OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Gadgetere]

You can countermand God?

Not at all; we are discussing what the command of God is in the first place. Do you hold to "limited atonement" (Jesus did not die for all, but only for the few predestined -- a facet of Calvinism)? I perceive atonement is unlimited.

I'm surprised at your answer. To be clear, what God claims ownership of, you can claim different, and you believe your claim will stand?

How are we enrolled in salvation? Under "Limited Atonement", it's not really a choice. (There is a sub-doctrine called "Compatibilism" that seeks to connect free will with sovereign determinism; but it fails.) If we have the freedom to choose Him or sin (and what else can passages like Jn3:18-21 mean), then why don't we have the same freedom tomorrow, or the next day?

What do we choose, and when?

Many people have a very different view of salvation tha(n) I do it seems.

There seems to be this idea that we transact our salvation with God day by day. Day by day we see if we will remain reborn, remain in grace, remain saved. That we're constantly trying to appease a God Who is perfectly willing to toss us away.

God never tosses us away; He never fails, He never leaves nor forsakes us. But -- (you just knew I was gonna say that) --- in Heb10:35 it admonishes us, "Do not throw away your confidence". Exactly what is our confidence? (Hint -- Heb10:19 & 6:19-20)

My idea is that we are recreated righteous beings, children of God, His family. That having rescued us from sin and death, God now has what He wants, and will keep the purchased possession.

Please look at this:

"Although you were formerly alienated and hostile, doing evil deeds, yet now He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue firmly established and steadfast and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel…" Col1:22-23​

What does that mean to you? Why is it conditional? "IF you continue firm & steadfast and not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel". CAN we be unsteadfast, loose, and be moved away from the Hope?

What is "the Hope of the Gospel"? (Hint -- 1Tim1:1)

The thing about Scripture, "all is inspired by God" (2Tim3:16), including the New Testament. We cannot discard anything. If our doctrine seems to fit one verse, but conflicts others, what should we do? Ignore the others, or change the doctrine?

 

[Gadgetere]

What does it mean to you to be "saved"?.

And THAT, is the $64,000 question! What is "saved"? In Matt25 Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. What's the difference? What do the sheep have, that the goats don't? Jesus remarks on things they do -- but we know salvation is NOT what we do (Eph2:8, Rom11:6, Titus 3:5, Greek "ergon" deeds-we-do). What do the sheep have?

Per 1Jn1:11-13, he who has JESUS has eternal life. Greek is "echo" -- grasp, possess. He who possesses Jesus.

Look at this:

"I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Gal2:20​

Is that a "nice hopeful some-day event"? Or is it central and critical? Can we be saved WITHOUT being crucified (dead to sin), and indwelt by Jesus? Emphatically, NO! As such, it is impossible to walk in sin (be carnal!) because He indwells us and He will not participate in sin! We read 1Jn3, "no one born of God sins; he who practices sin is of the devil" -- but yet there are some here still discussing "carnal Christian"! No, being Christian is very much like a woman being pregnant. She is not PARTLY pregnant, a little, sorta, she either IS, or is NOT. So too we either belong to Jesus, or to sin! How is it we can read clear verses like "no one born of God practices sin", but we brush verses aside to continue in doctrines like carnal-saved?

And we brush aside verses like Heb3:12-14, and Col1:21-23 but still assert "Oh we cannot be moved away from Jesus and salvation"? We read 1Tim4:1, some WILL fall away from the faith paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. We read 2Cor11:3, we are at the SAME risk of "deception away from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Jesus", as Eve experienced in the Garden. And it is as if we subconsciously stamp them "NOT REALLY" (because we have these verses over HERE that say "we cannot become unsaved") --- and we walk away confident our OSAS view persists, seemingly oblivious that we have left many verses lying on the table waving at us as we leave, crying:

"HEY! What about us?"​

What about them? Isn't ALL Scripture inspired by God? (2Tim3:16) Don't we have to accommodate all of them?

What does "justification" mean to you?

Look at this:

"(God is) just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."​

God is justifying (present active participle) of he of the faith in Jesus.

So many times "believe", is present active participle; Jn3:16 "that whosoever IS BELIEVING". Does any of this prohibit the idea that if we cease to be believing, God ceases to be justifying? No!

"Reconciliation"?

