Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

[BarneyFife]

your case is based in definitions and understandings beyond Scripture

Could you perhaps point to a case of "definitions and understandings beyond Scripture" in one of these posts?

Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

 

[Abaxvahl]

Could you perhaps point to a case of "definitions and understandings beyond Scripture" in one of these posts?

Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

Nowhere is death defined, assertions about the translation in Luke and 1 Peter with no proof provided that this is so, metaphysical assumptions about the soul and the continuity of personhood without it's existence, assuming said definitions of the soul provided are the exclusive definitions of the soul in Scripture (speaking of body and breath being the soul exhaustively). Those are just a few.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Enoch111 it seems to me like you are missing some details of the Jewish version of Gehenna but rather adhering to the borrowed Greek one. It was the pagan Greeks who promoted the idea of an immortal soul....it is nowhere found in scripture.

Jesus preached to an exclusively Jewish audience. How did they understand what “Gehenna” was?
The Valley of Hinnom was Gehenna. It was Jerusalem’s rubbish dump where the fires were kept burning day and night to consume whatever was thrown in there. The carcasses of dead animals and even the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into Gehenna to dispose of them like garbage. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off. To a Jew, being cast into Gehenna meant that God considered you not worthy of a decent burial, and therefore not worthy of a resurrection. Jews did not have any teaching of an immortal soul in their scripture......none!

So all those scriptures you quoted are right, but you have entirely the wrong interpretation of them.

Gehenna, like the lake of fire “means the second death” which is a death from which there is no resurrection.....nowhere does it say that it is a literal place where the dead are consciously punished.....nothing that goes into the lake of fire ever comes out. It is a place symbolising eternal death, which is the opposite to eternal life.
Death and hades are thrown in there too, (Revelation 20:13,14) meaning that death and the grave will never plague humanity ever again. (Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[BarneyFife]

There is no deficiency in the translation, but the word "soul" can be applied to either persons or souls, depending on context. Here is an example where souls and persons are used for the same Greek word:

King James Bible
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

New American Standard Bible
who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Unless "persons" and "souls" mean the same thing (as they do if you leave Greek philosophy out of your Christianity). Or you could just claim that the NASB is more accurate than the King James in some passages, as you seem to have done here. Aren't you a KJV-only kinda fella?

The distress signal called S.O.S means "Save Our Souls". This is not about salvation but rescue from impending death.

But isn't that precisely how the relationship between OT and NT works? Literal vs. spiritual?

 

[BarneyFife]

Nowhere is death defined, assertions about the translation in Luke and 1 Peter with no proof provided that this is so, metaphysical assumptions about the soul and the continuity of personhood without it's existence, assuming said definitions of the soul provided are the exclusive definitions of the soul in Scripture (speaking of body and breath being the soul exhaustively). Those are just a few.

Over my head. You're gonna hafta be more specific. I ain't that smart. Only if you feel like it, though.

 

[Curtis]

Well, if that is what you want to believe after all the scripture shown to you, there is an old saying that I think applies to those who continue to preach the “immortal soul” doctrine....and the “I’m going to heaven immediately to be with the Lord when I die” scenario...you see....
“A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

Only the elect are going to heaven, but the rest will remain on earth where God put us in the first place...including ALL those in their graves (hades) whom Jesus will resurrect, (John 5:28-29) just like he did Lazarus, whom he said was “sleeping”. Apparently Jesus has nothing to offer you on this topic since you are ignoring much of what he said, and misinterpreting the rest....

There will be nothing to penetrate your closed mind and heart.....and I am sorry for that.

Yes, scripture truth makes one closed minded to false doctrine.

No one will live in heaven in the future.

God dwells forever on the new earth, and at His return, Jesus sets up His everlasting kingdom on earth, forever, ruling from Jerusalem on the throne of David. per tons of old and New Testament prophecy, and all that are His, Jew and gentile, dwell with Him.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes, scripture truth makes one closed minded to false doctrine.

No one will live in heaven in the future.

God dwells forever on the new earth, and at His return, Jesus sets up His everlasting kingdom on earth, forever, ruling from Jerusalem on the throne of David. per tons of old and New Testament prophecy, and all that are His, Jew and gentile, dwell with Him.

And out comes the millennium. More stuff to argue about.

 

[Curtis]

No doubt. Who said it wasn't descriptive? By the way, the doctrine teaches that the soul is a body + breath. There is no Hellenistic duality involved as you describe.

If the soul was breath then the soul doesn’t sleep in the dirt, and the warming about gaining the world and losing your soul is nonsense, because that means everyone who dies loses their soul.

Also it’s nonsense to say that breath is destroyed in hell, if breath is the soul.

Let’s plug your claim into Jesus’ warning and see if it makes sense: fear not those who have power to destroy your body, but fear Him who has power to destroy body and breath in hell.

The breath stops when the body dies, it’s not destroyed, it simply stops, thus it’s nonsensical to say body and breath is destroyed in hell, besides which the body remains in the grave, it’s not destroyed, another reason why hell is not the grave.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Over my head. You're gonna hafta be more specific. I ain't that smart. Only if you feel like it, though.

