Plus saying that no one goes there, does away with the fact that it's by faith that one comes into the good of what Christ did at the Cross for hell-deserving sinners...
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
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If you want the biblical meaning kindly go to Vine's Expository Dictionary and look up "perish". Ruined means eternally damned (Rev 14:10,11). This passage would apply to all who are in the Lake of Fire, not just those who took the Mark of the Beast.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
We obviously see this from two different perspectives...since you're not going to change my mind, and I'm not interested in changing yours, why don't we call it a draw and leave it at that. Peace, brother.
I read a story last night about these three teenagers who brought along with them a newcomer and they were traveling around eventually picked up by a man in a truck. The boys road out to a forest, stealing a shovel, and left off running to them. On to a burial ground; where a casket was. They told the come—along Samson go start digging after they had opened up the coffin. Samson didn’t not want to dig, so the boys roughed him up by tying the rope found around the casket.
They told Samson they gotta trust them if he wants to be part of the gang, and reluctantly Samson obliged. He was told to dig four feet into the earth, with wide enough space for the coffin to fig nicely. A near pipe was laying nearby and one of the thugs went to grab it to make use as a breathing hose for Samson.
After Samson finished they told him to get in the casket in which he did so, and was placed 4 feet deep into the earth in which the boys took turns placing dirt on after lodging the pole in to the casket for Samson to breath. After filling the hole back up completely, packed in. One of the young teens asked if Samson could hear them and you could hear mumbles from under the earth.
The three boys said what now; and one said they seen a gas station a mile back and they would go get a coke.
Then Samson was alone in a coffin. Under the earth. Where he couldn’t move and the thoughts of movement bothered him, so much he started to smash his head against the coffin itself, yet a his inner voice said to stop he would bleed to death. The pipe had mud in it and it wouldn’t be useful to breath. There was a better bug that had followed in earlier before the closed the casket in which he could hear fluttering around. Then Samson could hear the worms coming for him, and had thoughts about maggots would end up coming out of him…. Alone hearing his own heart beat; he became no more.
Hell of a story I know, talk about dirt napping.
(This paraphrase story is from Michael Slades book called Ghoul).
They told Samson they gotta trust them if he wants to be part of the gang, and reluctantly Samson obliged. He was told to dig four feet into the earth, with wide enough space for the coffin to fig nicely. A near pipe was laying nearby and one of the thugs went to grab it to make use as a breathing hose for Samson.
After Samson finished they told him to get in the casket in which he did so, and was placed 4 feet deep into the earth in which the boys took turns placing dirt on after lodging the pole in to the casket for Samson to breath. After filling the hole back up completely, packed in. One of the young teens asked if Samson could hear them and you could hear mumbles from under the earth.
The three boys said what now; and one said they seen a gas station a mile back and they would go get a coke.
Then Samson was alone in a coffin. Under the earth. Where he couldn’t move and the thoughts of movement bothered him, so much he started to smash his head against the coffin itself, yet a his inner voice said to stop he would bleed to death. The pipe had mud in it and it wouldn’t be useful to breath. There was a better bug that had followed in earlier before the closed the casket in which he could hear fluttering around. Then Samson could hear the worms coming for him, and had thoughts about maggots would end up coming out of him…. Alone hearing his own heart beat; he became no more.
Hell of a story I know, talk about dirt napping.
(This paraphrase story is from Michael Slades book called Ghoul).
How about if I tell you that I used to believe in eternal punishment, as I was taught, until one day the Lord took several hours out of my day and led me on a journey of discovery through my bible and concordance which ended in me seeing that it is the fire, not the punishment, that is eternal. It took God to change my mind, and I believe that that is what happened. I'm not interested in changing your mind about it. Don't take my word for it...ask the Lord.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
This is all just mental gymnastics to get around the plain reading of Scripture. You're welcome to believe this convoluted nonsense, if you're so convicted, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever. After #2, I just had to stop. It hurts my head. To say that Ecclesiastes 9:5 doesn't prove that the dead know not anything is just mind-numbing to me. Peace to you.
If only Samson was able to call on a super-strong friend who could've come and bound those devilish kids. Oh well, You go with what you know...I guess! Lol
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Right on
hey Truman
I think the moral of the story is be careful who you trust. The book written shouted out to Hp love craft, Edgar Allen Poe, Stephen king, alice cooper and someone else, I enjoy me some Stephen king, or dean kootz books.
Prove it then, I did not make an interpretation I asked you questions about your interpretation from the article you copy-and-pasted. I am not convicted to anything in the sense that I would not change my opinion and leave my Church if I was proven to be wrong. I am ultimately bound to what God says and will change accordingly, in this year I have been proven to be wrong so many times I stopped caring about changing my position on things. So you can add to that if you want, but dismissing it only says to me that your opinion is worth dismissing. God bless.
Since God does not contradict Himself, this is rather questionable. On the other hand Satan would love to see people dismiss him as a figment of their imagination, and dismiss Hell as something that does not exist. Yet, strangely enough "hell" has firmly entered into the English vocabulary so that people unconsciously say "What the H***" or "The H*** with it" or "That was hellish".