2Cor5:19-20 states that God was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself; therefore, ...BE reconciled to God!" That sound like a "one-time-event", "done-deal"? No; it fits all of the warnings to "not be moved away from Jesus", doesn't it?

I have a feeling that these words mean something very different to you than they do to me.

Doesn't matter what they mean to you, or to me; we must uncover what they meant to the writers.

 

[Gadgetere]

Is the discipline of the Lord effective to His children? According to this passage, yes it is, always,

Hebrews 12:1-13 KJV
1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13) And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

So then how is the child to be lost?

The Father will discipline as needed, and His discipline is always effective. How then will you be lost, if you are INDEED His child?

We discussed this. How is it I read verses 7-8 and see "we WERE partners (metochos) in His discipline, but if we are NOW WITHOUT His discipline then we are now NOT SONS but ILLEGITIMATE"? If we were subject to His discipline, were we "saved sons"? If we are now without His discipline and are not-sons but illegitimate, are we "still saved"?

How does verse 9 NOT present a constant choice to "continue in His discipline and live, or not"?

How does verse 25 not apply to us? "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God!"

What do you think when you read those verses?

 

[Gadgetere]

My thoughts as well, why is there a need to be chastined if we are supposedly sinless?

Hi, H2S. The question is asked of you also -- Heb12:7-8 teaches that we WERE partakers/partners in His discipline (any way that could be "not-really-saved"?) --- but if we are NOW WITHOUT His discipline then we are not sons but illegitimate (any way that can be "still saved"?).

Verse 9, "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE"

How is that not presenting "continue in salvation", as a constant choice?

What are your thoughts when you read verse 25?

PS -- "metochos" partakers/partners occurs four times; Heb3:1 (in a heavenly calling), 3:14 (in Christ IF we hold fast ...firm until the end), 6:4 (those who PARTNERED with the Spirit but now have fallen away!), and here in Heb12:8 (in His discipline). All four times it really means "saved". Doesn't it?

 

[Gadgetere]

I don't know if it's the worst, I think telling people that they can't trust Christ for salvation and eternal life is worse myself. And as I look over your posts I see a lot of convoluted reasonings, short little snippets of Scripture, no context, and without seriously looking at what those verses are really saying.

I cite precise verses with clear meanings. Meaning no offense, it is easy to say "you ignore the context" or "misquote". But if you perceive that, then you will be able to explain the "correct meaning and context".

Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

And if we don't hold fast, these means we have not become partakers of Christ. This is not a "lose your salvation" passage, this is "how do you know you are saved" passage.

WHAT??? "Do not HARDEN YOUR HEART, take care BRETHREN lest you be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God!"

Marks:

They were never truly saved in the first place; he does NOT REALLY write to "saved brethren" (he's writing to those among the brethren who were never actually saved), they are NOT REALLY falling away because they were never actually there in the first place, if you are TRULY saved then you WILL NOT fall away from God!"​

I see a lot of convoluted reasonings, short little snippets of Scripture, no context, and without seriously looking at what those verses are really saying.

With respect, can you honestly say that Gadget is doing this, and not you?

I think true doctrine can be clearly expressed straight from the Bible.

Apparently not; "brethren" is not really addressing SAVED brethren, "take care lest you be hardened to unbelief" is not really talking to one who ever believed in the first place, "fall-away-from-God" is not really falling away because he was never TRULY there in the FIRST place.

Honest question -- how do you find that credible?

Like the matter of, will disobedience cost you your relationship with God? No. God will discipline His children, and His discipline is always effective. So no. It's simple, simply stated, and comes straight from the Bible.

"Shall we not much rather CONTINUE in submission to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE? Much less shall we escape who turn away from God!"
​

But you perceive continuing-or-not, is not a choice; and we cannot turn-away-from-God.

Do you really not see that the doctrine is using over and over a large, "NOT REALLY" stamp? So many verses, in context, and we stamp them "NOT REALLY NOT REALLY NOT REALLY". I think "yes really" or God would not have inspired them.

Hoping to challenge you to actually engage Scripture, in brotherly love, not to insult or injure you...

 

[Gadgetere]

Matthew 13:20-21 KJV
20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

"Endure for a while" -- those in Matt3:20-21 (Mk4:16-17, Lk8:13) -- they BELIEVE JOYFULLY! What would ever convince us "they were never saved"?

