whiche beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Worde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) For there are thre which beare recorde, (in earth), the Spirite, water, and blode, and these thre are one. If we receyve, etc.

The other printed in London "by William Tylle, 4to; without the Latin of Erasmus in M.CCCCC.XLIX. the thyrde yere of the reigne of our moost dreade Soverayne Lorde Kynge Edwarde the Syxte," has, with a small variety of spelling, the text in the same order, and the same words included in brackets as above.

The English Bible, with the book of Common Prayer, printed by Richard Cardmarden, at Rouen in Normandy, fol. 1566, exhibits the text faithfully, but in the following singular manner: -

And it is the Spyryte that beareth witnesse, because the Spyryte is truthe. (for there are three which beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost; and these Three are One) And three which beare recorde* (in earth) the Spirite, and water, and bloode; and these three are one.

The first English Bible which I have seen, where these distinctions were omitted, is that called The Bishops’ Bible, printed by Jugge, fol. 1568. Since that time, all such distinctions have been generally disregarded.

Though a conscientious believer in the doctrine of the ever blessed, holy, and undivided Trinity, and in the proper and essential Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, which doctrines I have defended by many, and even new, arguments in the course of this work, I cannot help doubting the authenticity of the text in question; and, for farther particulars, refer to the observations at the end of this chapter.

end quote
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
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well, if it was good, it musta been God! :)

Here's an interesting excerpt from Clarke's commentary (Clarke supports the Trinity concept, which is even more interesting given his commentary here):

begin quote:

1Jn 5:7

There are three that bear record - The Father, who bears testimony to his Son; the Word or
Λογος, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the Holy Ghost, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following: -

"
1Jo_5:6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo_5:7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

1Jo_5:9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, etc."

The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these: -

[In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one, and there are three which bear witness in earth].

To make the whole more clear, that every reader may see what has been added, I shall set down these verses, with the inserted words in brackets.

"
1Jo_5:6. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo_5:7. For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. 1Jo_5:8. And there are three that bear witness in earth],the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one.

1Jo_5:9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, etc."

Any man may see, on examining the words, that if those included in brackets, which are wanting in the MSS. and versions, be omitted, there is no want of connection; and as to the sense, it is complete and perfect without them; and, indeed much more so than with them. I shall conclude this part of the note by observing, with Dr. Dodd, "that there are some internal and accidental marks which may render the passage suspected; for the sense is complete, and indeed more clear and better preserved, without it. Besides, the Spirit is mentioned, both as a witness in heaven and on earth; so that the six witnesses are thereby reduced to five, and the equality of number, or antithesis between the witnesses in heaven and on earth, is quite taken away. Besides, what need of witnesses in heaven? No one there doubts that Jesus is the Messiah; and if it be said that Father, Son, and Spirit are witnesses on earth, then there are five witnesses on earth, and none in heaven; not to say that there is a little difficulty in interpreting how the Word or the Son can be a witness to himself."

It may be necessary to inquire how this verse stood in our earliest English Bibles. In Coverdale’s Bible, printed about 1535, for it bears no date, the seventh verse is put in brackets thus: -

And it is the Sprete that beareth wytnes; for the Sprete is the truth. (For there are thre which beare recorde in heaven: the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) And there are thre which beare record in earth: the Sprete, water, and bloude and these thre are one. If we receyve, etc.

Tindal was as critical as he was conscientious; and though he admitted the words into the text of the first edition of his New Testament printed in 1526, yet he distinguished them by a different letter, and put them in brackets, as Coverdale has done; and also the words in earth, which stand in
1Jo_5:8, without proper authority, and which being excluded make the text the same as in the MSS., etc.

Two editions of this version are now before me; one printed in English and Latin, quarto, with the following title: -

The New Testament, both in Englyshe and Laten, of Master Erasmus translation - and imprinted by William Powell - the yere of out Lorde M.CCCCC.XLVII. And the fyrste yere of the kynges (Edw. VI.) moste gratious reygne.

