Why The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
4,332
643
113
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
They don't have to say "only". You are inventing a standard in a desperate attempt to support your doctrine.
I just exposed that you made a false claim

Whose name we baptize in is absolutely no proof of the trinity.
The issue wasn't about proof of Trinity but the batismal formula

No mention of co-equal, co-substantial or co-eternal. What's more, it doesn't say anything like if you do not believe this 3is1, you cannot be saved.
Now who is inventing a standard in a desperate attempt to support your doctrine?
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wrangler
I suppose you have the original text to prove your point???

  1. 4th century trinitarians changed Matthew 28:19 to fit their doctrine.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I baptize you in the name of Dr. No!

that’s a good one! Way to go wrangler
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Repeatedly, the Apostles baptized in either Jesus name OR no name.
More baloney from wrangler. If Matthew 28:19 had been absent from Scripture neither Justin Martyr (2nd century), nor Tertullian (2nd century), nor the Didache (2nd century) would all have "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

TERTULLIAN ON BAPTISM
Not that in the waters we obtain the Holy Spirit; but in the water, under (the witness of) the angel, we are cleansed, and prepared for the Holy Spirit. In this case also a type has preceded; for thus was John beforehand the Lord's forerunner, preparing His ways. Luke 1:76 Thus, too, does the angel, the witness of baptism, make the paths straight for the Holy Spirit, who is about to come upon us, by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, obtains. For if in the mouth of three witnesses every word shall stand: — while, through the benediction, we have the same (three) as witnesses of our faith whom we have as sureties of our salvation too — how much more does the number of the divine names suffice for the assurance of our hope likewise! Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under three witnesses, there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,) there is the Church, which is a body of three.

These comments reflect 1 John 5:7:For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
4,332
643
113
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
You seem to not be able to discern fact from opinion.

Make a Blessed Day!

I can discern fact from opinion.
That some scriptures refer to baptism in Jesus name (or similar) does not prove that was the formula for baptising.
That is your opinion
My opinion is that it was the designation used to distinguish it to John's baptism. A good example is Acts 19
1...Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
.
Different baptisms
I'm not so arrogant as to claim that my opinion is a fact.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,801
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That some scriptures refer to baptism in Jesus name (or similar) does not prove that was the formula for baptising.

IF Jesus commanded them to baptize in another formula and they did not, the only logical alternative is the Apostles repeatedly disobeyed the risen Lord.

I think more likely is Matthew 28:19 is a fraud as the documentation provides. Is the Trinity True or False?
Trinitarians often say Matthew 28:19 supports their belief stating that by the shared authority of these three we are commissioned to baptize. However, this verse in no way affirms the trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make one God. The “Holy Spirit” is the power and presence of God and of Christ and can function independently of themselves like a third, though not a literal third, and is how “They” represent “Themselves” where they are not personally present. So this verse refers to three but never says they are one and says nothing about their personality. Nobody denies there is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Matthew 28:19

So this verse does not say they are three beings,
it does not say they are three in one or one in three,
it does not say these three are the Godhead,
it does not say these three are a trinity,
it does not say these three are co-equal or co-eternal beings,
it does not say that these three are all God,
and yet some draw the conclusion that this supports their belief in the trinity which is clearly not so. Trinitarians are concluding something from this verse that it just does not say.

In any case, I find myself greatly perplexed by this verse, because where do we see the Apostles or anyone else for that matter following the explicit instructions of Christ here? Here are all verses where anyone was baptized into the name of anyone. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27. But as you can see, there is not one person following what Christ supposedly instructed them to do. In every verse we find people baptized into the name of our Lord Jesus Christ only. So why the apparent disobedience of the apostles?

The following dictionary explains, “The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus, not even an elaboration of a Jesus-saying on baptism.” — (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, p. 585). Further research revealed this to be the case as all Bible commentaries and dictionaries quoting on this issue claimed that it was added by the Church of Rome to support their Trinitarian formula. The quotes below state the origin of this baptismal formula.
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
4,332
643
113
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
IF Jesus commanded them to baptize in another formula and they did not, the only logical alternative is the Apostles repeatedly disobeyed the risen Lord.

I think more likely is Matthew 28:19 is a fraud as the documentation provides. Is the Trinity True or False?
Trinitarians often say Matthew 28:19 supports their belief stating that by the shared authority of these three we are commissioned to baptize. However, this verse in no way affirms the trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make one God. The “Holy Spirit” is the power and presence of God and of Christ and can function independently of themselves like a third, though not a literal third, and is how “They” represent “Themselves” where they are not personally present. So this verse refers to three but never says they are one and says nothing about their personality. Nobody denies there is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Matthew 28:19

So this verse does not say they are three beings,
it does not say they are three in one or one in three,
it does not say these three are the Godhead,
it does not say these three are a trinity,
it does not say these three are co-equal or co-eternal beings,
it does not say that these three are all God,
and yet some draw the conclusion that this supports their belief in the trinity which is clearly not so. Trinitarians are concluding something from this verse that it just does not say.

In any case, I find myself greatly perplexed by this verse, because where do we see the Apostles or anyone else for that matter following the explicit instructions of Christ here? Here are all verses where anyone was baptized into the name of anyone. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27. But as you can see, there is not one person following what Christ supposedly instructed them to do. In every verse we find people baptized into the name of our Lord Jesus Christ only. So why the apparent disobedience of the apostles?

The following dictionary explains, “The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus, not even an elaboration of a Jesus-saying on baptism.” — (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, p. 585). Further research revealed this to be the case as all Bible commentaries and dictionaries quoting on this issue claimed that it was added by the Church of Rome to support their Trinitarian formula. The quotes below state the origin of this baptismal formula.