Some of the things it assumes without proving in more detail:

1) That the soul only means the combination of a body and breath of life (which is in itself undefined, and the manner of it's return to God is undefined).
2) And assuming this is even true, for their definition can be assumed, it does not prove that the dead know nothing, say if one holds the soul and spirit are separate, or soul and mind, that knowledge can not come to it. Ecclesiastes 9:5 is used of this verse but there is no reason to think that this means the dead know absolutely nothing for then it would not be the case that Samuel, or Moses, or as a certain person thinks also, Elijah, could speak, which is associated with knowledge, and the same word of "spirit" or "breath" is used of Samuel. If it is then said "they can not know without being in the Earth" then the passage means that they can not know the things of the living, which is used by the author of this article of the very next verse.
3) The above last sentence if true does not prove an absolute state of the dead, if it does then this assumption must be proven too.
4) "Sleep" is said to be unconsciousness, this is an assumption and is not defined. Moreover what exactly is meant by the dead sleeping is not defined. An alternative solution (no less valid) is that it refers to the position of the bodies in the grave, this is also an assumption yes, but why should I assume it means unconsciousness? Define it from the Scriptures and prove it.
5) "Soul" itself needs proof that it only is the breath of life and the body, for if the disunity of that is meant by "ceases to exist" then sure, the soul (in that sense, which is still not defined) ceases to exist, but this does not argue against what the "immortality of the soul" means.

 

[Heart2Soul]

The body + breath (spirit) = a soul. To divide the soul from the spirit is to cause death. Only God can resurrect a body and restore the spirit so that it lives and breathes again.
That is my understanding

I like this...going to meditate on it.

 

[farouk]

I like this...going to meditate on it.

Hi @Heart2Soul Ephesians 2 says that we were 'dead in trespasses and sins' but in grace are made alive in Christ.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hi @Heart2Soul Ephesians 2 says that we were 'dead in trespasses and sins' but in grace are made alive in Christ.

Amen, thank you Lord for your abundant Grace that makes us alive in you!.

 

[liafailrock]

The Bible refutes that on more than one occasion. And the words of Christ should be the final authority in all things.

MARK 9 (KJV): THE REALITY OF ETERNAL HELL STATED BY CHRIST
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [Gehenna = the Lake of Fire], into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, [Gehenna = the Lake of Fire] into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire [Gehenna = the Lake of Fire]: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

1. Why did Christ speak of Gehenna three times in seven verses? Because this was a solemn and dire warning to all sinners to repent and be converted before death.

2. Why did Christ say "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" three times in seven verses? Because the "worm" is a metaphor for the torments of Hell, and the fires of Hell are unquenchable. Therefore eternal. If this does not add up to eternal torment, then you can fool yourself any way you want.

So let's look at the meaning of Gehenna as noted in Bible Hub.
HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment.

Then let's look at the significance of "worm" in this context, and go to John Gill's commentary:
'...Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. The passage referred to, is in Isaiah 66:24, and as there, the words are spoken of such, as transgressed against the Lord; so here, of such as offended any of Christ's little ones, or were offended by an hand, a foot, or eye, and retained them: by their worm is meant, their conscience; for as a worm that is continually gnawing upon the entrails of a man, gives him exquisite pain; so the consciences of sinners, will be continually flying in their faces, bringing their sins to remembrance, accusing them of them, upbraiding them with them, aggravating them, tormenting them for them, filling them with dreadful anguish and misery, with twinging remorses, and severe reflections, and which will never have an end.

This will be always the case; conscience will be ever distressing, racking, and torturing them; it will never cease, nor cease doing this office, and so the Chaldee paraphrase of Isaiah 66:24 renders this phrase, , "their souls shall not die"; but shall ever continue in the dreadful torments and unspeakable horrors of a corroding conscience; and by "the fire" may be meant the fire of divine wrath let into their souls, which will never be extinguished; and so Jarchi interprets the phrase in Isaiah 66:24, "their fire", "in hell".

It is a tradition of the Jews (l), that the light, fire, which God created on the second day, "there is no quenching it for ever"; as it is said, "for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched", Isaiah 66:24, the passage which is here referred to; the reason they give is, because it is the fire of hell; the sense of which is sometimes given by the Jewish doctors thus (m); "their worm shall not die" from the body, "and the fire shall not be quenched" from the soul...'

I have no issue with what the Lord stated, but he was describing Gehenna, aka the Valley of Hinnom where trash, animal carcasses and other things were devoured by fire, which was never quenched but kept burning and the maggots were continually active (the sinner was not called a worm). In short, Jesus was using a real place to describe anything thrown in would face total destruction, a just ending to an unrepentant sinner. This was compared to eternal fire. In today's vernacular is the same as saying "burnt up forever". There's no resurrection from that. I have yet to see any fire which is not eternal; I mean, have you ever seen anything rise from their ashes? They are forever burnt up.

But this begs the question, why is Jesus there in eternal hell fire since he died for our sins? I thought he was arisen.

 

[Truman]

Consumed, former, perish, no more, nada, cease to exist.

 

[farouk]

Consumed, former, perish, no more, nada, cease to exist.

@Truman Perish (John 3.16) does not mean loss of being, but loss of well-being...

 

[Truman]

@Truman Perish (John 3.16) does not mean loss of being, but loss of well-being...

Definition of perish


intransitive verb

1: to become destroyed or ruined : cease to exist - Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[farouk]

Definition of perish


intransitive verb

1: to become destroyed or ruined : cease to exist - Merriam-Webster Dictionary

...but this isn't the full meaning....

The rich man in Luke 16 is in hell, in torment and conscious.

If my car tire is in a bad way, it's perished, but it hasn't ceased to exist...

 

[Truman]

...but this isn't the full meaning....

The rich man in Luke 16 is in hell, in torment and conscious.

If my car tire is in a bad way, it's perished, but it hasn't ceased to exist...

To each his own.

 

[farouk]

To each his own.

Well, it does seem indeed to be what Luke 16 says...

 

[Truman]

Well, it does seem indeed to be what Luke 16 says...

That's one way of looking at it.