In this edition the text stands thus: -

And it is the Spirite that beareth wytnes, because the Spirite is truth (for there are thre whiche beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Worde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) For there are thre which beare recorde, (in earth), the Spirite, water, and blode, and these thre are one. If we receyve, etc.

The other printed in London "by William Tylle, 4to; without the Latin of Erasmus in M.CCCCC.XLIX. the thyrde yere of the reigne of our moost dreade Soverayne Lorde Kynge Edwarde the Syxte," has, with a small variety of spelling, the text in the same order, and the same words included in brackets as above.

The English Bible, with the book of Common Prayer, printed by Richard Cardmarden, at Rouen in Normandy, fol. 1566, exhibits the text faithfully, but in the following singular manner: -

And it is the Spyryte that beareth witnesse, because the Spyryte is truthe. (for there are three which beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost; and these Three are One) And three which beare recorde* (in earth) the Spirite, and water, and bloode; and these three are one.

The first English Bible which I have seen, where these distinctions were omitted, is that called The Bishops’ Bible, printed by Jugge, fol. 1568. Since that time, all such distinctions have been generally disregarded.

Though a conscientious believer in the doctrine of the ever blessed, holy, and undivided Trinity, and in the proper and essential Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, which doctrines I have defended by many, and even new, arguments in the course of this work, I cannot help doubting the authenticity of the text in question; and, for farther particulars, refer to the observations at the end of this chapter.

end quote

Very interesting. Of course, being at the other end of the spectrum, I can say that even with the faulty interpretation, it still doesn't prove anything about the Trinity! It might not contradict it, but read this carefully: NEITHER DOES IT CONTRADICT ONENESS!


Thanks for that quote. It was very interesting.
 

Groundzero

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Would anyone care to define "Oneness"?

What the Oneness believes:

  • There is One God
  • His name is Jesus
  • The Son and Holy Ghost are both manifestations of that One God, not separate persons
  • The Son is not God, the Son is merely the humanity of the glorious conception in Mary's womb.
The last point explains how the Son is inferior to the Father, yet they are the exact same spirit. Jesus Christ only didn't know that time of the Second Time in regards to his humanity. As deity, he knew everything. This it the only way to reconcile the Scripture. The Trinity has issues because not only does it make Jesus lesser, 1/3, it cannot explain how in the Bible the Son is always inferior to the Father. The view where Jesus is NOT God, also has issues as Jesus makes it clear that he IS God!
 

lawrance

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What the Oneness believes:

  • There is One God
  • His name is Jesus
  • The Son and Holy Ghost are both manifestations of that One God, not separate persons
  • The Son is not God, the Son is merely the humanity of the glorious conception in Mary's womb.
The last point explains how the Son is inferior to the Father, yet they are the exact same spirit. Jesus Christ only didn't know that time of the Second Time in regards to his humanity. As deity, he knew everything. This it the only way to reconcile the Scripture. The Trinity has issues because not only does it make Jesus lesser, 1/3, it cannot explain how in the Bible the Son is always inferior to the Father. The view where Jesus is NOT God, also has issues as Jesus makes it clear that he IS God!


Your word inferior is not right at all.
Jesus is (Emanual) God with us ?
So he is hear for us humans ok ? only !
God is God but Jesus is the Son of God he was sent to us people so that we could come to to know our purpose hear as to God.
No One can come to comprehend God in the true light and the OT Jews never did come to know him fully! until Jesus came as he is the light of the world, their is no darkness in him as he is Gods only Son.
So to us people he is not inferior at all because his is our only way to the Father, we can't come to the Father any other way at all.

I see that you are looking at it from a worldy point of view mate only and that is the problem why you can't see it.
 

Groundzero

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Your word inferior is not right at all.
Jesus is (Emanual) God with us ?
So he is hear for us humans ok ? only !
God is God but Jesus is the Son of God he was sent to us people so that we could come to to know our purpose hear as to God.
No One can come to comprehend God in the true light and the OT Jews never did come to know him fully! until Jesus came as he is the light of the world, their is no darkness in him as he is Gods only Son.
So to us people he is not inferior at all because his is our only way to the Father, we can't come to the Father any other way at all.

