OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

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Gadgetere

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Some portions in the quote were snipped (to not go over the post limit) but were however considered in this response.

<<<Perfect God, perfectly righteous, in Whom there is no sin, wrought sin into Pharaoh?>>>

Nobody is saying that God wrought sin into Pharaoh.
If God actually hardens any heart, then yes that makes Him causal to sin. Please look at all of the verses that say "do not harden YOUR OWN heart"! Heb3:8 and 12-13 for instance.
That God hardened Pharoah does not make God as by that wrought sin into Pharaoh. Scriptures plainly and clearly and without ambiguity states that God hardened Pharaoh.
God didn't do it; as you saw, context proves "God-did-it" (Ex10:1), and "Pharaoh-did-it-himself" (Ex9:34, 1Sam6:6), are the same. It's a recognized literary device. Those in OT times knew it, those in NT times knew it.
And to ask who is the one who hardened Pharaoh in that statement only have God as the answer.
Pharaoh did it himself. Much of what you say reflects Calvinism. Look at Acts4:27-28 -- does Luke say that God CAUSED Herod and Pilate to do such an evil deed? No! If I put a pound of beef in front of a rock slide, the fact that it ends up hamburger doesn't mean I made the rocks slide.
 

Gadgetere

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While scriptures also states that Pharaoh hardened his heart, that is a separate action of Pharaoh from that of God. And such does not take away the act of God stated, that He hardened Pharaoh. Explaining that away as God really in fact did not hardened Pharaoh is as dangerous as the statement of the serpent to Eve in the garden of Eden. As for me, I will go with what scriptures says, that when it states God hardens, it means God hardens.
Either God did it (making Him complicit in sin), or Pharaoh did it. Can't be both. "Going-with-what-Scripture-says" means sometimes we have to go to the original language, and we have to understand writing principles of the times.

With regards John 12:40 and Roman 11:8, let me quote:

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

Romans 11:
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

And you said:

“Does God really do that? Jesus has already answered -- also quoting Isaiah 6, Jesus says:

Matt13:15-16 "FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."

There it is -- Jesus blatantly said they close their OWN eyes and ears! 100% "Semitic View", God does not do it!”

In John 12, it tells us that God hardened their hearts and blinded them. And so too in Romans 11. In Matt.13, it tells us that they closed their eyes. Must we not accept and believe both?
The device is called "Semitic View", it's also called "Anthropomorphsim" ascribing to animals or others what men do themselves. (That was a link to Encyclopedia.com)

We cannot take one and not the other. It must be accepted that with regards the hardness of heart of those concerned, it is both because they had hardened their heart and because God hardened their heart. This is no different in the case of Pharaoh.
God cannot be complicit in sin; the accusation of that in Matt 12 made Jesus furious.
:eek:

But when the reader, begins to judge according to his own understanding, that God hardening their heart is evil and not righteous for God to do so, there goes the problem. He finds then the two as contradictory and starts to find a way to remove what contradiction he himself had made. And one of this is apparently is this literary device so called “Semitic view”.

Paul tells us what men does and what God does in Romans 1. Let’s read:

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason
God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,
God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they arewhisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

Do you see what the people are and what they do?

And do you also see who God is and what He (did) to them?
God giving them over to the wickedness they have chosen does not mean He hardened their hearts INTO that. He simply let them have what they chose.
 

Taken

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Yes, "no". Because faith is our constant choice, God does not keep us if we want to leave;

Already been over this.
Yes men can Leave being WITH the Lord...
UNTIL the Lords Spirit is IN the man...

There are many more like that. What shall we do with all of these to continue in OSAS?

Mark them out? Tear out the pages? Stamp them "NOT REALLY"? Or just pretend they aren't there?

Ignorant.

No...continue to do what you do...
Ignore the Truth, and despertately try to Apply Scriptures to men "IN" Christ, that Apply to men NOT "IN" Christ.
Then ask silly questions.

Can you resist these verses, Taken?

Resist those verses? LOL a funny comment.
Nothing I have ever said.
 

farouk

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Already been over this.
Yes men can Leave being WITH the Lord...
UNTIL the Lords Spirit is IN the man...





Ignorant.

No...continue to do what you do...
Ignore the Truth, and despertately try to Apply Scriptures to men "IN" Christ, that Apply to men NOT "IN" Christ.
Then ask silly questions.



Resist those verses? LOL a funny comment.
Nothing I have ever said.
@Taken Interesting that Romans 8.9 says: 'Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'; in other words, all true believers - born again of the Spirit of God - are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
 
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farouk

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Faith is a gift from God.
God gives (measures) faith to people for Hearing His word.
Men can continue to hear, continue to increase receiving faith....or stop hearing, and stop receiving faith....and become vunerable to hearing the evil and wickedness of this world, stay away from hearing Gods Word...
And Fall from faith.
Remain hearing, continue hearing, a mans faith increases, the desired point is:
FAITH-FUL and desired intent is: being prepared to COMMIT TO A CONVERSION.
@Taken Ephesians 2 and John 6 make it clear that saving faith is a work of God in the heart.
 

Taken

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@Taken Interesting that Romans 8.9 says: 'Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'; in other words, all true believers - born again of the Spirit of God - are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Talking to the choir.
 
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Pythagorean12

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I don't know about whatever definition the first post might have been referring to but, I've always taken the acronym to mean what the bible talked about as God's holy spirit promise in the faithful.
Once Sealed Always Sealed

Nothing can take away what God gives in his name and as his eternal irrevocable promise. Otherwise, it would be more powerful in the takeaway than God in the giving.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Some portions in the quote were snipped (to not go over the post limit) but were however considered in this response.

<<<Perfect God, perfectly righteous, in Whom there is no sin, wrought sin into Pharaoh?>>>

Nobody is saying that God wrought sin into Pharaoh.
If God actually hardens any heart, then yes that makes Him causal to sin. