OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Gadgetere]

1Cor9:24-27
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
They (run) to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.​

Run so as to receive -- what? An imperishable wreath? Stephanos aphthartos -- see James1:12, stephanos-zoe crown of life.

Paul worries that after he has preached to others, he himself might be disqualified? "Adokimos" disqualified, unapproved, castaway. Same word in 2Cor13:5, "test yourselves -- Christ is in you unless you fail-the-test" (are unapproved/castaway).

James1:12, if we pass the test (dokimos are approved!), THEN we receive the crown of life. Same word as in 2Tim2:15, "be diligent to present yourself adokimos-approved before God".

Question -- in 1Cor9:27, does Paul consider his OWN position "fallible"? How can the answer be "no"? If we are once saved and then it's a done deal, why are we admonished to race so as to win? What does "win" mean, and what does "lose" mean?

In Heb12:1-2, we "run with endurance the race set before us, and lay aside every encumbrance and sin that so easily entangles us." What does "entangle" mean? What are we racing for? Why does verse 25 say, "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God?" Is "turning-away-from-God" the same as losing the race? (Why not?) What is the message?

Do passages like these permit any continuing of OSAS?

 

[Gadgetere]

Stephanos aphthartos -- see James1:12, stephanos-zoe crown of life.​

Conversely, Rev3:11 warns us "not to let anyone steal our crown". What crown is that in Rev3:11? The context of 3:11, is "he-who-overcomes".

HE WHO overcomes I will clothe in white, and I will not blot from My Book of Life. 3:5.

HE WHO overcomes I will make a pillar in My temple. 3:12

HE WHO overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne. 3:21

Any way that "not-overcoming" is impossible? Any way that "not-overcoming", would be to "let-someone-steal-our-crown"? Can we be blotted, or not?

What's the answer?

 

[Taken]

Gadgeteer -

* Know them by their fruit?
Applies to men about men. General guesswork, for men of all walks of life, ALLOW certain things to be SEEN, and certain other things to be HIDDEN, secret.
(We are neither saving men, or glorifying men for their works, so IF we SEE their good works (fruits) and learn from it, good.) We are not responsible for what they DO in Secret, and have no need to judge what we do not Know. If their secrets are egregious, and exposed in truth...it is the individuals choice to keep their association, or not.
God knows their heart, we guess by what we "SEE".

Practice SIN? Define SIN, and APPLICABLE to WHOM?
Under the Mosaic LAW...SIN is any violation of any law. <--- doesn't apply to me.
Under Gods grace of Offering a new better testament...first to the Tribes, then all Gentiles. <--- that Offering applied to me.
WHAT exactly did this OFFER OFFER and HOW TO RECEIVE, require OF ME?
*....OFFER...the Lord God Almighty "WITH" the person ONCE and FOREVER....BY HIS POWER entering...."IN" the person.
WHAT person? ANY heartful believing, willing, bodily alive CONFESSING person.
*.....HOW to receive;
* ....A Heartful CONFESSION of BELIEF IN the Heavenly God Almighty and the One this God Sent; Jesus.

CAN I THEREAFTER....EVER AGAIN..."NOT BELIEVE IN the HEAVENLY GOD ALMIGHTY, or the ONE He Sent; Jesus....?" NO.
1 John 3:9
.... PRACTICE SIN...NO. My SIN WAS Against God...I can NEVER AGAIN SIN...
(NOT to be confused, with what some FALSELY preach...that such a person IS "SINLESS". <--- false claim.)
Living earthly men are NOT made "SINLESS", they are MADE...FORGIVEN (past tense) Sinners and their SIN covered, no longer punishable or remembered by God.).

* No unsaved "brethren"?...
Agree and Disagree.
Tribal ISRAEL "ARE" brethren by race....(whether or not believers, in God, in Christ)...

People IN Christ (regardless of Tribal or Gentile)....ARE united "brethren" IN Christ.

God gave us the ability of freewill /choice.
God gave us Offerings, and OPTIONS to freely choose, His Offerings, or not.
* Who made the choice to be "saved" ?
Moreso "WHAT"... being the thoughts of an individuals "Natural spirit" in his Heart (rather than mind).
* SO...."confessing belief before others, then later, "changed their mind" and Then deny God/Christ.
....EXACTLY...they made their "confession" of belief...(according to their MINDS thoughts, not their natural spirits thoughts in their Hearts)....THEY FOOLED MEN....THEY DID NOT FOOL GOD. No they were NOT saved or quickened...

SALVATION and QUICKENING has Multiple WORKS of God accomplished WITHIN the man....IT is a SERIOUS Transformation of a man....Men are warned TO BE SURE BEFORE Making a YES commitment to God....(less you be found a LIAR to God, and your consequences WORSE, then if you had heard and rejected Him).
It is not some flippant say YES, TO GOD, before men, while your heart full well knows, it is NOT TRUE...dastardly consequences...

* Who KNEW what our choice would BE, BEFORE WE KNEW? God.

* Warnings...?
To ENDURE...REMAIN STEADFAST (to the end of their physical bodily life.)
Absolutely.... WARNING that APPLIES TO "WHO?"

^^^ TO ALL MEN, "WITH" God..."WITH" God and JESUS.... but not "IN" Christ. (Gave a lengthy post about with temporarily and with permanently applies to one IN Christ.

IF...you pay close attention, to what men say, IS a SIN, or accuse others of SIN....IS mans behavior against man.
It's a ...twisted teaching....of claiming to NOT be under the Law....but yet....USING the law to make claims of sin against men....and then want men to ADMIT and CONFESS their SIN, and ASK men to forgive them of SIN.

Much of the NT is JEWISH Apostles teaching....JEWS under the law, a NEW teaching, and while they (the Jews) were learning, they were STILL practicing their 4,000 year old Laws and traditions. (Transition was NOT instant...even for the Apostles).