Catch 22:

"If a person ever falls away from the faith, then he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place!"​

Unless we apply an external doctrine (the Catch-22!), there is absolutely no reason to think those in Matt3:20-21 and Lk8:13 were "never-saved"!

"Brethren, if any among you wander away from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered many sins." James5:19-20​

To continue in OSAS, we'll just rewrite Scripture:

"Brethren, if any unsaved lurking among you-saved wander away from the truth (no, actually, they were never THERE in the FIRST place, they wander away from a FALSE/PROFESSING UNSAVED position but NOT wander-away-from-the-truth) and another leads him back (no he cannot come back to where he never was, James ACTUALLY meant leads him there in the first place!), let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered many sins." James5:19-20​

I don't think it's wise to rewrite Scripture to fit our doctrines; does anyone else?

1 John 2:19 KJV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Already answered; those in 1Jn2:19 were unsaved WHEN they left, but they could have been saved YESTERDAY. 2Jn1:7-9 warns against "going too far" (going out from us!) because of deceivers, and ceasing to abide in salvation!

And further down in 1Jn2, verses 26-28, we are warned to abide in Jesus so as not to perish when He returns!

BTW, what do you think deceivers are thinking? Are they stupid, they want us to have less heavenly crowns in our eternity? You don't think 1Tim4:1 is serious? (Or Rev3:11? Or 2Cor11:3? Or many others?)

And as I look over your posts I see a lot of convoluted reasonings, short little snippets of Scripture, no context, and without seriously looking at what those verses are really saying.

Sigh.

 

[Gadgetere]

To continue in OSAS, we'll just rewrite Scripture:

"Brethren, if any unsaved lurking among you-saved wander away from the truth (no, actually, they were never THERE in the FIRST place, they wander away from a FALSE/PROFESSING UNSAVED position but NOT wander-away-from-the-truth) and another leads him back (no he cannot come back to where he never was, James ACTUALLY meant leads him there in the first place!), let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered many sins." James5:19-20​

​

James warns us in ch1 to beware of "being tempted by our own lusts; and lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death -- do not be deceived, beloved brethren!"

Is he talking to UNSAVED beloved brethren? Is it NOT REALLY thanatos-death-and-Hell? Or somehow is he warning the never-were-truly-saved not to continue IN their lusts and sins?

What did James mean?

 

[Gadgetere]

2 Peter 2:9-12 KJV
9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

He's speaking concerning the unsaved.

Yes; but you broke context. Those "false-never-cease-from-sin brutes, entice the TRULY ESCAPED back INTO sin!" Verse 18!

What part of Christianity permits the idea of "escaping sins WITHOUT salvation in Jesus"? If we could do that, why would we need Jesus dying on the Cross?

Romans 8:5-9 KJV
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

They set their own minds; and not just before salvation, but after...

 

[Gadgetere]

I really do not want to explain myself again and again. I thought I made myself clear already.

No, you haven't -- that is, you have not aligned your thoughs with what Peter actually wrote.

In short read 2 Peter Chapter 21b again. This person did not trust the Christ via his/her knowledge of the gospel. Peter was really accusing false teachers in swaying their people away from BELIEVING in the gospel, who already had full knowledge of it. I cannot make my point any clearer that this. Either you understand it and agree or do not agree, or you do not understand it and do not agree.

To espouse that "they-were-never-truly-saved" (had not actually STARTED believing), is to claim we can "escape defilements/sin apart from Jesus." And Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing."

And Rom8:3 says, "What the flesh could not do, weak as it was, God did, sending the Son in the flesh, He condemned sin in the flesh."

So it's not credible to promote a position "they were strong enough to escape defilements without help from Jesus"; and if they were never truly saved, their last state would not be worse than "TURNING-AWAY" (which uses "epistrepho", true spiritual turning; if they had not yet actually believed, they could not epistrepho-turn-away-from-it).

Please read the next chapter, especially 3:17 --- what does it mean to you?

2 Peter 2:21
KJV

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
What part of turning away from the holy commandment delivered to them with the knowledge of it do you not understand?

They knew the way of righteousness (and the epignosis of the Lord within the message) (but only head-knowledge, not saving knowledge -- right?) and still turned away (not trusting in faith) for the gospel that was delivered to them, influenced by false teachers.....this was Peter's main point here. He hated the false teachers that would snatch a person ready to be saved....

