Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!

[stunnedbygrace]

Those whom He had rescued from the sea. Not those whom were born of Him.

Much love!

why does the apostle even bring it up then? What is he trying to get them to see?

 

[marks]

So…it isn’t wise to tell people to not keep trusting God. But it is wise to tell them it’s not through their remaining in trust that they are saved…?

What is it to be "saved"? What does that mean? I've found on this forum it means very different things to different people.

Much love!

 

[marks]

why does the apostle even bring it up then? What is he trying to get them to see?

That we aren't immune to sin, but that there is a way out, so run from idols. Among other things.

Much love!

 

[Grailhunter]

Paul told the Legalists Of His Day? Paul also called some “ Perverts”:

The only "legalist" in that day are the only legalist of today....Judaizers and those that want to mix Christianity with Judaism.

The Truth is God HATES Leaven and False , Perverted Gospels ......I hate them too....Paul would have “ Cast out” a Gospel,Perverter like “just by faith” ( that name—- what a joke! ) ...We lack the power To eject gospel Perverters in here like Paul would....the next best thing is to shine light on these types of False Teachers and if it hurts them just a little bit , that can be a good thing.....” If you can’t stand the Heat, stay out of the Kitchen.....” keep False Teachers in the Kitchen If you like.....give them a “ pity party” .....I’d rather see them leave.....I sincerely felt sorry for the guy and prayed for him often....But we STILL must do what Paul said to do with these types ( Paul never even said to PRAY for them) .....He said to “ Cast Out the Bondwoman and her Son”—- your “ compassion” for the guy only encouraged him and gave him the opportunity to spew his Legalism on Newbies that don’t know any better.....the less exposure newbies get to these modern- Day Judaizers the better off they are...I did the right thing by getting him out of here.....”a little Leaven leavens the whole Batch....” does that mean NOTHING to you guys.....His “ Condition ” May have been a curse for preaching a False Gospel and God said to let them be “ Accursed” ......Maybe your argument is with God and not me.....

What you preach is about the only perverted Gospel I hear here. Paul continually supported morals and reprimand those of poor morals. The only legalists he opposed were Judaizers. You are a cherry picker to the extreme....you even cherry pick Paul.
Be good and do good.

 

[marks]

And what if we don’t keep our trust? Why does the apostle say “if”? And if we look at the work of Moses as an illustration of Jesus and us, is it wise to say our trust saves us but it is not necessary to continue in that trust?

I'd check the grammar on that one. Many of these passages are promoted to show salvation lost, but the syntax doesn't support it. But I don't recall on this one at the moment.

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<WHO did God later become displeased with? Wasn’t it those He had saved?>>>

Saved from what? Was that salvation unto eternal life?

1And so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God anda are partners with those called to heaven, think carefully about this Jesus whom we declare to be God’s messengerb and High Priest. 2For he was faithful to God, who appointed him, just as Moses served faithfully when he was entrusted with God’s entirec house.

3But Jesus deserves far more glory than Moses, just as a person who builds a house deserves more praise than the house itself. 4For every house has a builder, but the one who built everything is God.

5Moses was certainly faithful in God’s house as a servant. His work was an illustration of the truths God would reveal later. 6But Christ, as the Son, is in charge of God’s entire house. And we are God’s house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ.d

7That is why the Holy Spirit says,



“Today when you hear his voice,

8don’t harden your hearts

as Israel did when they rebelled,

when they tested me in the wilderness.

9There your ancestors tested and tried my patience,

even though they saw my miracles for forty years.

10So I was angry with them, and I said,

‘Their hearts always turn away from me.

They refuse to do what I tell them.’

11So in my anger I took an oath:

‘They will never enter my place of rest.’”e



12Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters.f Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. 13You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. 14For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. 15Remember what it says:



“Today when you hear his voice,

don’t harden your hearts

as Israel did when they rebelled.”g



16And who was it who rebelled against God, even though they heard his voice? Wasn’t it the people Moses led out of Egypt? 17And who made God angry for forty years? Wasn’t it the people who sinned, whose corpses lay in the wilderness? 18And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter his rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? 19So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.

so, it says Mosesworks were an illustration of what God would later reveal. So…no, not eternal life, but an illustration of it. So they didn’t continue in trust, and the apostle says to take care that his listeners hearts do not become evil and untrusting as their hearts did.

<<<So…no, not eternal life, but an illustration of it.>>>

That’s right. It is not unto eternal life. Besides, I take that part of biblical history concerning Moses and the children of Israel who were then in slavery in Egypt, as a shadow of a reality, the reality of which was revealed in Jesus Christ, who is the light. And as the light enables us to see clearly than the shadow, I take the light to understand that part of biblical history and not the other way around.

Tong
R4217

 

[BloodBought 1953]

That includes the false gospel that the blood of Christ saves people who choose to purposely sin in unbelief.

Maybe......maybe not....I have explained my position.....I know a man can be a Believer and then lose their Faith ( many do when they go to college, I think....it played a part in my loss of faith) and then be brought back to it.....The Eternal Promises That you qualified for when you were a Believer( “ I will Finish the work that I started”, etc) wiukd still hold true no matter what “ you” do......when you Believed, God Promised
to “ Save you to the Uttermost”...... that Promise STILl must be fulfilled.....DESPITE YOURSELF and your Stupidity..... ( or simply Satan at work).......Something WAY MORE IMPORTANT than your individual Salvation is at stake here——- GOD’S WORD! We can’t always trust ourselves , but we can Certainly Trust THAT. If at any time you “Believed in Him”.....you have His Promises...You are “ already Saved” and “ NOTHING can cause you to come under Condemnation”..... “ Nothing” would include your Foolishness and the attempted works of Satan.....

