The Only Problem With The Trinity

[Aunty Jane]

About everything? Do any of us agree 100% in every matter of theology, eschatology, and will those differences have any direct impact on our destiny?

I guess that depends on whether you subscribe to Christendom's mainstream teachings or not. I was raised in Christendom but never could get a handle on what they taught and believed. If something doesn't make sense to me, it just annoys the daylights out of me.
So I believe that doctrinally Christians have to be on the same page as Jesus was....these are his teaching we are supposed to be following and just calling yourself a Christian without living like one doesn't wash IMV. (Matthew 7:21-23)

So doctrinally, after much research and Bible study I rejected the trinity.....immortality of the human soul, and a hell of fiery torment. Those were the 'biggies' for me. And the Bible proved to me that these teaching are not from God's word but from the "weeds" (counterfeit Christianity) that Jesus warned were coming into the world at the hand of the devil. It isn't obvious until you strip away what is at the base of the teaching that you see it for what it is....lies. Something the devil is good at.

There were other ideas too, like infant baptism and the expectation that 'all good people go to heaven'. I could not justify these from scripture. So there has to be agreement about what the Bible teaches and what it doesn't...I think that is fundamental. My challenge was to find those who didn't teach those things.

What is it by which we are saved... Our correct theology or the blood of the Lamb?

Both as far as I can tell. The blood of the Lamb will not save you if your doctrines somehow justify what Christ never taught and in fact actually condemned. Like Matthew 5:43-45...
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

There is no room for taking part or even tacitly supporting bloodshed in national conflicts. There is no justification for killing or in even being part of the military to train to kill other human beings.....Jesus words above tell us so. But how many can put their patriotism aside and employ their Christianity especially when the clergy of Christendom are right there in the thick of it? If they were doing their job, they would be telling their charges to lay down their weapons under Jesus' instructions. (Isaiah 1:15)

I also see in James that we need both faith and works, rather than one or the other. I see "Christians" fighting over faith verses works all the time...and its a non-argument as far as I can see.
James 2:24-26...
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
Rahab was a sinner but her actions in concealing the spies earned her salvation. She had faith because she put her own life on the line in order to save God's servants, so she demonstrated that faith by her works. God doesn't care what you were....he only cares about what you are right now. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
Do we assume that she went back to her prostitution after that rescue? Once saved, is not always saved...you need to keep the faith till your last breath. We have to endure to the end, faithful....or there will be no salvation. (Matthew 24:13)

Are we going to sin.....probably yes, because its inherent in every one of us, but a moment of weakness is not the same as pre-meditated sin. Any deliberate action contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ without remorse or repentance, will not gain forgiveness. Those will forfeit the blessings of the Kingdom.

What are we being "saved" from after all? What do you believe that we are getting saved from?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Don't misunderstand me though, I think correct theology is important because errors affect how we approach God and how we characterize Him before an unbelieving world. It's just that I believe there will be many in glory who during this life, didn't have all their theological ducks in a nice pretty basket with a neat ribbon attached. God is merciful and gracious, even to the stupid and ignorant and me

God truly is merciful and gracious but that doesn't mean that he excuses us when we know better. We are accountable for our actions.

I don't believe that all Christians end up in glory either. I see that God has his "elect" which means to me that they are specially chosen to become "kings and priests" in God's Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)
It occurred to me that if these elect were in heaven, then who would they serve as priests, and who would be their subjects as rulers? There are no sinners in heaven, and kings do not rule one another.

I see the Kingdom of God as something that will rule over mankind here on this earth.
As mankind's only ruling authority, I see in Daniel's prophesies that God's kingdom will crush all failed and corrupt human rulership out of existence, and replace them. (Daniel 2:44)

This earth is where God put us in the first place and I have read Genesis over and over and nowhere do I see mention of a heaven or hell scenario given to Adam...or anyone else in the OT for that matter.

The ancient Jews had no belief in immortal souls either. In Solomon's time he lamented that animals and humans had the same destiny. They breathe the same air and die the same death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
He also said that "For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." (Eccl 9:5, 10)
So in researching Hebrew words in a concordance I found that "sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "hades".

So in hades the dead don't know anything, they are not in a conscious state which means that they can't do anything, plan anything, or even exercise their knowledge or wisdom.....so IOW, the dead are actually dead. Death is the cessation of life, not a doorway to a continuation of it.
So no immortal soul in Hebrew scripture.

Hades is therefore not "hell" as I was raised to believe. It is simply mankind's grave, where the dead 'sleep' awaiting the resurrection. (Like Lazarus in John 11:11-14)
Now, in all my years in church no one ever explained what resurrection meant to a Jew. (John 11:23-24) But it all makes sense to me now.