Right. They ESCAPED defilements WITHOUT salvation in Jesus, which Scripture says we cannot do. But we rewrite "escaped" into "not really", and "having KNOWN the holy commandment ...then TURNED AWAY FROM it" becomes "oh they had head-knowledge but not spiritual-knowledge" and "they did NOT REALLY turn away from it, they turned away from ALMOST believing!"

Just as we read Matt23:13-15 where "ARE ENTERING", becomes "not REALLY entering they were only STARTING to enter". And we do not realize we're stamping Scriptural facts with "NOT REALLY".

..let it be then....and move on

Anyone can do that -- "move on, and the verses remain unanswered"...

 

[Gadgetere]

In short read 2 Peter Chapter 21b again. This person did not trust the Christ via his/her knowledge of the gospel. Peter was really accusing false teachers in swaying there people away from BELIEVING in the gospel, who already had full knowledge of it.

Exactly.

No, "epignosis" conveys experiential knowledge here, as it does in ch1. In verses 20-22 "epiginosko" means the same, experiential. The same words cannot change meanings especially between two chapters. (And ch3 verse 17 is another "do-not-be-deceive-away-from-Jesus".)

Chapter 1 warns "make your calling and election steadfast (don't be like the guy who WAS saved/purified but now LACKS saved qualities) -- in this way the gates of Heaven will BE provided (and you will not stumble/ptaio/become-wretched!)".

The whole letter is OSNAS...

 

[Gadgetere]

This same tenor is shown,

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37) For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

This shows two groups, thse who draw back unto perdition, and those that believe to salvation.

No, it does not -- it is a positive affirmation in the face of "don't-fall-admonition". It's exactly the same as Heb6:9, "brethren, we are convince of better things for you, though we speak like this". Speak like what? Speak of FALLING FROM SALVATION.

Hebrews 6:9 KJV
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Do you argue that those in Heb6:4-5 were "never-saved"? Photizo-enlightened, tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come (exact same word in Heb2:9 "Jesus TASTED death" -- Jesus really died, but here you impose NOT-REALLY?) --- and were made METOCHOS-PARTAKERS/PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit (metochos is saved, in Heb3:1, in Heb3:14, in Heb12:8, but here it's NOT REALLY saved/partnered-with-the-Spirit? Exactly where is the Spirit in this verse?)

And FALLING AWAY -- statement of fact. Do we stamp it "not really"?

 

[Gadgetere]

Where are you getting this definition?

You are speaking of epignosis, is that right?

Tomorrow if you like we'll look up Robertson's commentary on the passage, and on "epignosis" and "epiginosko".

 

[Gadgetere]

That's not what the passage says. Did you become confused?

Hebrews 12:5-8 KJV
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If we endure -- present tense. BUT if we are without -- present tense. Whereof all are partakers -- PAST TENSE.

If you are a son, you will be chastised. If you are not chastised, it's NOT because you don't submit to it, the reason is because you are not His son.

Really? Why did you omit verses 9, and 25?

 

[JohnPaul]

OSAS.

Its better not to give opinions on this term.... so, let me show you what it actually means and why.

First, lets see what the Devil has done..
Because, if we can see this, then we can escape the corrupted idea that is used by the deceived to wrongly define this term :OSAS.

See, the issue is not the term OSAS.......its with the people who are deceived into the wrong idea, regarding its actual and true meaning.

Now Think !

Who saved you?
What saved you?
How are you saved?
How are you kept saved?

There is only one answer to these questions, and the answer is.....The Blood of Jesus.
ITs the Blood of Jesus that God uses to redeem you.
Its the Blood of Jesus that takes care of all your sin, including tomorrows works of the flesh that you'll commit.
Its ONLY the Blood of Jesus that IS the reason that God will take you and keep you.
Its the spiritual and literal application of the Blood of Jesus that IS the ONLY reason you'll end up in heaven, or not.

So, how are you saved? ???
You are saved BY the Blood of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit.
"Jesus having offered his BLOOD, once, entered into the Holy Place".
This same God manifested in the flesh Jesus, who has shed his Blood, is now "making intercession" for you in heaven, if you are born again.
Jesus's BLOOD is your eternal pardon and your eternal intercession.
The BLood of Jesus that was shed 2000+ yrs ago, is saving you TOMORROW and next year.
"What can wash away my SIN". A.) Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.