* I am "IN" Christ, which means, forever, I am WITH my Lord God and my Lord God is forever WITH me.....
* I sin NO MORE.
* Effected solely BY Gods Power...
* NOT by my effort of enduring...or my effort of being steadfast for the remainder of my physical life.
* NOT by me repeatedly asking Gods forgiveness that He has already forgiven me...
* NOT by me DOING one iota of works TO receive or KEEP my Salvation.
(Not to be confused with my ABILITY to do works to Glorify God, and have no need to LIST such works or get approval or accolades from men.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Curtis]

There’s literally a books worth of scripture refuting unconditional eternal security.

Jesus Himself said some believe only for a while, then fall away.

Hebrews 3 warns against the brethren hardening their hearts due to the deceitfulness of sin and DEPARTING FROM the living God.

Jesus taught that the prodigal son was dead when he was out in the world sinning, and became alive again when he returned in repentance.

OSAS is falsified by Jesus in Revelation when He warns the church at Sardis that they were DEAD, having defiled their white robes - which represent the righteousness of the saints - and warns them to REPENT and be overcomers, or He will blot their names from the book of life.

How were they dead? Obviously not dead physically, anymore than the prodigal son was dead physically.

How then are they dead? In their sins:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There’s no OSAS there. Their sins that defiled their white robes, made them dead in their sins.

Paul warns the saints that living sinfully will make them lose their inheritance in the Kingdom of God:

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Tong2020]

There’s literally a books worth of scripture refuting unconditional eternal security.

Jesus Himself said some believe only for a while, then fall away.

Hebrews 3 warns that against the brethren hardening their hearts due to the deceitfulness of sin and DEPARTING FROM the living God.

Jesus taught that the prodigal son was dead when he was out in the world sinning, and became alive again when he returned in repentance.

OSAS is falsified by Jesus in Revelation when He warns the church at Sardis that they were DEAD, having defiled their white robes - which represent the righteousness of the saints - and warns them to REPENT and be overcomers, or He will blot their names from the book of life.

How were they dead? Obviously not dead physically, anymore than the prodigal son was dead physically.

How then are they dead? In their sins:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There’s no OSAS there. Their sins that defiled their white robes, made them dead in their sins.

Paul warns the saints that living sinfully will make them lose their inheritance in the Kingdom of God:

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Granting, for the sake of argument, the Christian, while is saved, has no assurance from Jesus Christ that he cannot be unsaved, how do you answer the questions:

1. How will he be unsaved?
2. If he be unsaved, can he be saved again?
3. If he be unsaved and can be saved again, how can he be saved again?


4. In #1, was the work Christ for him been wasted? Had Christ failed to keep him?

5. in #3, since this is a getting save matter yet again, how is the work of Jesus part of this? Is Jesus part of this salvation again? If so, how is he saved by Jesus?

Tong
R4623

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Thank you.

<<<What's your verse to support that?>>>

Support what? That a nominal Christian would answer that in the affirmative? I don’t think a verse is necessary to support this to be true. You will understand why after I address your question as to what a nominal Christian is.

<<<Can a "non-Christian", be righteous?>>>

If being righteous, you mean, the doing of works that are held as righteous works, such as helping the needy, and other so called charitable acts, the answer would be yes. But if you mean, being righteous in the sight of God, my answer would be a no.

Scripture asserts some absolutes. Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good. Therefore you will know them by their fruit." (Matt7:16-18)

He also said, "He who is not with Me is against Me; he that does not gather, scatters." (Matt12:30)

So a nominal Christian would be the same as a carnal Christian, they profess to believe but practice sin. Agree?

Not exactly. A carnal Christian may be a true Christian, but still as babes. They may be thought of by others as nominal Christians because of that. But that does not make them to be one.

A nominal Christian is one who is said to be a Christian (Believer in Christ), but only in name. Meaning, he isn’t a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus.

Where do "works" fit into this? We know we are not saved by works (Eph2:8, Rm11:6, Titus3:5, "ergon something-we-do"); but good works inescapably accompany the saved.

Why is that?

It cuts to the essence of Christianity. To be saved, is to begin an indwelt fellowship with the real persons of Jesus, and the Spirit; and we fellowship with the Father. In a real sense Jesus does our good deeds through us --- "For it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure." (Philip2:13) We walk in good works which He prepared beforehand (Eph2:9). We struggle to understand the balance between our being imperfect and occasionally falling back into sin, and the question "can we sin enough to become unsaved?" Salvation would become forfeit if sin becomes repeating; because "Christ-in-you" (indwelling presence!) is not compatible with "walking-in-sin".

Per Scripture, it is not credible to contend that anyone who walks in sin NOW, was never REALLY saved in the FIRST place. In the whole letter of Galatians it describes someone who "was begun in the Spirit, obeying the truth, running well, KNOWN by God" -- that cannot be "unsaved". But such a one turning back to Law, to 'weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again, ending in the FLESH rather than the Spirit", he is plainly said to be "severed from Christ and fallen from grace"! (3:3, 5:7, 4:9, 5:4!) It's impossible to perceive him as "never-was-truly-saved", equally impossible that he "never-actually-fell". The only thing left to try to hang onto OSAS, is to attempt, "It's not real, it's hyperbole, fatherly-advice, it's effective means by which God KEEPS us saved but can't really HAPPEN." And that's not credible either; it's written as real possibility.

It's the same in Hebrews, especially 3:12-14 -- there is no such thing as unsaved brethren, and it's a sincere real warning not to "become deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God". Where is the wiggle-room? Where is it ambiguous?

In a moment I'd like to make a post on 2Cor9...

<<<Where do "works" fit into this?>>>

Nowhere before the point in time of one’s salvation. Only after one is created anew by God in Christ Jesus, do works enter the picture. That is after one had already been saved, even created anew, so as then no longer is of the former creation he was in Adam, but a new creature in Christ.

And it is either one had been created anew or not.

The question really is, could one who had been created anew by God in Christ Jesus, now a new creature in Christ, undo what God had done for him and to him? If some believes he can, how will he do that, if at all he can? What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?

The word “nominal” is not found in scriptures. But that is not to mean that there are no such nominal Christians, that is, Christians only in name.