No Jew had a belief in going to heaven because it was never offered. All the Israelites were offered was "life or death"....never were they told about heaven or hell. (Deuteronomy 30:19-20) So this is where Christendom and I parted company. I could not find their doctrines in the Bible. Jesus was Jewish and he taught his disciples from Jewish scripture....all of his teachings reflected that.

I hope that all made sense....

 

[Cooper]

~

The only understanding that has been made know to me about the trinity.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The Word was with God in the Beginning.
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.

Notice Word: Word was with with, and was God and was at the Beginning.

Now the Word: maybe it was in a the form of a shape; all I know is that have no idea what the Word looks like of God and have no ability to see it; Yes the Word was made flesh. This scripture however is still talking about in the Beginning; was the Word with, and was God.

To me the was God is this: the Word of God was a part of God. When God spoke; the Word then had the power to create. So God spoke through the Word -> in which Created the light, heavens, and earth, the Word was with God in the beginning.

The Word was with God, was apart of God (as the mouthpiece), and was with God in the beginning.

The Word - What does that look to do you?

~~~

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

~~~

The Father : God ; our Father - Jesus Christ's Father, : God is a spirit ~ Not flesh and bones.

~~~

By and through scripture you can understand these concepts. Though many people like to argue against trinity and whatever, but no one will ever be 100% on it ever period in this lifetime.

My conclusions is that I just do not see 3 people in 1 God. Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Father are completely worthy of trusting and placing hope in.

I used to think the Word was the DNA profile of Jesus, but I have no evidence to back it up. I used to say that on a university forum composed largely of atheist scientists, and nobody ever argued to my surprise. They seemed to think the code explained the Big Bang.
.

 

[Brakelite]

God truly is merciful and gracious but that doesn't mean that he excuses us when we know better. We are accountable for our actions.

I don't believe that all Christians end up in glory either. I see that God has his "elect" which means to me that they are specially chosen to become "kings and priests" in God's Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)
It occurred to me that if these elect were in heaven, then who would they serve as priests, and who would be their subjects as rulers? There are no sinners in heaven, and kings do not rule one another.

I see the Kingdom of God as something that will rule over mankind here on this earth.
As mankind's only ruling authority, I see in Daniel's prophesies that God's kingdom will crush all failed and corrupt human rulership out of existence, and replace them. (Daniel 2:44)

This earth is where God put us in the first place and I have read Genesis over and over and nowhere do I see mention of a heaven or hell scenario given to Adam...or anyone else in the OT for that matter.

The ancient Jews had no belief in immortal souls either. In Solomon's time he lamented that animals and humans had the same destiny. They breathe the same air and die the same death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
He also said that "For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." (Eccl 9:5, 10)
So in researching Hebrew words in a concordance I found that "sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "hades".

So in hades the dead don't know anything, they are not in a conscious state which means that they can't do anything, plan anything, or even exercise their knowledge or wisdom.....so IOW, the dead are actually dead. Death is the cessation of life, not a doorway to a continuation of it.
So no immortal soul in Hebrew scripture.

Hades is therefore not "hell" as I was raised to believe. It is simply mankind's grave, where the dead 'sleep' awaiting the resurrection. (Like Lazarus in John 11:11-14)
Now, in all my years in church no one ever explained what resurrection meant to a Jew. (John 11:23-24) But it all makes sense to me now.

No Jew had a belief in going to heaven because it was never offered. All the Israelites were offered was "life or death"....never were they told about heaven or hell. (Deuteronomy 30:19-20) So this is where Christendom and I parted company. I could not find their doctrines in the Bible. Jesus was Jewish and he taught his disciples from Jewish scripture....all of his teachings reflected that.

I hope that all made sense....

I also reject the natural immortality of the soul, and eternal torment.

What are we being "saved" from after all? What do you believe that we are getting saved from?

I prefer to think we are being saved for something, not from something, although of course both apply. Thanks for your replies... Well said

 

[MatthewG]

To me all people have been saved from Satan and his Demons, Grave (She'ol/Hell), Death, Sin because of the Victory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Though there may be those out there who have not been saved unto the kingdom of God ~ Which being saved unto the kingdom of God is by accepting faith and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

People may believe that this is a wrong view but this is the view that is held by me is that all people have been saved from Satan, his demons, grave (She'ol/Hell, death, Sin all people have been saved from these things because of the death and resurrection of Christ; though it takes faith to be saved to the kingdom of God.

 

[Wrangler]

Hello everyone...I'm new here and as this is one of my favourite topics, I will have to agree with Wrangler here....

Welcome to the forums. Loved your post! Your understanding and analysis of Greek profoundly reveal how translators attempt to impose trinitarian doctrine unto unitarian text.

Check out my thread on the Case Against Trinitarianism. It ended up getting hijacked, then closed.

I’ve made the point that trinitarianism depends on violating