It took God to get me to change my mind, and since He doesn't contradict Himself, He won't change it again. I can agree to disagree.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it. Anyone who believes the God of the Bible is such that He willingly and purposefully keeps billions and billions of people alive in the midst of fire in order that they suffer interminably forever without end and without rest, does not know God as well as they should.
And they go to the Bible to prove an already existing assumption taught outside of scripture.
One can look at phrases such as everlasting punishment and automatically think, there see, everlasting torment in hell. But that isn't what it says, and you know it. You also read 'for ever and ever' but you've been told time and time again that the original language doesn't mean what the English infers, but you don't want to understand that because you're stubborn. You read the story of Luke 16 and believe that confirms everything and twist and squirm and rearrange other texts to explain it according to your pre-existing assumptions, yet it still doesn't make sense but you cleave to it anyway.
You read where Jesus was dead and buried in one place and read in another where Noah taught the people of his day through the spirit of Christ repentance and righteousness and join them together to justify the story sending Jesus to 'hell' where He is tormented forever... Oh wait... No He wasn't. He died right? So He didn't take all our punishment for sin. Wait, yes He did, but, oh, ... How confused do people make the gospel through their traditions.
And all the above nonsense you cleave resolutely to why? Not because the Bible exclusively teaches it no, because there are dozens of texts which clearly and succinctly teach annihilation.
You cleave to it because that's the kind of God you believe Jesus to be. A tyrannical spiteful unjust unmerciful judgemental despot. You don't know Him.
And they go to the Bible to prove an already existing assumption taught outside of scripture.
One can look at phrases such as everlasting punishment and automatically think, there see, everlasting torment in hell. But that isn't what it says, and you know it. You also read 'for ever and ever' but you've been told time and time again that the original language doesn't mean what the English infers, but you don't want to understand that because you're stubborn. You read the story of Luke 16 and believe that confirms everything and twist and squirm and rearrange other texts to explain it according to your pre-existing assumptions, yet it still doesn't make sense but you cleave to it anyway.
You read where Jesus was dead and buried in one place and read in another where Noah taught the people of his day through the spirit of Christ repentance and righteousness and join them together to justify the story sending Jesus to 'hell' where He is tormented forever... Oh wait... No He wasn't. He died right? So He didn't take all our punishment for sin. Wait, yes He did, but, oh, ... How confused do people make the gospel through their traditions.
And all the above nonsense you cleave resolutely to why? Not because the Bible exclusively teaches it no, because there are dozens of texts which clearly and succinctly teach annihilation.
You cleave to it because that's the kind of God you believe Jesus to be. A tyrannical spiteful unjust unmerciful judgemental despot. You don't know Him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Nah...sorry that is not what the Bible teaches at all.....
The god of this world can “blind the minds” of "unbelievers" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)....which doesn't mean that they don't "believe" per se....it means that they don’t believe the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) God allows them to stick to their delusions because they have no love of the truth...preferring to believe the lies.
Can a person be a “Christian” and not know that Jesus regards them as law breakers?
Apparently so....
Matthew 7:21-23...”Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”
Wowsers! What a let down! Here they were thinking that their “Christianity” was “fair dinkum” only to be told that Jesus “never knew” them. “Never” means “not ever”, so right from when the weeds of false Christianity were first sown by the devil, Jesus has never set foot in their churches. They break God’s law with every false teaching....and there are heaps of them. Most of which was gradually introduced when the RCC started to implant pagan Roman ideas 'doctrinally', which set Protestantism up to accept the same rubbish. The Greeks provided the rest.
I wish you people would do your homework.....
Really? Please tell us where it says this.....? Are the angels going to vacate too?
No sorry, that is not in any of the Bibles I use.....you are getting your scripture all muddled up.
1 Kings 8:27....Solomon said...
"But will God really dwell on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!"
God is a spirit who cannot dwell in a limited earthly realm. If "the heavens of the heavens cannot contain" him, how is he going to live here?
He would have to become a human to do that, and since he never became a human before in order to be "with" his ancient people, why would he need to become a human simply to be "with" mankind now? (John 1:18)
How was God "with" his people in ancient times? Wasn't it by means of his human representatives?
Jesus Christ was also his Father's representative.....his "apostle and High Priest" (Hebrews 3:1)...so how can that be if Jesus is God? How does one part of God serve the other part of his equal self in these capacities? Please explain....
If Jesus returned to his Father in heaven, never to take on flesh again (his body was sacrificed once for all time)....where does it say that God is going to live here on earth?
That is not possible because "no man may see [God] and yet live". (Exodus 33:20)
None of what you believe makes a lick of sense to me. Are there others who believe what you do? Do you have a brotherhood?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Take care, don't write off what you don't understand. You are making the same mistake as those who don't agree with annihilation. You are throwing out truth without recourse to serious consideration.Nah...sorry that is not what the Bible teaches at all.....
The god of this world can “blind the minds” of "unbelievers" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)....which doesn't mean that they don't "believe" per se....it means that they don’t believe the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) God allows them to stick to their delusions because they have no love of the truth...preferring to believe the lies.
Can a person be a “Christian” and not know that Jesus regards them as law breakers?
