OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

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Romans 6:3-12 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We have been killed from out of the line of Adam, and made alive in Christ. We did not do that. God did that.

Who is going to make us dead in Christ, and alive in Adam? God? He's not offering. Us? We don't have that power.

Much love!

 

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is the worst in terms of "complex doctrine",

I don't know if it's the worst, I think telling people that they can't trust Christ for salvation and eternal life is worse myself. And as I look over your posts I see a lot of convoluted reasonsings, short little snippets of Scripture, no context, and without seriously looking at what those verses are really saying.

I think true doctrine can be clearly expressed straight from the Bible.

Like the matter of, will disobedience cost you your relationship with God? No. God will discipline His children, and His discipline is always effective. So no. It's simple, simply stated, and comes straight from the Bible.

Much love!

 

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2 Peter 2:9-12 KJV
9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

He's speaking concerning the unsaved.

Romans 8:5-9 KJV
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

On what do you base this assessment? On the external principle of, "If they're not saved NOW, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place!" Where is that in Scripture? It's not in 1Jn2:19, which connects to 2Jn1:7-9 --- if someone does not watch himself against deceivers he CAN "go out from us" (go too far!) and not have God! Besides, a few verses after 1Jn2:19, is 26-28 --- we are to guard ourselves against deceivers lest we shrink-in-shame at His return. Is "shrink-in-shame", compatible with "saved"? No. Is it a real possibility for those who do not guard against deceivers?

Yes.

Again, WHY is it an "unsaved person"? Those in verses 20-22 are NOT the "false-teachers-and-prophets", the false never cease from sin. Never. They don't escape anything. The FALSE, seek to entice the TRUE -- KJV "ontos-apopheugo-truly-escaped".

APAK, if someone is "never-saved" but is able to "escape defilements", then he does it without Jesus (although Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing"). Why do we even need Jesus if we can escape defilements all by ourselves, even for a brief time?

As I said, those in 2Pet2:20-22 are truly escaped, and fall back into sin (become unsaved); that is the only way they are worse than before they were saved. (If they were never saved, the last unsaved-state would be the SAME as the first, and the middle state, ot could not be worse!)

Do you disagree?

Do you remember the "parable of the soils", in Luke8? Actually, it's not "parable of the soils"; it's parable of the PLANTS. The image of "fruitful-plants-growing-on-good-soil" is applied AFTER they persevere, and the image of "withering-plants-on-bad-soil" is applied AFTER they fall. God does not make the soil good or bad (that's Calvinism), they choose all by themslves. And it's the same in 2Pet2 --- the IMAGE of "dogs and pigs", is applied AFTER they persevere and fall.

To be clear, men do not escape defilements and come back to their vomit and mire because they are continuously dogs and pigs --- dogs and pigs do not escape vomit and mire, they never want to; there was a time where these people were NOT dogs and pigs, they were only CALLED such because of the vomit and mire in which they dwelt!

Any way to dispute that?

The unsaved cannot escape sin, they don't have the power; that's why we need Jesus...

See? "The false prophets and false teachers, who are blemishes, dark storms, NEVER CEASE FROM SIN, they nevertheless WANT to escape DEFILEMENTS and succeed for a while WITHOUT JESUS!'

No, the false, seek to entice the truly-escaped BACK INTO sin. Verse 18.

STOP -- this is a major contention with me. It does not say "add to one's (saved) faith" (as if there is a saved faith WITHOUT godly qualities), it says "supply IN your faith"!

The godly qualities are not optional! There is no such thing as "carnal-Christian"! Until we establish and accept this absolute in Scripture, it does no good to discuss the verses.

I look forward to how you see 2Pet1:18, "the FALSE, seek to entice the TRULY ESCAPED back into defilements!"


Then they pulled off a grand self-righteousness-stunt and didn't need Jesus to "escape sin". I know you don't believe that...

I really do not want to explain myself again and again. I thought I made myself clear already.