So such a person is not saved. No way to tell if he ever was; see 1Jn2:19 "they went out from us because they were not of us" -- but they could have BEEN "of us", even yesterday! There's nothing in the words to disallow that. (And 2Jn1:7-9 warns people to "abide in the teachings so as to not go too far [go out from us!], and cease having God"!)

<<<So such a person is not saved.>>>
Yes, he is not saved unto eternal life. Though he is sort of saved in some other sense.

<<<No way to tell if he ever was;>>>

Yes. For we know not what’s in the heart of man or what is inside of a man. Only God knows. But that is not the issue in this subject. Rather, it is defining what a nominal Christian is, that is, he is one who is not a true believer, but one who is a Christian in name only. As such, he is one who is not saved.

Tong
R4624

 

[Curtis]

Granting, for the sake of argument, the Christian, while is saved, has no assurance from Jesus Christ that he cannot be unsaved, how do you answer the questions:

1. How will he be unsaved?
2. If he be unsaved, can he be saved again?
3. If he be unsaved and can be saved again, how can he be saved again?


4. In #1, was the work Christ for him been wasted? Had Christ failed to keep him?

5. in #3, since this is a getting save matter yet again, how is the work of Jesus part of this? Is Jesus part of this salvation again? If so, how is he saved by Jesus?

Tong
R4623

How to be unsaved is found in every warning by Paul to the brethren that lining sinfully will keep them from heaven.

Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living a lifestyle stealing, of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that your. BRETHREN.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES (such as those who DEFRAUD their brethren, verse 8) nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Notice that in verse 11 Paul says that some of brethren used to do those things but stopped after salvation, but yet some of the other brethren were sinning by stealing from the others (by defrauding them), hence Paul’s warning.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

How to be a son of God, die in your sin, and become alive again, and thus be saved again, is found in the prodigal son.

In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, the son represents believers.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and then resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who WERE DEAD in *trespasses and sins*


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.

Christians are called to a life of righteousness, such as avoiding sexual sins as part of our sanctification:

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

1Th 4:5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

1Th 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his BROTHER in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly WARNED you.

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.


Our sanctification is to abstain from sexual immorality, verse 3, above.


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


In Galatians 5, Paul lists the works of the flesh, which defines what is meant in Romans 8 about walking after the flesh, instead of after the spirit:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Tong2020]

I think knowing what it means to be a true believer, will somehow address your point there. This is what I take to be a true believer, at least for me.

A true believer/Christian is one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God,

Be careful -- it's very important which direction saving-faith flows. Does God GIVE saving-faith to a few favorites (Reformed Theology), as some misunderstand Rom12:3 to mean? Or does God receive faith FROM men (Heb11:6) and command men to believe (Acts17:26-31) Whose faith is it? (1Pet1:9!)

Thank you, but there is nothing to worry about.

There is not one kind of faith, but two. One that is of God and the other that is of man. The former being with the power of God, the latter with the power of man.

Let me just say something about the two. The latter is in a few words, is “to see is to believe” and rest on his human abilities. The former is one that comes from and is given by God. It becomes one’s, him to whom it was given.

...which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus.

The most basic question -- when a person receives Jesus as Lord and Savior, who makes the choice?

While it is to the mind of most, the man is him who makes the choice or that it is about making a choice, it is God who works it out in and on the man to freely and willingly make such a choice. But I would even go far as to say that, in the working of that by God, what happens is not really making a choice nor is about making a choice, but is about conversion.

I don’t know if you have the same view as mine regarding the true believer. If not, I am interested to know yours.

Well, what you and I struggle to expose, is what SCRIPTURE says. Your view, and my view, are irrelevant. We begin recognizing that "all Scripture is inspired by God, and suitable for reproof, correction, equipping us for every righteous deed" (2Tim3:16). Without the bases of "Bible-truth", there is no common ground for discussion. Each of us would "do what is right in our own mind..."

Of course. When I say my view or your view, I mean to say is how you understand what scriptures says, as you read and study the word of God

So, let me take you back to my question, but in a rephrased form: do you agree that a true believer is is one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus? If not, can you tell me what a true believer is based on your understanding of scriptures concerning that?

If you will here focus in the part “is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus”, my view would have it, that one who changes his mind about Jesus Christ or in the gospel about Jesus Christ, that was preached by the apostles, which they received and believed, and believe something different, haven’t truly believed after all.

And that's the question -- can one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast? Some Scriptures are translated badly. 2Pet for instance, verse 1:5 "add to your faith" -- as if there's a saved-faith without godly qualities! No, they're not optional! The Greek says "SUPPLY IN your faith!" And verse 10, "make sure ABOUT your calling and election" -- that's not what the Greek says! It blatantly says "make your calling and election steadfast"! He who lacks the non-optional qualities has ...forgotten purification from former sins (he WAS purified/saved, but now is NOT!) -- therefore against that bad-example, be diligent to make your salvation steadfast, (because!) as long as these qualities are yours you will ...not stumble/ptaio/become-wretched, and in THIS way the gates of eternity will be abundantly provided to you (and if you are NOT diligent, they won't be provided at all!)

The argument continues throughout the letter; those who were saved but fall back into defilements are worse than before being saved, chapter 2. And chapter 3 warns us to guard against deceitful men lest we fall from our own steadfastness! Peter is as OSNAS as can get!

I'm sorry I've given you such a barrage of verses, Tong; but what do you think of them? Do you have different understandings?

<<<can one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast?>>>

Steadfast:

adjective
stead·fast
| \ ˈsted-ˌfast , also -fəst \
Collegiate Definition

• 1a: firmly fixed in place :IMMOVABLE
  b: not subject to change
  the steadfast doctrine of original sin — Ellen Glasgow
• 2: firm in belief, determination, or adherence : LOYALher followers have remained steadfast

Please take notice that, I am talking about the faith of one who is a true believer, which faith I said among others, is firm and steadfast. Your question concerning being steadfast is about the person, not the faith, which make it out of focus. So I find the question as missing the point.