I see that you are looking at it from a worldy point of view mate only and that is the problem why you can't see it.

Mate, what about you read what I write in context?! I said that the NAME of God is Jesus! I said that the Son is inferior to the Father, not us!!!!! Look through your Bible! Tell me what you find! I know what you'll find! You'll find that the Son/Christ is inferior TO the Father because all the Son/Christ is, is humanity!!!! Of course, you don't have to accept this, as it's probably to simple for you!

Oh, and worldly point of view? Tell me, how is it worldly? I make Jesus all that God is! You say he is God, but in your Trinity, he is only 1/3 God! Talk about loving him with lips while robbing him! A god who is not god over all, is NOT GOD AT ALL!
 

veteran

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i don't see how John 14:9 supports the concept of a 'triune God'; to me, it is clearly saying that Jesus IS God, not 1 of 3. can you elaborate?

You mean you don't see the difference with our Lord Jesus praying to The Father while in the flesh? nor with the giving of The Holy Spirit to our spirit? Just those 3 different manifestations as written is enough proof to show God as 3 Persons in The Godhead.

Are you able to answer Jesus' question...

Luke 20:41-44
41 And He said unto them, "How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.'
44 David therefore calleth Him Lord, how is He then his son?"
(KJV)
 

aspen

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God - Jesus - Holy Spirit

Mind - Heart - Will
 

Groundzero

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You mean you don't see the difference with our Lord Jesus praying to The Father while in the flesh? nor with the giving of The Holy Spirit to our spirit? Just those 3 different manifestations as written is enough proof to show God as 3 Persons in The Godhead.

Are you able to answer Jesus' question...

Luke 20:41-44
41 And He said unto them, "How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.'
44 David therefore calleth Him Lord, how is He then his son?"
(KJV)


If Jesus Christ prayed, that meant, according to Trinity, that he was NOT God, for if a god prays, it means that he needs help and therefore un-gods himself!

No problems! Jesus was David's son in regards to his HUMANITY! As to his DEITY, Jesus was the God David worshipped!
 

aspen

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Mate, what about you read what I write in context?! I said that the NAME of God is Jesus! I said that the Son is inferior to the Father, not us!!!!! Look through your Bible! Tell me what you find! I know what you'll find! You'll find that the Son/Christ is inferior TO the Father because all the Son/Christ is, is humanity!!!! Of course, you don't have to accept this, as it's probably to simple for you!

Oh, and worldly point of view? Tell me, how is it worldly? I make Jesus all that God is! You say he is God, but in your Trinity, he is only 1/3 God! Talk about loving him with lips while robbing him! A god who is not god over all, is NOT GOD AT ALL!

Unfortunately, sola scriptura often leads to heresy. Just like the church alone. We need both, folks.
 

Prentis

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The church must be based on Christ or it won't stand!

Christ is the foundation. Look at how many million bibles we have... And then look at all the denominations it's created.

The Pharisees had the scriptures... What went wrong?

We need the Spirit of the Lord, the life of Jesus Christ in us. As it says, Christ in us, the hope of glory! THAT is our hope, Christ in us! The scriptures are usefull when the Spirit interprets it and teaches us, opens our understanding. The church is necessary for us to grow in love. But without the life of Christ, all this amounts to nothing.
 

discipleHelovestoo

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You mean you don't see the difference with our Lord Jesus praying to The Father while in the flesh? nor with the giving of The Holy Spirit to our spirit? Just those 3 different manifestations as written is enough proof to show God as 3 Persons in The Godhead.

Are you able to answer Jesus' question...

Luke 20:41-44
41 And He said unto them, "How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.'
44 David therefore calleth Him Lord, how is He then his son?"
(KJV)
in your mind maybe, but not in mine. i'm not going to arugue with you in this post - believe what you will