 

[marks]

You will work it through with Gods help. You keep saying belief, which is trust. So to my mind, you are saying, it is necessary to trust God but it is not necessary to continue in that trust. But I don’t think you really believe or even do that.

Is being born again somethat that God did when you believed, or something God keeps doing as you keep believing? If the first, then you are reborn, and rebirth is shown, among other ways, in the fact that you continue in faith. If the second, continued faith is required to maintained continued rebirth.

This discussion has been going round for some months now.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hebrews 10:26 seems to leave that part off.

No, it's there.
Note in the passage how deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth is compared to rejecting the law of Moses:

26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,”f and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”g 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:26
​

I believe the author is making reference to Deuteronomy 29:19-20...

"...when such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my own heart.’

20The LORD will never be willing to forgive him. Instead, His anger and jealousy will burn against that man
​

It's correlation to the Hebrews 10:26-31 passage is obvious. The context of the passage is turning away from the Lord, not just failures of the believer growing up into the Lord. Turning away from the Lord in the deliberate disobedience associated with unbelief is what constitutes the 'deliberately sinning' the author of Hebrews is speaking about.

Notice vs. 19...

‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my own heart.’​

That is exactly the summary thinking of the Hyper Grace movement. The author of Hebrews is saying, the outcome of the person who thinks that in this New Covenant will not only face the same fate, but worse! And yet they persist in their willful sin because their ears have been tickled by the likes of Andrew Farley who told them Hebrews 10:26 isn't talking about them. Wouldn't want to be Andrew Farley on the Day of Christ. Ouch!

​

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is being born again somethat that God did when you believed, or something God keeps doing as you keep believing? If the first, then you are reborn, and rebirth is shown, among other ways, in the fact that you continue in faith. If the second, continued faith is required to maintained continued rebirth.

This discussion has been going round for some months now.

Much love!

I think it is true that once you will live forever, you will live forever.
But we see from what we read that some men will live forever in outer darkness.

And to confuse it all, most men think everyone will live forever…

 

[marks]

Be good and do good.

So you can be saved, correct?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Will you please explain to me one more time the difference between sinning and sinning in unbelief?

Example: The Christian cheating on his taxes because he gets scared for himself, vs. the 'Christian' who cheats on his taxes because he doesn't care about Christ, the forgiveness he has received and the New Covenant.

 

[marks]

I think it is true that once you will live forever, you will live forever.
But we see from what we read that some men will live forever in outer darkness.

Including God's children? Is that what you see?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Example: The Christian cheating on his taxes because you get scared for himself, vs. the person who cheats on his taxes because he doesn't care about Christ, His forgiveness and the New Covenant.

Parsing sins.

Are you aware that ALL sin is the same, the works of the flesh? Whatever the circumstance, whatever the "flavor", whatever your opinions or perceptions of what sort of sin this is, they are all works of the flesh. No sin originates in the new man. None.

Do you agree with this?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Including God's children? Is that what you see?

Much love!

It would be a long conversation.

 

[marks]

I think it is true that once you will live forever,

Assuming that the core of a man is not created durable.

Much love!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Sometimes it's like that. Other things take determined restraint to not cave into. The writer of Hebrews says, "In your struggle with sin...", and to the point of "shedding your blood" (Hebrews 12:4). That doesn't sound like 'it just goes away naturally' as you are suggesting. My besetting sins did not go away that way. I had to rely on God in a big way. I had nothing to offer to the battle except to sit before God in defeat. You've had a different experience than that?

More like a combination of “ transformation” and “ chastisement”......I do what I want to do, as everybody does in the end, and God keeps changing my “wants” —— a New Creation with a New Heart has different “ Wants” that he formerly did,,...” all things are lawful to me” Paul said.....it's like that....I am free to do whatever I want.....knowing “that” has just the opposite effect that a worldly mind would conjure up......I am free to do what I want—- what do I want? I want to take my Freedom to be His Slave.....lol.....I’ve said it before.....ain’t Christianity wild? A Carnal mind can’t comprehend what I am saying.....Blessed men can....I am a “ Free Man in Christ”..... it is my goal to spread it....wanna join me? “ Try it— You’ll Like it”.....

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What is it to be "saved"? What does that mean? I've found on this forum it means very different things to different people.

Much love!

Most I run across think saved means to live forever. I think saved means…to have Gods Spirit in you.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Eternal Promises That you qualified for when you were a Believer( “ I will Finish the work that I started”, etc) wiukd still hold true no matter what “ you” do......when you Believed, God Promised
to “ Save you to the Uttermost”...... that Promise STILl must be fulfilled.....DESPITE YOURSELF and your Stupidity.

No, the Bible says the promises are for BELIEVING PEOPLE, not unbelieving people. You cease to be the recipient of the promises that God said are for presently believing people:

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. " 1 Corinthians 15:2​

Hyper Grace theology says Paul is wrong. It says you are saved even if you don't hold firmly to the word of the gospel preached to you.

At least I don't have to convince Hyper Grace people that a true believer can stop believing. They know that. What they need to be convinced of is that Paul is not lying when he said you are saved IF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL.

 

[marks]

And to confuse it all, most men think everyone will live forever…

Doctrines of annihilation of the sinner do have a profound impact on how someone will interpret the Bible, involving dramatic changes in understandings.

Much love!