​

Tong
R4625

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Granting, for the sake of argument, the Christian, while is saved, has no assurance from Jesus Christ that he cannot be unsaved, how do you answer the questions:

1. How will he be unsaved?
2. If he be unsaved, can he be saved again?
3. If he be unsaved and can be saved again, how can he be saved again?


4. In #1, was the work Christ for him been wasted? Had Christ failed to keep him?

5. in #3, since this is a getting save matter yet again, how is the work of Jesus part of this? Is Jesus part of this salvation again? If so, how is he saved by Jesus?

How to be unsaved is found in every warning by Paul to the brethren that lining sinfully will keep them from heaven.

Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living a lifestyle stealing, of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that your. BRETHREN.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES (such as those who DEFRAUD their brethren, verse 8) nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Notice that in verse 11 Paul says that some of brethren used to do those things but stopped after salvation, but yet some of the other brethren were sinning by stealing from the others (by defrauding them), hence Paul’s warning.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

How to be a son of God, die in your sin, and become alive again, and thus be saved again, is found in the prodigal son.

In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, the son represents believers.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and then resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who WERE DEAD in *trespasses and sins*


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.

Christians are called to a life of righteousness, such as avoiding sexual sins as part of our sanctification:

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

1Th 4:5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

1Th 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his BROTHER in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly WARNED you.

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.


Our sanctification is to abstain from sexual immorality, verse 3, above.


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


In Galatians 5, Paul lists the works of the flesh, which defines what is meant in Romans 8 about walking after the flesh, instead of after the spirit:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

I guess that only covers my first question. How about the rest of my questions? Thanks.

2. If he be unsaved, can he be saved again?
3. If he be unsaved and can be saved again, how can he be saved again?


4. In #1, was the work Christ for him been wasted? Had Christ failed to keep him?

5. in #3, since this is a getting save matter yet again, how is the work of Jesus part of this? Is Jesus part of this salvation again? If so, how is he saved by Jesus?

A separate post in answer to each question would be appreciated. I will then respond on each separate post.

Also, if you would be citing scriptures to support your answer, May I suggest that you give me the best one or two? For it would be quite hard for me to deal with so many. With that, can you tell me, among those you cited in support to your answer of my question #1, what are two you’d say best support your answer?

Thanks.

Tong
R4626

 

[Gadgetere]

Gadgeteer -

* Know them by their fruit?
Applies to men about men. General guesswork, for men of all walks of life, ALLOW certain things to be SEEN, and certain other things to be HIDDEN, secret.
(We are neither saving men, or glorifying men for their works, so IF we SEE their good works (fruits) and learn from it, good.) We are not responsible for what they DO in Secret, and have no need to judge what we do not Know. If their secrets are egregious, and exposed in truth...it is the individuals choice to keep their association, or not.
God knows their heart, we guess by what we "SEE".

Jesus' point is that apart from Him men cannot be righteous. Isaiah says our own righteousness is as filthy rags (the actual Hebrew is far worse).

Practice SIN? Define SIN, and APPLICABLE to WHOM?
Under the Mosaic LAW...SIN is any violation of any law. <--- doesn't apply to me.
Under Gods grace of Offering a new better testament...first to the Tribes, then all Gentiles. <--- that Offering applied to me.
WHAT exactly did this OFFER OFFER and HOW TO RECEIVE, require OF ME?
*....OFFER...the Lord God Almighty "WITH" the person ONCE and FOREVER....BY HIS POWER entering...."IN" the person.
WHAT person? ANY heartful believing, willing, bodily alive CONFESSING person.
*.....HOW to receive;
* ....A Heartful CONFESSION of BELIEF IN the Heavenly God Almighty and the One this God Sent; Jesus.

"Salvation" is considerably more than "belief". Jesus said in Jn17:3, "Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing (Me)." John conspicuously used "ginosko", intimate husband/wife knowledge.

CAN I THEREAFTER....EVER AGAIN..."NOT BELIEVE IN the HEAVENLY GOD ALMIGHTY, or the ONE He Sent; Jesus....?" NO.

Scripture says different. Consider only Heb3 -- first it's written to holy brethren partners in a heavenly calling -- in no sense can we perceive them as "NOT REALLY saved". This is written to truly saved brothers. Second, blatantly painted with clear words, we can be "deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God. Third, the context says we are partners IN Christ, fully conditionally -- "IF we CONTINUE in the faith ...and not be moved away from (Jesus)."

There is no defense, or alternate interpretation.

1 John 3:9
.... PRACTICE SIN...NO. My SIN WAS Against God...I can NEVER AGAIN SIN...
(NOT to be confused, with what some FALSELY preach...that such a person IS "SINLESS". <--- false claim.)
Living earthly men are NOT made "SINLESS", they are MADE...FORGIVEN (past tense) Sinners and their SIN covered, no longer punishable or remembered by God.).

So a person can continue practicing sin and God "paints it over" and ignores it? That conflicts 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, James1:14-16, and many others. What good is a doctrine that requires us to mark out or ignore "God-inspired-verses"?

* No unsaved "brethren"?...
Agree and Disagree.
Tribal ISRAEL "ARE" brethren by race....(whether or not believers, in God, in Christ)...

People IN Christ (regardless of Tribal or Gentile)....ARE united "brethren" IN Christ.

The context of the verse I was asking about, is "saved brothers" who move to unsalvation.

God gave us the ability of freewill /choice.
God gave us Offerings, and OPTIONS to freely choose, His Offerings, or not.
* Who made the choice to be "saved" ?
Moreso "WHAT"... being the thoughts of an individuals "Natural spirit" in his Heart (rather than mind).
* SO...."confessing belief before others, then later, "changed their mind" and Then deny God/Christ.
....EXACTLY...they made their "confession" of belief...(according to their MINDS thoughts, not their natural spirits thoughts in their Hearts)....THEY FOOLED MEN....THEY DID NOT FOOL GOD. No they were NOT saved or quickened...

There is nothing in the verses which permits us to believe they were NEVER saved. We must stop writing words into Scripture.