Definition
Logic
Language Usage

For instance, in many verses, such as Acts 17:31, God (not ‘the Father,’ but God, in his unitarian nature) is the subject of the sentence. God is the one doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. This reveals they are not one being/person, etc.

Theologically, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. The Jews are monotheists to this day. Jesus was a monotheist as he explicitly said in John 17:3. In Mark 12:29 Jesus correctly stated the most important command is the Sh'ma, which says God is alone, one, not a trinity.

Then, of course, there is the 1C, using singular ‘me.’ God held it so important to recognize His singular primacy over other gods, such as the ‘trinitarian god’ that He put it 1st. None of this means anything to trinitarianism.


Deuteronomy 6:4
Complete Jewish Bible

(A:vi, S: v) 4 “Sh’ma, Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad[Hear, Isra’el! Adonai our God, Adonai is one];

 

[Brakelite]

Welcome to the forums. Loved your post! Your understanding and analysis of Greek profoundly reveal how translators attempt to impose trinitarian doctrine unto unitarian text.

Check out my thread on the Case Against Trinitarianism. It ended up getting hijacked, then closed.

I’ve made the point that trinitarianism depends on violating
Definition
Logic
Language Usage

For instance, in many verses, such as Acts 17:31, God (not ‘the Father,’ but God, in his unitarian nature) is the subject of the sentence. God is the one doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. This reveals they are not one being/person, etc.

Theologically, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. The Jews are monotheists to this day. Jesus was a monotheist as he explicitly said in John 17:3. In Mark 12:29 Jesus correctly stated the most important command is the Sh'ma, which says God is alone, one, not a trinity.

Then, of course, there is the 1C, using singular ‘me.’ God held it so important to recognize His singular primacy over other gods, such as the ‘trinitarian god’ that He put it 1st. None of this means anything to trinitarianism.


Deuteronomy 6:4
Complete Jewish Bible

(A:vi, S: v) 4 “Sh’ma, Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad[Hear, Isra’el! Adonai our God, Adonai is one];

While I agree with you regarding the Trinity doctrine as portrayed in the creeds and many church manuals, I cannot agree with you regarding the Son. I have read 1 John numerous times. No where is there any hint that the relationship between Jesus and the Father is anything other than real. The Father/Son paradigm is not metaphorical. Nor did the Father become a Father at the incarnation. They two were two separate beings, persons, before creation, the Father creating all things through the agency of His Son.
KJV Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Son is the express image of the Father, begotten with all the fullness of the Godhead. The Father is God, and the Son is God manifest.
Picture if you will two windows. Before creation. Before anything outside of God was created. God alone. No universe. No worlds. No angels. Just God. He fills the first window. That's all there is in that window. God and God alone. Then the Son is begotten. He isn't created, because scripture tells us the Son created everything. So He doesn't belong in the second window, He belongs in the first. He inherited all things from the Father. All that the Father is, the Son is.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
Jesus told Nicodemus that God “gave” His Son. This is the everlasting gospel. If God did not possess a son then He would not have had a son to give. It must follow therefore that Christ was God’s “only begotten Son” before He came to earth.
That God gave His Son as a sacrifice for sin is the core-belief of Christianity. Without this belief, Christianity is meaningless. It is therefore a subject that not only demands our fullest attention but also needs great care when being presented. To get it wrong will pervert the gospel. A correct understanding of the atonement is totally dependent on a correct understanding of the relationship between God the Father and His Son.
Those who teach that Christ is not really the Son of God are perverting what it cost God in redeeming mankind from sin. They are also perverting, in the minds of those who believe what they say, the love that God has for humanity.
The apostle Paul wrote
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” Romans 8:3
“He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” Romans 8:32
When expressing this great truth to his little flock, John the gospel writer put it this way
“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” 1 John 4:7-11
It is only when we realize that God really did give His Son that we can say we truly understand the gospel. Any other understanding of it is a perversion. In order to make manifest God’s love in the way that we treat others we need to correctly understand what God has done through His Son. It is only when we see the ‘other person’ (whoever that may be) as someone purchased by the blood of God’s only begotten Son that we are able to treat that person as they should be treated. Christ died for everyone. He did not die only for those who will be saved. We must regard everyone as the purchase of God. There are no exceptions.
John also wrote
“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?…He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.” 1 John 5:5, 10-11
Begotten in the express image of God’s person
The Scriptures also tell us
“For it pleased the Father that in him [in Christ] should all fulness dwell; Colossians” 1:19
This is referring to the fullness of deity. As it says in Colossians 2:9
“For in him [in Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
The Scriptures tell us that it was God’s pleasure to have His fullness dwell in the Son. Christ therefore was God Himself (the fullness of deity) in the person of the Son (John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:1-3). This was Christ’s inheritance as a son. As a son He received (inherited) all things from His father (God the Father). As we are told in the opening verses of the book of Hebrews