Before you were born again....What was keeping you from being accepted by God?
A.) your SIN.

Q.) What has paid for all your sin? A.) The Blood of Jesus.

Final analysis,= you are saved by the Blood, keep saved by the Blood, and its the Blood Atonement that is your Salvation.

Jesus said......this is my BODY i give for you....And at some point you'll get a new one that is Just like His Eternal Body.
Jesus said...This is my blood that is shed for you....And that BLOOD is WHY you'll get a new body. That BLood is why you belong to God if you are born again.
That BLOOD is why you are KEPT by God if you are born again.
A.) No other reason.

Commandments are not your salvation.
The cult of mary is not your salvation.
THe baptist, methodist, assembly of God, or your church membership is not why God will take you and keep you.
Being dunked or sprinkled in or by the city water supply is NOT your salvation.
What is your Salvation?
A.) THE BLOOD OF JESUS.
Without the shedding of God's Blood, (Jesus) there IS NO Salvation.

So, how many times is this Blood applied to you?
It's applied to you once. = When you are born again.
You are "new birthed" BY this Blood, through the Holy Spirit.
How many times?
A.) ONCE.
So, how many times are you saved? = ONCE.
You are saved exactly as many times as you are born again.
You are born again, ONCE.

Now, how does the devil try to confuse this reality.??
Well, what he did, was.....what he does is.......he created the lie that the Grace of God, is being taught as a lie, if God is being given all the Credit for Salvation.
Let me try that one again, as i can hear the brain cells spinning in the distance..

The devil's Gospel is = anti- saved - once.
The devil's Gospel is = anti- God did it, and you get it for free.
the devil's Gospel is anti- ....= anything that does not allow you to try to keep yourself saved by yourself, by your works, by your water, by your LIST.

Understand?

So, God's Grace, is anti- what Satan teaches through his deceived as salvation.
The devil's gospel is..... "god started it, but you finish it".
The devil's gospel is... "keep yourself saved by self effort".

So, that is exactly the opposite of God's salvation.

Now look at this term. OSAS.

OSAS, literally mean, once you are born again, you are always born again.
That's what it mean's literally.

ONCE Jesus saved you with his Blood, you are kept saved always BY the same Blood.

See how OSAS is teaching that Salvation is all of God, based only on Jesus and His Blood, and has nothing to do with the devil's gospel of "self saving" and "keeping yourself saved" ???

OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".

The devil disputes this, and his deceived dispute this.... because he bases his deceived idea of salvation on you trying to keep your salvation, or you trying to earn it. And that is what the devil's deceived teach.

Whereas God's salvation is always, a "GIFT". "The Gift of Salvation".. "The GIFT of Righteousness".
"As many as Received Jesus.....God GAVE GAVE GAVE".
"For God so loved the world that He GAVE GAVE GAVE".
THAT is Salvation.
its GOD GIVING IT.
THAT IS OSAS.

Now finally...

What the devil has his people do, is confront God's Grace, challenge it, dispute it, and mock it...... and try to subvert it with the idea that God's Grace, when taught as a GIFT, is..."License to sin, or Cheap Grace, or easy believism".
That's the Devil's lie, and his liars are all over forums, all over pulpits, and all over the world.
They are "fallen from Grace" and they are enemies of the Cross.
So.....we see the error of the deception.....or as Paul and Jude taught...These liars, these devil deceived, try to replace the Grace and "Gift of God", with the idea that this Gift is a "license to sin", if you teach it correctly....which is to teach that God's Salvation is all of God, given as a gift, and God will keep you, by His power, and His Grace, once you are born again.

That's how the devil views it, and that is how his deceived will also teach it.
They will always teach that Grace is "License to sin", that Salvation is all about you doing something, vs, God having done something for you, as a GIFT.
And this GIFT, is OSAS.
Its, once you are born again, you are always born again.

I don't consider myself Born Again, because I've always believed in Christ, and though I was baptized Catholic and raised Catholic, I choose not to go by any denomination,so by my belief and understanding I've always been save, so there is no need for me to be Born Again.

And while the Catholic Church has its many errors such as Idolatry, It is the Catholic Church that taught me about Christ, so for that I am grateful for the Catholic Church, but God gave me wisdom and I saw the wrong in what the Catholic Church does so I chose to just label myself Christian and need not listen to man but God.