Some read John10:26-28, "no one NOT EVEN YOURSELVES can separate you from God's love". The caps are written-in, not there. Some read 1Jn2:19 "they were NEVER of us" --- and again the caps "never" just isn't there; the statement fully permits them to have been saved once, even yesterday.

SALVATION and QUICKENING has Multiple WORKS of God accomplished WITHIN the man....IT is a SERIOUS Transformation of a man....Men are warned TO BE SURE BEFORE Making a YES commitment to God....(less you be found a LIAR to God, and your consequences WORSE, then if you had heard and rejected Him).
It is not some flippant say YES, TO GOD, before men, while your heart full well knows, it is NOT TRUE...dastardly consequences...

Be sure of what? Peter says in 2:1:5-11 to make our ELECTION (salvation!) bebaios-steadfast/stable/firm.

* Who KNEW what our choice would BE, BEFORE WE KNEW? God.

* Warnings...?
To ENDURE...REMAIN STEADFAST (to the end of their physical bodily life.)
Absolutely.... WARNING that APPLIES TO "WHO?"

^^^ TO ALL MEN, "WITH" God..."WITH" God and JESUS.... but not "IN" Christ. (Gave a lengthy post about with temporarily and with permanently applies to one IN Christ.

You're writing external ideas into the verses. They are IN CHRIST in Heb3:12-14; it's saved people in 2Pet15-11. They were "saved" in 2Pet2:20-22. It's addressing the saved in 1Tim4:16. I can give you dozens -- how many will convince you?

IF...you pay close attention, to what men say, IS a SIN, or accuse others of SIN....IS mans behavior against man.
It's a ...twisted teaching....of claiming to NOT be under the Law....but yet....USING the law to make claims of sin against men....and then want men to ADMIT and CONFESS their SIN, and ASK men to forgive them of SIN.

Much of the NT is JEWISH Apostles teaching....JEWS under the law, a NEW teaching, and while they (the Jews) were learning, they were STILL practicing their 4,000 year old Laws and traditions. (Transition was NOT instant...even for the Apostles).

* I am "IN" Christ, which means, forever, I am WITH my Lord God and my Lord God is forever WITH me.....
* I sin NO MORE.
* Effected solely BY Gods Power...
* NOT by my effort of enduring...or my effort of being steadfast for the remainder of my physical life.
* NOT by me repeatedly asking Gods forgiveness that He has already forgiven me...
* NOT by me DOING one iota of works TO receive or KEEP my Salvation.
(Not to be confused with my ABILITY to do works to Glorify God, and have no need to LIST such works or get approval or accolades from men.)

I'm sorry, 1Jn3 is clear --- he who practices sin will not have his sin overlooked, he 100% does not know God; only those who practice righteousness are righteous.

May we discuss Jn3:18-21? Those who do evil avoid the light lest their evil deeds be exposed; but those who practice righteousness come to the light that their deeds may be seen as wrought in God.

 

[Gadgetere]

There’s literally a books worth of scripture refuting unconditional eternal security.

I wrote one -- it's at the publisher, I've been delaying at releasing it. It started as a refutation of all three views of OSAS, but grew into a general promotion of Christianity. I am still adding things that I have missed.

The things I add all come with the thought, "How could it be published without that?" I forgot to include TULIP in the Calvinism section. The section on LDS missed Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man". The section on Pre-Trib-Rapture exposes that the leftbehind are righteous, the TAKEN are the wicked (and thrown to vultures, Lk17:37. But I missed Matt13, "at the end of the world He will send forth His angels and gather the wicked out from among the righteous, and the righteous will shine like the sun." On Islam, I had neglected to point out that when the quran says "cursed are those who add gods to God", Muslims think that's what WE do when we say Jesus and the Spirit are God!

Jesus Himself said some believe only for a while, then fall away.

Why do they fall away? Lk8:13 (and Mk4:9) say "because of temptation/persecution/affliction". There is nothing to make us think they were never truly saved at first.

Hebrews 3 warns against the brethren hardening their hearts due to the deceitfulness of sin and DEPARTING FROM the living God.

It's not just "brethren" -- in verse 1 it is "HOLY brethren, PARTNERS in a heavenly calling"! So it doesn't work to try to call them "NEVER-TRULY-SAVED".

Jesus taught that the prodigal son was dead when he was out in the world sinning, and became alive again when he returned in repentance.

100% right -- but some claim "He never stopped being a SON, did he?"

Yes he did! A corpse is no longer a son! Losing and regaining salvation was Jesus' point!

OSAS is falsified by Jesus in Revelation when He warns the church at Sardis that they were DEAD, having defiled their white robes - which represent the righteousness of the saints - and warns them to REPENT and be overcomers, or He will blot their names from the book of life.

How were they dead? Obviously not dead physically, anymore than the prodigal son was dead physically.

How then are they dead? In their sins:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There’s no OSAS there. Their sins that defiled their white robes, made them dead in their sins.

Paul warns the saints that living sinfully will make them lose their inheritance in the Kingdom of God:

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Your post is excellent. But look at what's happening -- predictably, people respond for awhile; but in the face of precise and clear verses they cease responding, and in a few days will be posting elsewhere as if nothing has ever been cited. In my book I talk about "people having invested considerable REPUTE" -- it would be embarrassing after so much time promoting OSAS, to change. I say "both in secular and spiritual arenas, prejudices and preconceptions die hard." Some proponents are even seminary graduates! It is Human Nature to be unwilling to admit being wrong; but you and I are not saviors, we are only messengers. Sometimes behind the scenes our words gnaw on people's hearts, and undeniable Scriptures will in time cease being denied. Meanwhile we are to "speak the truth in love", that we build and not destroy, convict and not injure. For WE would sin if we "destroyed a brother for whom Christ died" (1Cor8:11, Rom14:15) -- verses which could not exist if OSAS was the theme, but no one will engage them either.

Never lose hope, never forget we are but messengers, it is Jesus who convicts and changes those who are open to Him.