In short read 2 Peter Chapter 21b again. This person did not trust the Christ via his/her knowledge of the gospel. Peter was really accusing false teachers in swaying there people away from BELIEVING in the gospel, who already had full knowledge of it. I cannot make my point any clearer that this. Either you understand it and agree or do not agree, or you do not understand it and do not agree.

2 Peter 2:21
KJV

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
What part of turning away from the holy commandment delivered to them with the knowledge of it do you not understand?

They knew the way of righteousness (and the epignosis of the Lord within the message) and still turned away (not trusting in faith) for the gospel that was delivered to them, influenced by false teachers.....this was Peter's main point here. He hated the false teachers that would snatch a person ready to be saved....

..let it be then....and move on

 

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My thoughts as well, why is there a need to be chastined if we are supposedly sinless?

Galatians 5:16-18 KJV
16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

And why this?

Much love!

 

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In short read 2 Peter Chapter 21b again. This person did not trust the Christ via his/her knowledge of the gospel. Peter was really accusing false teachers in swaying there people away from BELIEVING in the gospel, who already had full knowledge of it.

Exactly.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I really do not want to explain myself again and again. I thought I made myself clear already.

In short read 2 Peter Chapter 21b again. This person did not trust the Christ via his/her knowledge of the gospel. Peter was really accusing false teachers in swaying there people away from BELIEVING in the gospel, who already had full knowledge of it. I cannot make my point any clearer that this. Either you understand it and agree or do not agree, or you do not understand it and do not agree.

2 Peter 2:21
KJV

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
What part of turning away from the holy commandment delivered to them with the knowledge of it do you not understand?

They knew the way of righteousness (and the epignosis of the Lord within the message) and still turned away (not trusting in faith) for the gospel that was delivered to them, influenced by false teachers.....this was Peter's main point here. He hated the false teachers that would snatch a person ready to be saved....

..let it be then....and move on

This same tenor is shown,

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37) For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

This shows two groups, thse who draw back unto perdition, and those that believe to salvation.

Hebrews 6:9 KJV
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Much love!

 

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We're reading verses together about "turning away from God". You and I read Heb3:12-14 --- can we be "deceived by sin to a hard disbelieving heart that falls away from God"? That is exactly what it says. So to continue in a OSAS doctrine, how many verses would we be willing to read, and then stamp "NOT REALLY" (they do not really mean what they say)?

"Do not harden your hearts. Take care, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another while it is still called today, lest you be hardened by deceitful sin. For we are partners (metochos!) in Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


And if we don't hold fast, these means we have not become partakers of Christ. This is not a "lose your salvation" passage, this is "how do you know you are saved" passage.

Matthew 13:20-21 KJV
20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

1 John 2:19 KJV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

This same tenor is shown,

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37) For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

This shows two groups, thse who draw back unto perdition, and those that believe to salvation.

Hebrews 6:9 KJV
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Much love!

Excellent bolded verse and on point! On target for sure. I understand it completely as you do. We believe to the saving of the soul INDEED!

 

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The point is, we have to "put on the new man" --- daily. Please consider 1Jn3:6, 9:
"No one who abides in Him sins. ...no one who is born of God sins, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God."
And yet, we-the-saved, do sin. "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us". 1Jn1:8

What's the answer? There is only one answer --- being "born-of-God", is forfeitable; we can turn to sin, which is turning away from God. It's nothing else.

Romans 7:15-25 KJV
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The new man is the new creation, the child of God. The old man is the first creation, the child of Adam. The child of Adam is corrupt and sinful. The child of God is righteous and holy.

Much love!

 

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Ephesians 2:1-10 KJV
1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Seated in the heavenlies . . .

Colossians 3:3 KJV
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Is it?

Hebrews 2:14-15 KJV
14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Did He?

Hebrews 7:24-25 KJV
24) But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Is He able? Does He "ever liveth to make intercession"? Is His intercession efficacious?

It is.

Much love!

 

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true-saved-knowledge

Where are you getting this definition?

You are speaking of epignosis, is that right?

Much love!