Apparently so....
Matthew 7:21-23...”Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”
Wowsers! What a let down! Here they were thinking that their “Christianity” was “fair dinkum” only to be told that Jesus “never knew” them. “Never” means “not ever”, so right from when the weeds of false Christianity were first sown by the devil, Jesus has never set foot in their churches. They break God’s law with every false teaching....and there are heaps of them. Most of which was gradually introduced when the RCC started to implant pagan Roman ideas 'doctrinally', which set Protestantism up to accept the same rubbish. The Greeks provided the rest.
I wish you people would do your homework.....
Really? Please tell us where it says this.....? Are the angels going to vacate too?
No sorry, that is not in any of the Bibles I use.....you are getting your scripture all muddled up.
1 Kings 8:27....Solomon said...
"But will God really dwell on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!"
God is a spirit who cannot dwell in a limited earthly realm. If "the heavens of the heavens cannot contain" him, how is he going to live here?
He would have to become a human to do that, and since he never became a human before in order to be "with" his ancient people, why would he need to become a human simply to be "with" mankind now? (John 1:18)
How was God "with" his people in ancient times? Wasn't it by means of his human representatives?
Jesus Christ was also his Father's representative.....his "apostle and High Priest" (Hebrews 3:1)...so how can that be if Jesus is God? How does one part of God serve the other part of his equal self in these capacities? Please explain....
If Jesus returned to his Father in heaven, never to take on flesh again (his body was sacrificed once for all time)....where does it say that God is going to live here on earth?
That is not possible because "no man may see [God] and yet live". (Exodus 33:20)
None of what you believe makes a lick of sense to me. Are there others who believe what you do? Do you have a brotherhood?
KJV Revelation 21:1-3
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Our little world, under the curse of sin the one dark blot in His glorious creation, will be honored above all other worlds in the universe of God. Here, where the Son of God tabernacled in humanity; where the King of glory lived and suffered and died,--here, when He shall make all things new, the tabernacle of God shall be with men, "and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." And through endless ages as the redeemed walk in the light of the Lord, they will praise Him for His unspeakable Gift,-- {DA 26}
KJV Revelation 21:4-7, 22
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
KJV Revelation 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
So you also believe that God is going to be confined to this earth when his Kingdom rules mankind?
How was God "with" his ancient people? How did he rule them? He did not come down from heaven to literally dwell with them did he?
Moses was his "mediator" and he spoke to the people through him. But not personally....The Word was always God's spokesman.
Thereafter, the High Priest was the one appointed to speak to the people for God and to offer the atonement sacrifices till the coming of the Messiah.
When Jesus came, and offered his life, a new covenant was instituted and he took up the position of "mediator" (1 timothy 2:5) and was also described as God's "apostle and High Priest". (Hebrews 3:1) Jesus appointed the twelve, whom he personally trained and taught, and who would carry on the work that he started. All prayers directed to God thereafter were to offered in the name of Jesus Christ as the one who is the current mediator.
Once the Kingdom was established in the heavens, there was no point in Jesus taking his disciples to heaven if he was just going to bring them back to the earth. NO. His kingdom rules from heaven over earthly subjects. Jesus went back to heaven to prepare a place for his elect.....that is where they will dwell forever. They do not have to be on earth to do that.
Humankind will not be able to dwell with God in the way Adam and his wife originally did, till the end of the millennium. Only then when Jesus has brought all human authority and power under his control and he has taken mankind all the way to the end of his assignment, eliminating sin and death from the human race, will Jesus hand back rulership over mankind to his God and Father. Only then will God's first purpose be reinstated as it was originally intended to be.
1 Corinthians 15:20-26...
"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death." (NET)
That is when I believe that Revelation 21:2-4 sees fulfillment.
Out of context, it means what it says, Satan blinds the eyes of unbelievers, not of believers, per Jesus in Luke:
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Your 2nd Thessalonians proof text is also out of context - it’s about unbeivers, who reject the truth that would save them because they love unrighteousness.:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Your exegesis of scripture leaves much to be desired.
The above is not talk8ng about believers rejecting the truth, but unbelievers rejecting the truth.
So are you seriously trying to make belief or rejection iof soul sleep a salvational issue?
That’s a ridiculous assertion.
Actually those who keep the ended old covenant for their righteousness have a bad shock coming.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Here is what I see.
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:18, 19; Mal. 4:1; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Rev. 20; 21:1-5.)
The New Earth
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; 2 Peter 3:13; Rev. 11:15; 21:1-7; 22:1-5.)
God is not confined, but He chooses the earth made new as His universal capital. No-one is claiming He is confined anywhere.
Through His Son, Christ. It was the spirit of Christ who spoke and preached through Noah. 1 Peter 3:18-20.
It was Christ who led Israel from Egypt. 1 Cor. 10:4
It was Christ in the form of man who spoke to Abraham and wrestled with Jacob, it was Christ who appeared to Manoah. Who through His Spirit inspired the prophets, and in the incarnation became a man. And in the resurrection continued in His humanity and now reigns from the sanctuary in heaven to bring about all the purposes of His Father.
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