 

[Gadgetere]

Granting, for the sake of argument, the Christian, while is saved, has no assurance from Jesus Christ that he cannot be unsaved, how do you answer the questions:

1. How will he be unsaved?

May I reply? James said "we are tempted with enticed and led astray by our own lusts. Lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death -- do not be deceived beloved brethren."

Hebrews3 says we can be deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God. 1Tim4:1 says we can be deceived away from the faith by deceit and doctrines of demons. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17 and others say we can be deceived by worldly men

Goodness, 2Cor11:3 says we're at the SAME risk of being deceived away from Christ, as when satan deceived Eve in the Garden! Why won't people believe the verses?'

2. If he be unsaved, can he be saved again?

Absolutely -- please read Rom11:18-23 and tell what you think? "If they do not continue in unbelief God will graft them in again"?

3. If he be unsaved and can be saved again, how can he be saved again?

James says in the last two verses (5:19-20), if they turn back from the error of their way" --- if they return to Jesus.

What's the difference between "walking-in-sin", and "disbelief in Jesus"? Nothing. They are the same...

4. In #1, was the work Christ for him been wasted? Had Christ failed to keep him?

What do you think about 1Tim3:5 and Gal4:11? "In vain", means "wasted"! How about Philip2:16?

5. in #3, since this is a getting saved matter yet again, how is the work of Jesus part of this? Is Jesus part of this salvation again? If so, how is he saved by Jesus?

I look forward to your thoughts on these verses, especially like Rom11.

"...do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.​

Any way to make these verses not say what they say?

 

[Gadgetere]

Not exactly. A carnal Christian may be a true Christian, but still as babes. They may be thought of by others as nominal Christians because of that. But that does not make them to be one.

There is no such thing as a "carnal" Christian, or a "nominal" one. We either belong to Jesus completely, or not at all. Gal2:20 is not a "hopeful some day ideal", it is central and critical to what Jesus accomplished.

<<<Where do "works" fit into this?>>>

Nowhere before the point in time of one’s salvation. Only after one is created anew by God in Christ Jesus, do works enter the picture. That is after one had already been saved, even created anew, so as then no longer is of the former creation he was in Adam, but a new creature in Christ.

All true; yet, if we cease to do good works and turn back to unrighteousness, we perish. Ezk18:24.

And it is either one had been created anew or not.

The question really is, could one who had been created anew by God in Christ Jesus, now a new creature in Christ, undo what God had done for him and to him? If some believes he can, how will he do that, if at all he can? What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?

Yes. Please see my previous post.

<<<So such a person is not saved.>>>
Yes, he is not saved unto eternal life. Though he is sort of saved in some other sense.

What other sense? There is only one salvation before God in Christ.

<<<No way to tell if he ever was;>>>

Yes. For we know not what’s in the heart of man or what is inside of a man. Only God knows. But that is not the issue in this subject. Rather, it is defining what a nominal Christian is, that is, he is one who is not a true believer, but one who is a Christian in name only. As such, he is one who is not saved.

I meant, that in verses like 1Jn2:19, Lk8:13, there is no cause to contend "they were NEVER saved". Those in 1Jn2:19 could have been saved (even yesterday!), those in Lk8:13 certainly were; only volitional perseverance made the difference.

 

[Gadgetere]

Thank you, but there is nothing to worry about.

There is not one kind of faith, but two. One that is of God and the other that is of man. The former being with the power of God, the latter with the power of man.

Let me just say something about the two. The latter is in a few words, is “to see is to believe” and rest on his human abilities. The former is one that comes from and is given by God. It becomes one’s, him to whom it was given.

Please show me where faith is given to men by God? It's not in Rm12:3, that is a literary device called "Semitic View". (Did God harden Pharaoh's heart, Ex10:1? No; Pharaoh did it himself Ex9:34, 1Sam6:6; the device ascribes to God or others what men do themselves. See 2Cor4:3-4 [the devil veils their eyes lest they believe and be saved], but with 2Cor3:16 [they turn to God and THEN the veil is removed!].)

While it is to the mind of most, the man is him who makes the choice or that it is about making a choice, it is God who works it out in and on the man to freely and willingly make such a choice.

That sounds like the sub-doctrine, "Compatibilism". That seeks to connect God's sovereignty, with man's free will. "Men freely choose, but only according to their nature; if left in sin the ONLY (but freely) choose to disbelieve, if sovereignly regenerated they ONLY (but freely) choose to believe."

A will that can only choose one path, is not free.

But I would even go far as to say that, in the working of that by God, what happens is not really making a choice nor is about making a choice, but is about conversion.


Of course. When I say my view or your view, I mean to say is how you understand what scriptures says, as you read and study the word of God

So, let me take you back to my question, but in a rephrased form: do you agree that a true believer is is one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus? If not, can you tell me what a true believer is based on your understanding of scriptures concerning that?

Actually, no. A "true believer" is one who believes Jesus, RECEIVES the Son and the Spirit, indwelling presence, and begins a lifelong walk with them. What does Col2:6-8 mean to you? Gal2:26?

1Jn5:11-13 says "he who HAS the Son has eternal life" -- Greek is "echo-grasp/possess". He who possess Jesus. What do you think of Jn17:3?

<<<can one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast?>>>

Steadfast:

adjective
stead·fast
| \ ˈsted-ˌfast , also -fəst \
Collegiate Definition

• 1a: firmly fixed in place :IMMOVABLE
  b: not subject to change
  the steadfast doctrine of original sin — Ellen Glasgow
• 2: firm in belief, determination, or adherence : LOYALher followers have remained steadfast

I'm more interested in the Greek "bebaios" -- stable, firm.

Please take notice that, I am talking about the faith of one who is a true believer, which faith I said among others, is firm and steadfast. Your question concerning being steadfast is about the person, not the faith, which make it out of focus. So I find the question as missing the point.