 

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These non-believers with the same entry level epignosis of truth and righteousness as the saved, from the holy command in the gospel essentially, THESE TURNED THEIR BACK ON IT (the gospel) as it is stated in verse 21b. They never trusted Christ for their salvation!

Epignosis refers to knowledge of a certain degree, but not of a certain type.

@Gadgetere

Much love!

 

[marks]

On what do you base this assessment? On the external principle of, "If they're not saved NOW, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place!" Where is that in Scripture? It's not in 1Jn2:19, which connects to 2Jn1:7-9 --- if someone does not watch himself against deceivers he CAN "go out from us" (go too far!) and not have God! Besides, a few verses after 1Jn2:19, is 26-28 --- we are to guard ourselves against deceivers lest we shrink-in-shame at His return. Is "shrink-in-shame", compatible with "saved"? No. Is it a real possibility for those who do not guard against deceivers?

This is where, right where you are looking:

1 John 2:19 KJV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Plainly stated. These who leave do so revealing they never were of the rest. They left us because they never were one of us.

Plain truth, plainly stated, plainly understood.

Much love!

 

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No, "fallen-from-grace", is "severed-from-Christ", no way that is "still saved". Who can argue that?

Apparently we can. Debate it, at least!



Does your interpretation harmonize with this passage?

Hebrews 13:5-6 KJV
5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Is this true? Will He leave us after all? Will He forsake us at some future time? Or no? Can we trust this plainly stated, plainly understood passage?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. You and I just read Heb12:7-8 --- God treats us AS sons IF we submit to His discipline;

That's not what the passage says. Did you become confused?

Hebrews 12:5-8 KJV
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If you are a son, you will be chastised. If you are not chastised, it's NOT because you don't submit to it, the reason is because you are not His son.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I would say you have it backwards; the Spirit indwells us first by invitation -- that's why it says we receive the Spirit. Balance this passage with Col3 -- "SET YOUR MINDS on things above, not earthly things".

Again . . .

Romans 8:9 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You may be in the flesh, or you may be in the Spirit. If you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are not His. If you do, you are in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Not because you sin or don't sin, but because the Spirit of Christ lives in you. According to this passage.

Do you agree with this?

Much love!

 

[Gadgetere]

I've been studying this for decades actually. But I do continue to see new things!

The questions I've asked you, they are very particular, very precise, and for a reason. Precise and direct answers are what I'm hoping for.

Please refresh my memory? Thanx...

 

[Gadgetere]

You chose which you do that to.

Will you do that here?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Or do you now know?

We are sons -- but the question is, can we become NOT-sons? What does the parable of the Prodigal Son mean to you? (Lk15:11-32) The Prodigal went to the far land, and began to live licentiously. Some say, "Well he never stopped being a SON, did he?"

Yes, there was a time when he was not a son; per verse 32 he was DEAD, now is alive again. A corpse is not a son! If this passage is not conveying "falling-from-salvation-and-returning", then Antinomianism is the theme of Scripture; we can be drunk, carousing, fornicating, but we're still SAVED. We'll have to mark out 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, much of 1Jn (especially chapter 3), and on...

Do you deny that a child-of-God (son), can stop being a child/son?

 

[Gadgetere]

You chose which you do that to.

Will you do that here?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Or do you now know?

"Now we are the sons of God ...we shall be like Him". Will you agree that we are "partners in Christ", and "partners in a heavenly calling"?

Have you responded to Heb3:12-14? "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another while it is still called 'today', lest anyone be hardened by deceitful sin. For we are partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

How can we make that verse fit "OSAS"? Is he talking to unsaved brethren (like James in 1:13-16 is talking to unsaved BELOVED brethren)? Verse 3:8 says "do not harden your heart (like the Israelites did in the wilderness)". Can we just stamp this all with, "NOT REALLY" (we can not really harden ourselves to falling away from God)?

How do you think 1Jn3:1-3 harmonizes with Heb3:12-14, and Lk15:11-32? What are they trying to teach us?