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:” Hebrews 1:1-3

 

[MatthewG]

So glad regardless of disagreements and intellectual understanding is that.

God still loves you regardless.

What a wonderful truth to hold and make known.

 

[dev553344]

My "religion" should make no difference to the Bible's message. The Bible I believe, speaks for itself. Its message will only make sense to those who have God's invitation. (John 6:44; 65) I am merely a messenger.

Like I said there are only two roads....God does not see 'denominations', he just sees those who are following the teachings of his son and those who are not. His true disciples will all have to speak in agreement otherwise they are not part of his spiritual family. (1 Cor 1:10)

The problem I see is that your interpretation of the bible doesn't suggest Jesus is God. At least that is what you argued. Might I suggest joining an orthodox church and studying under someone that agrees with the majority of people that read the bible.

I noticed that you were rationalizing away the true meaning of the scripture passages. I think we've all been there and done that, but it is not correct to do so.

Anyways, the vast majority of readers of the bible should be getting the same message. That means you're understanding it correctly and not having a flawed understanding. I would suggest going with the majority, which agrees with the trinity.

 

[Wrangler]

The problem I see is that your interpretation of the bible doesn't suggest Jesus is God.

That is only a problem for those who hold their man-made doctrines above the word of God. Jesus is called the Son of God. Logic dictates that he cannot be God.

 

[Wrangler]

I would suggest going with the majority, which agrees with the trinity.

LOL. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the doctrine.

 

[Wrangler]

No where is there any hint that the relationship between Jesus and the Father is anything other than real.

I’m not sure what you mean by this but there are passages that say God selected Jesus. Adoptionism. We are all chosen by God. Our relationship with God is real.

 

[dev553344]

That is only a problem for those who hold their man-made doctrines above the word of God. Jesus is called the Son of God. Logic dictates that he cannot be God.

Not true Wrangler, I will direct you to the bible word on Jesus the Christ the Messiah:

Isaiah 9:6

King James Version

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Wrangler]

Not true Wrangler, I will direct you to the bible word on Jesus the Christ the Messiah:

Isaiah 9:6

It is true. Logic does not fail. The son of God is logically not God.

Isaiah does not even refer to Jesus.

Even if it did, do you know the difference between being called something and being that thing?

 

[Brakelite]

I’m not sure what you mean by this.

I thought that what I wrote was quite clear. Read it again, and whatever you can't understand, let me know.

The son of God is logically not God.

The begotten Son of God can only be God. Just as the children begotten by me can only be human.

 

[Cooper]

It should not be assumed that when God made himself visible to the human eye, that there are two Gods.
.

 

[MatthewG]

So thankful that God doesn't care if you believe in the trinity or not.

God desires for us to care and love Him first, and to love others.

What a great relief. Of course sure it is fun to talk about the trinity because it such an unproven reality that people find it fascinating to talk about, and this will never go away even after our death here on earth.

Extremely interesting but also something to be thankful for; is that even through it God, and Jesus Christ continue to get talked about.

Always a joy to look towards God and the Lord Jesus Christ; Our salvation. Lord God Almighty.

Wonderful News.

 

[amadeus]

Oh boy, a new show...munch, munch...

New to you my friend, but is anything really new?

 

[Truman]

New to you my friend, but is anything really new?

Not under this sun! Lol
I just looked...you've been here a long time!

 

[amadeus]

Anyways, the vast majority of readers of the bible should be getting the same message. That means you're understanding it correctly and not having a flawed understanding. I would suggest going with the majority, which agrees with the trinity.

This my friend appears to be following by God according to a democratic majority instead of by faith. What is faith?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

When Jesus presented a simply message at the beginning of his ministry and performed many physical miracles of healing and feeding of the masses, he was loved and pursued, if too often for the wrong reasons:

"And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled." John 6:25-26

Those followers had eaten when Jesus had fed thousands from a few loaves of bread, but they now wanted more of that rather than this:

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life... John 6:27

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

As Jesus moved on in his ministry from the milk of the Word to the meat many who had followed him turned and walked away from him. For their tastes he was giving too little of the free bread made barley and too much of that heavy meaty Word of God!

So heavy they would not follow him any more:

"Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?" John 6:60

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

Jesus expressed a willingness to walk on all alone rather than to compromise the Truth. His followers effectively were asking the same question as the pagan governor, Pontius Pilate: "What is Truth"!

Peter gave the right answer, but there were many who walked away:
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jesus had the Word! What man has the Word? Certainly not the majority of those filling the pews, or even of those who read their Bibles.


We should not fill in any gaps or doubts in our knowledge with what the majority is saying or supporting. Rather simply follow Jesus and leave the gaps and the doubts until God fills them definitely. Will God fill them? If they are needed He will, but only God knows for certain what is needed as opposed to only wanted.