"Faith-to-salvation" comes from the person, it is each person who chooses to be steadfast or not. See 1Tim4:16.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

OSAS is Biblical. Once you have been saved, you literally cannot lose your salvation. Calvin was very clear on this as was paul who wrote like 30 something verses in romans explaining that nothing could take your salvation away.
Also, be warned about listening to catholic thoughts as the WCF explains in chapter 25, part 6 that anything catholic is dangerous.
Section 6.) There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.(1) Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; (but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God.(2)
(1) Col 1:18; Eph 1:22 (2) Mt 23:8-10; 2Th 2:3,4,8,9; Rev 13:6

 

[Taken]

Jesus' point is that apart from Him men cannot be righteous. Isaiah says our own righteousness is as filthy rags (the actual Hebrew is far worse).

My point as well.

"Salvation" is considerably more than "belief". Jesus said in Jn17:3, "Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing (Me)." John conspicuously used "ginosko", intimate husband/wife knowledge.

Don't think Salvation IS Belief.
Moreso, Belief is required to receive Salvation.

Scripture says different. Consider only Heb3 -- first it's written to holy brethren partners in a heavenly calling -- in no sense can we perceive them as "NOT REALLY saved".

Addressed that. We guess, presume. Only the individual and the Lord God knows an individuals Heart's beliefs.

[QUOTE[ This is written to truly saved brothers. Second, blatantly painted with clear words, we can be "deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God. Third, the context says we are partners IN Christ, fully conditionally -- "IF we CONTINUE in the faith ...and not be moved away from (Jesus)." [/QUOTE]

Addressed that. In brief, IF the Power of God is "NOT" IN" a man, he has the posibility of falling away. IF the Power of God "IS" "IN" a man, NO, the man can NEVER fall away.

There is no defense, or alternate interpretation.

There IS, rightly dividing the Word of TRUTH.
Applying Scripture which rightly APPLIES.
NOT APPLIYING Scripture that does NOT Apply.

So a person can continue practicing sin and God "paints it over" and ignores it?

I said no such thing.
Did you NOT pay attention to the word...
THEREAFTER...speaking of Conversion IN Christ?

That conflicts 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, James1:14-16, and many others. What good is a doctrine that requires us to mark out or ignore "God-inspired-verses"?

Do you not comprehend Scripture "IN CONTEXT" ?
*1 Cor 1:2 begins acknowledging those at the church at Cornith....WHO "ARE" sancified.
* 1 Cor 3:3 acknowledges those at the church at Cornith .... WHO "ARE" still in conflict. Hearing the Word, but Walking CARNAL MINDED.

Obviously BOTH DOES NOT APPLY to the same individual.

You are not qualified to decide what in Scripture DOES and DOES NOT APPLY to me.
And if you ARE Sanctified, you should learn what in Scripture DOES and DOES NOT APPLY to you, and WHY.
"Rightly divide the Word of Truth".

The context of the verse I was asking about, is "saved brothers" who move to usalvation.

People are not SAVED and then "UNSAVED".

There is nothing in the verses which permits us to believe they were NEVER saved. We must stop writing words into Scripture.

Comprehension problem?
If a person says they believe and are saved....okay.
If it be discovered they currently say they do not BELIEVE IN GOD....duh!
You seriously think the All knowing God was TRiCKED and Saved their soul?
THEY LIED! And no a person who Openly rejects God IS NOT SAVED....!
IF and WHEN you discover such a TRUTH...
They are a spiritual enemy...be cautious.

Some read John10:26-28, "no one NOT EVEN YOURSELVES can separate you from God's love".

So? Who said anything about God not loving His creations?

The caps are written-in, not there. Some read 1Jn2:19 "they were NEVER of us" --- and again the caps "never" just isn't there; the statement fully permits them to have been saved once, even yesterday.

Off on a tangent.

You're writing external ideas into the verses. They are IN CHRIST in Heb3:12-14; it's saved people in 2Pet15-11. They were "saved" in 2Pet2:20-22. It's addressing the saved in 1Tim4:16. I can give you dozens -- how many will convince you?

You are all over the place...making implications of things I did not say.

I'm sorry, 1Jn3 is clear --- he who practices sin will not have his sin overlooked...

So? You are the one who is making up ....saying..."overlooked sin"....

May we discuss Jn3:18-21? Those who do evil avoid the light lest their evil deeds be exposed; but those who practice righteousness come to the light that their deeds may be seen as wrought in God.

No. Discussion with you is apparent you are without understanding, or ability to rightly Divide the Word of Truth, and expect an explanation from me for things you say, but pretend it is what I said.

 

[Gadgetere]

OSAS is Biblical.

Hi, Lifelong.
All three views of OSAS are opposed by Scripture.

1. "Antinomianism" (Gnosticism) corrupt flesh (fornicating, drunk, carousing, murdering, stealing), but saved spirit. "Backslidden-but-saved".

2. Eternal security -- anyone can be saved, but once "in" too changed to fall, or God dynamically keeps us (sometimes even ending a person's life that his soul survives).

3. Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation (Calvinism, Reformed Theology) At least a half dozen views, but basically God creates a few to be saved (irresistibly!) and He creates ordains and decrees most to be sinful and to perish. God is therefore either directly or indirectly causal to their sin.

Once you have been saved, you literally cannot lose your salvation.

Let's see you fit that with Heb3:12-14 -- will you?

There are a lot of posts here replete with precise Scriptures ruining "cannot-fall-from-salvation". See just a couple posts back, Rom11:18-23.

It's easy to make a "hit-and-run-post" claiming that "no truly saved person can become unsaved", but very, very difficult to interact with the verses (especially ones that have been quoted here) and keep that view.

Calvin was very clear on this as was paul who wrote like 30 something verses in romans explaining that nothing could take your salvation away.

No, Paul did not; please cite even one.

Calvin was inspired by Augustine, who broke from early church fathers. Please see a previous post where I quote Chrysostom -- his view was typical, and plainly fit OSNAS. Is it wise to grab as "fact" sudden new views that come long after the originals lived and wrote?

Also, be warned about listening to catholic thoughts as the WCF explains in chapter 25, part 6 that anything catholic is dangerous.