 

[APAK]

So it's not credible to promote a position "they were strong enough to escape defilements without help from Jesus"; and if they were never truly saved, their last state would not be worse than "TURNING-AWAY" (which uses "epistrepho", true spiritual turning; if they had not yet actually believed, they could not epistrepho-turn-away-from-it).

Look, you do not deserve anymore of my time because of this very deceptive, untruthful and childish response.

I'm not here to fight with you and respond to your twisted words that you generated, not I. Do not even attempt to place YOUR thoughts and YOUR words into my writings again. They are yours alone and claim them as such. You sound so desperate and immature in your failed cause here.

I never once thought or said "they were strong enough to escape defilements without help from Jesus";" You imposed your own primitive understanding and stamp on it (verse 18b).

YOU make this up for public consumption to satisfy your own confused mind to what part of verse 18b means to you, and in an attempt to ridicule me for it.

I'm done with you, and deservingly so.

..happy trails getting to the truth
[/QUOTE]

 

[marks]

"Now we are the sons of God ...we shall be like Him". Will you agree that we are "partners in Christ", and "partners in a heavenly calling"?

Have you responded to Heb3:12-14? "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another while it is still called 'today', lest anyone be hardened by deceitful sin. For we are partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

How can we make that verse fit "OSAS"? Is he talking to unsaved brethren (like James in 1:13-16 is talking to unsaved BELOVED brethren)? Verse 3:8 says "do not harden your heart (like the Israelites did in the wilderness)". Can we just stamp this all with, "NOT REALLY" (we can not really harden ourselves to falling away from God)?

How do you think 1Jn3:1-3 harmonizes with Heb3:12-14, and Lk15:11-32? What are they trying to teach us?

You did it again.

 

[marks]

Not at all; we are discussing what the command of God is in the first place. Do you hold to "limited atonement" (Jesus did not die for all, but only for the few predestined -- a facet of Calvinism)? I perceive atonement is unlimited.

How are we enrolled in salvation? Under "Limited Atonement", it's not really a choice. (There is a sub-doctrine called "Compatibilism" that seeks to connect free will with sovereign determinism; but it fails.) If we have the freedom to choose Him or sin (and what else can passages like Jn3:18-21 mean), then why don't we have the same freedom tomorrow, or the next day?

I'm not talking about limited atonement.

You have a real allergy to my posts.

I'm talking about God's seal of ownership of you, ". . . the Holy Spirit, by which you are sealed unto the day of redemption". God declares His ownership of His children by His Holy Spirit Who is in them. And that this seal is to show His ownership until He comes to claim the purchased possession.

My question to you is this. Can you steal from God that which He owns? Your very self? My answer is simply, no, you cannot. What God owns, and has sealed as owned by Him, toward the intent to redeem that which He owns, take possession of, that's Him, not us, and we aren't other gods that can successfully compete against the one True God.

Let's not deflect to something else. Let's look at this.

This question. Are you more powerful than God?

Much love!

 

[marks]

"TURNING-AWAY" (which uses "epistrepho", true spiritual turning; if they had not yet actually believed, they could not epistrepho-turn-away-from-it).

You seem to put a much different meaning to epi than is supported. I noticed you did on another word also.

After reading your posts, and how you've responded/non-responded, well, I've posted some short posts, and I invite you to respond, should you want to, with short posts that directly address what I've written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

2Cor5:19-20 states that God was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself; therefore, ...BE reconciled to God!" That sound like a "one-time-event", "done-deal"? No; it fits all of the warnings to "not be moved away from Jesus", doesn't it?

Romans speaks of our being reconciled by Jesus, and also of us receiving that reconciliation. And then we are reconciled to God, and have received that reconciliation.

Here's another of those really simple questions. Do you believe we are completely or partially reconciled to God?

And was our reconciliation based in What Jesus Did, or What We Do?

OK, that's 2.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What is "saved"? In Matt25 Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. What's the difference? What do the sheep have, that the goats don't? Jesus remarks on things they do -- but we know salvation is NOT what we do (Eph2:8, Rom11:6, Titus 3:5, Greek "ergon" deeds-we-do). What do the sheep have?

This tells me that you and I have competely different understandings of what salvation is.

I point to Romans 4-6 as perhaps the most detailed teaching.

Much love!