I've shown in this thread or in the other one on the same topic that the early Church baptised in the Trinitarian formula.
If the baptismal formula was in Jesus name only then there would be consistency in the phrase, whereas we get
in the name of the Lord Jesus
in the name of Jesus Christ
into Christ Jesus
into Christ

The last 2 are not even in the name of.
If, as I suggested, these were just ways of distinguishing them from John's baptism, and Mt 28:19 is the baptismal formula, then there is no conflict.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
IF Jesus commanded them to baptize in another formula and they did not, the only logical alternative is the Apostles repeatedly disobeyed the risen Lord.

I think more likely is Matthew 28:19 is a fraud as the documentation provides. Is the Trinity True or False?
Trinitarians often say Matthew 28:19 supports their belief stating that by the shared authority of these three we are commissioned to baptize. However, this verse in no way affirms the trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make one God. The “Holy Spirit” is the power and presence of God and of Christ and can function independently of themselves like a third, though not a literal third, and is how “They” represent “Themselves” where they are not personally present. So this verse refers to three but never says they are one and says nothing about their personality. Nobody denies there is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Matthew 28:19

So this verse does not say they are three beings,
it does not say they are three in one or one in three,
it does not say these three are the Godhead,
it does not say these three are a trinity,
it does not say these three are co-equal or co-eternal beings,
it does not say that these three are all God,
and yet some draw the conclusion that this supports their belief in the trinity which is clearly not so. Trinitarians are concluding something from this verse that it just does not say.

In any case, I find myself greatly perplexed by this verse, because where do we see the Apostles or anyone else for that matter following the explicit instructions of Christ here? Here are all verses where anyone was baptized into the name of anyone. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27. But as you can see, there is not one person following what Christ supposedly instructed them to do. In every verse we find people baptized into the name of our Lord Jesus Christ only. So why the apparent disobedience of the apostles?

The following dictionary explains, “The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus, not even an elaboration of a Jesus-saying on baptism.” — (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, p. 585). Further research revealed this to be the case as all Bible commentaries and dictionaries quoting on this issue claimed that it was added by the Church of Rome to support their Trinitarian formula. The quotes below state the origin of this baptismal formula.
2000 yrs history of the church does
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,828
4,156
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I’m not hostile to positions or beliefs I don’t share, just absurd or illogical rationalizing.



There is only one God, the Father. He is Spirit. His Spirit is Holy. There is no 3rd being or person.

Your questions are irrelevant to the thread. Stop rationalizing.

Dear Wrangler,
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are Echad but you choose, key word here, choose to reject the commandment of Jehovah.

Everyone, pay attention to the commandment of Jehovah -
Then Moses asked God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?” 14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.…

If we argue against God and try and tell Him who He is or is not = then we do not believe Him. If we do not believe Him we are the sons of disobedience and subject to His wrath.
Worse mistake anyone can make is to be high minded and start adding too and taking away from God's Word - the penalty for that sin is eternal separation from God.

In the beginning God - Genesis 1:1
In the beginning was the Word - John 1:1

Abraham - Father of Nations
Isaac - Only begotten of the Father
Jacob - Holy Spirit

Jesus is Jehovah = Isaiah 44:6 and Revelations 1:1-8
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,801
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If we argue against God and try and tell Him who He is or is not = then we do not believe Him.

Saying this does not make it true. You are substituting the word of God with trinitarianism. The Apostles did not Repeatedly Disobey the Risen Lord; he told them to baptize people in his name - not the name of F,S & HS - and that is what they did. Simple.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,801
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No mention of co-equal, co-substantial or co-eternal. What's more, it doesn't say anything like if you do not believe this 3is1, you cannot be saved.

Now who is inventing a standard in a desperate attempt to support your doctrine?

LOL You are desperate. If there were a shred of Scriptural teaching explicit on the trinitarian doctrine - like 3 are co-equal, co-substantial or co-eternal - it would be the most quoted verse in the Bible.

The delusion is so complete, you cannot even admit the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the doctrine. It is such an important doctrine it is not mentioned ONCE in 66 books. The reason is simple. The authors of the Bible were Jews who reject the trinity to this day as they embrace monotheism.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,828
4,156
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Saying this does not make it true. You are substituting the word of God with trinitarianism. The Apostles did not Repeatedly Disobey the Risen Lord; he told them to baptize people in his name - not the name of F,S & HS - and that is what they did. Simple.
\\

If we argue against God and try and tell Him who He is or is not = then we do not believe Him.

Nothing more relevant to this forum than that.
 

Desire Of All Nations

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2021
748
408
63
Troy
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The matter is easily resolved by illumination from this passage:

1Jn 5:6-12 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. (7) For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. (9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. (10) He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. (11) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. (12) He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Everything between "heaven" and "the Spirit" in verse 8 was added by trinitarian translators because they knew they couldn't prove the trinity doctrine was biblical. That 1 Jhn 5 passages is actually supposed to read "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one". The doctrine being taught in that passage concerns water baptism, the blood that is used to blot out sins, and the Spirit that is given to a converted Christian upon repentance and baptism. Nothing about God being a trinity is taught there.

Modern translations that weren't based on the Latin Vulgate like the GNT correctly renders that passage as it was in the original manuscripts.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,801
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
\\

If we argue against God and try and tell Him who He is or is not = then we do not believe Him.

Nothing more relevant to this forum than that.

And that is EXACTLY what trinitarian do in oppositionto his word which is completely void of the trinity and it’s doctrine.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,828
4,156
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And that is EXACTLY what trinitarian do in oppositionto his word which is completely void of the trinity and it’s doctrine.

On each of your posts you have the Shema, but you do not understand it, neither do the unbelieving Jews who recite it daily.