Do you think any Catholics are saved? I promise you they are. They do get a lot wrong, "praying to saints" (as intercessors and not mediators, wrong but not condemnable), confessing to priests (wrong but not condemnable), doing penance (which as I understand it does NOT pay for sins but is intended to encourage a repentant heart -- also not condemnable). Some Catholics say "salvation by faith, works and the sacraments" -- that is condemnable, it opposes what Jesus did. But go post on the Catholic message board and you will find some real, spirit-filled, brothers.

One of them told me, "You're right about Romans6, 7, and 8 being a 'triplet', the chapters cannot be separated; but chapters 9, 10 and 11 are another 'triplet' and also cannot be separated." He was right.

Another told me, "You know, Rom9 opposes a kind of 'predestination'; Paul was saying it wasn't enough to be Abraham's descendants, that does not destine you for salvation; he who believes and receives Jesus is saved and it doesn't matter the lineage." That was right too.

Those on that board to my experience to not raise Mary to goddess, they know what salvation is. Yes you can get errant doctrine in any group -- that's the benefit of knowing what Scripture really says.

With sincere respect and brotherly love, what you just posted is more "Scripturally errant' than anything I've seen on the Catholic message board. If that makes you angry, then please get angry enough to answer the cited verses, and explain why they do not ruin "OSAS".

Speaking of "ruin" -- what do you think of 1Cor8:11 and Rom14:15? They will never fit "OSAS", will they?

Section 6.) There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.(1) Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; (but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God.(2)

That's correct; there is no Biblical support of a Pope.

Jesus said, "You are PETER (little stone!), and upon this ROCK (petra-bedrock, Jesus Himself!) I will build My church." No other foundation can be laid.

(1) Col 1:18; Eph 1:22 (2) Mt 23:8-10; 2Th 2:3,4,8,9; Rev 13:6

Are you willing to discuss verses? I've asked you about several -- what are your thoughts?

 

[Taken]

May I reply? James said "we are tempted with enticed and led astray by our own lusts. Lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death -- do not be deceived beloved brethren."

Hebrews3 says we can be deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God. 1Tim4:1 says we can be deceived away from the faith by deceit and doctrines of demons. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17 and others say we can be deceived by worldly men

Goodness, 2Cor11:3 says we're at the SAME risk of being deceived away from Christ, as when satan deceived Eve in the Garden! Why won't people believe the verses?'

Absolutely -- please read Rom11:18-23 and tell what you think? "If they do not continue in unbelief God will graft them in again"?

James says in the last two verses (5:19-20), if they turn back from the error of their way" --- if they return to Jesus.

What's the difference between "walking-in-sin", and "disbelief in Jesus"? Nothing. They are the same...

What do you think about 1Tim3:5 and Gal4:11? "In vain", means "wasted"! How about Philip2:16?

I look forward to your thoughts on these verses, especially like Rom11.

"...do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.​

Any way to make these verses not say what they say?

No one suggests "changing what Scripture says" .... to imply that is what OSAS believers do is deceptive.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Hi, Lifelong.
All three views of OSAS are opposed by Scripture.

1. "Antinomianism" (Gnosticism) corrupt flesh (fornicating, drunk, carousing, murdering, stealing), but saved spirit. "Backslidden-but-saved".

2. Eternal security -- anyone can be saved, but once "in" too changed to fall, or God dynamically keeps us (sometimes even ending a person's life that his soul survives).

3. Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation (Calvinism, Reformed Theology) At least a half dozen views, but basically God creates a few to be saved (irresistibly!) and He creates ordains and decrees most to be sinful and to perish. God is therefore either directly or indirectly causal to their sin.

Let's see you fit that with Heb3:12-14 -- will you?

There are a lot of posts here replete with precise Scriptures ruining "cannot-fall-from-salvation". See just a couple posts back, Rom11:18-23.

It's easy to make a "hit-and-run-post" claiming that "no truly saved person can become unsaved", but very, very difficult to interact with the verses (especially ones that have been quoted here) and keep that view.
No, Paul did not; please cite even one.

Calvin was inspired by Augustine, who broke from early church fathers. Please see a previous post where I quote Chrysostom -- his view was typical, and plainly fit OSNAS. Is it wise to grab as "fact" sudden new views that come long after the originals lived and wrote?

Do you think any Catholics are saved? I promise you they are. They do get a lot wrong, "praying to saints" (as intercessors and not mediators, wrong but not condemnable), confessing to priests (wrong but not condemnable), doing penance (which as I understand it does NOT pay for sins but is intended to encourage a repentant heart -- also not condemnable). Some Catholics say "salvation by faith, works and the sacraments" -- that is condemnable, it opposes what Jesus did. But go post on the Catholic message board and you will find some real, spirit-filled, brothers.

One of them told me, "You're right about Romans6, 7, and 8 being a 'triplet', the chapters cannot be separated; but chapters 9, 10 and 11 are another 'triplet' and also cannot be separated." He was right.

Another told me, "You know, Rom9 opposes a kind of 'predestination'; Paul was saying it wasn't enough to be Abraham's descendants, that does not destine you for salvation; he who believes and receives Jesus is saved and it doesn't matter the lineage." That was right too.

Those on that board to my experience to not raise Mary to goddess, they know what salvation is. Yes you can get errant doctrine in any group -- that's the benefit of knowing what Scripture really says.

With sincere respect and brotherly love, what you just posted is more "Scripturally errant' than anything I've seen on the Catholic message board. If that makes you angry, then please get angry enough to answer the cited verses, and explain why they do not ruin "OSAS".

Speaking of "ruin" -- what do you think of 1Cor8:11 and Rom14:15? They will never fit "OSAS", will they?

That's correct; there is no Biblical support of a Pope.

Jesus said, "You are PETER (little stone!), and upon this ROCK (petra-bedrock, Jesus Himself!) I will build My church." No other foundation can be laid.


Are you willing to discuss verses? I've asked you about several -- what are your thoughts?

RC Sproul explained it the best.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/can-christian-lose-their-salvation

 

[Taken]

.... what are your thoughts?

You are trying to DEFINE what OSAS means, without Understanding what OSAS means.