Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ever heard of the seventy nations of Israel?Because I know we all have our Bibles, I will not clutter this post with my preferred translation but only cite the relevant verses. Read carefully Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27. Then ask yourself the question of Why The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord? See Matthew 28:19.
This verse always bothered me for 2 reasons: 1st, it seems so out of place, stuck at the end like that. It seems so off that the Messiah would wait until after he died to drop this bombshell on them. Trinitarians often use it to justify trinitarianism. But wait. Upon further reflection, Matthew 28:19 does not state the nature of God, at all. If he said to baptize people in the name of Moe, Larry and Curly or Earth, Wind & Fire, it does not mean this is the nature of God.
2nd, after reading this Gospel passage and read the rest of the Bible, you find the many times The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord by baptizing people in other ways. This makes no sense. If I saw a man come back from the dead and he told me to do something, I would go ahead and do it.
The Apostles chose to die rather than abandon their risen Lord. It seems baptizing people in whatever name he said is a much lower standard of commitment. Yet the post-Gospel account indicates the opposite. Again, this makes no sense. Excerpts from this site offers an alternative and logical explanation:
Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” He wrote prolifically and his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings including Matthew 28:19 several times. But he never quotes it as it appears in modern Bibles. He always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.”
The following example comes from an unaltered book of Matthew that could have been the original or the first copy of the original. Thus Eusebius informs us of the actual words Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew 28:19 which were, “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, Ch. 6, 132 (a), p. 152)
Eusebius was present at the council of Nicea and was involved in the debates over the Godhead. If the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted instead, “in my name.” So it appears that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.
So, in conclusion:
- The Apostles did NOT Repeatedly Disobey the Risen Lord but did as he commanded him to baptize people in his name only.
- 4th century trinitarians changed Matthew 28:19 to fit their doctrine.
Jesus was speaking to His disciples. Not me.No. Nation different than Tribe?
Because I know we all have our Bibles, I will not clutter this post with my preferred translation but only cite the relevant verses. Read carefully Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27. Then ask yourself the question of Why The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord? See Matthew 28:19.
This verse always bothered me for 2 reasons: 1st, it seems so out of place, stuck at the end like that. It seems so off that the Messiah would wait until after he died to drop this bombshell on them. Trinitarians often use it to justify trinitarianism. But wait. Upon further reflection, Matthew 28:19 does not state the nature of God, at all. If he said to baptize people in the name of Moe, Larry and Curly or Earth, Wind & Fire, it does not mean this is the nature of God.
2nd, after reading this Gospel passage and read the rest of the Bible, you find the many times The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord by baptizing people in other ways. This makes no sense. If I saw a man come back from the dead and he told me to do something, I would go ahead and do it.
The Apostles chose to die rather than abandon their risen Lord. It seems baptizing people in whatever name he said is a much lower standard of commitment. Yet the post-Gospel account indicates the opposite. Again, this makes no sense. Excerpts from this site offers an alternative and logical explanation:
Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” He wrote prolifically and his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings including Matthew 28:19 several times. But he never quotes it as it appears in modern Bibles. He always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.”
The following example comes from an unaltered book of Matthew that could have been the original or the first copy of the original. Thus Eusebius informs us of the actual words Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew 28:19 which were, “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, Ch. 6, 132 (a), p. 152)
Eusebius was present at the council of Nicea and was involved in the debates over the Godhead. If the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted instead, “in my name.” So it appears that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.
So, in conclusion:
- The Apostles did NOT Repeatedly Disobey the Risen Lord but did as he commanded him to baptize people in his name only.
- 4th century trinitarians changed Matthew 28:19 to fit their doctrine.
I posted this in another thread on Mt 28:19 but I'll repeat it here
- 4th century trinitarians changed Matthew 28:19 to fit their doctrine.
The Didache from the SECOND CENTURY proves that you are full of Anti-Trinitarian hot air.4th century trinitarians changed Matthew 28:19 to fit their doctrine.
The Didache from the SECOND CENTURY proves that you are full of Anti-Trinitarian hot air.
The Trinitarians had to constantly deal with the Anti-Trinitarian heretics.
The matter is easily resolved by illumination from this passage:What say you about all the verses, like Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27 that say to baptize ONLY in Jesus' name? Kind of makes the one lone verse of Matthew 28:19 suspicious in the extreme.
You haven't proved they did disobey Jesus.Your ‘standard’ of proof is not mine. You cannot rationalize the Apostles repeatedly disobeying the Risen Lord.
What say you about all the verses, like Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27 that say to baptize ONLY in Jesus' name? Kind of makes the one lone verse of Matthew 28:19 suspicious in the extreme.
The matter is easily resolved by illumination from this passage:
1Jn 5:6-12
You haven't proved they did disobey Jesus.
None of those verses say to baptise ONLY in Jesus name.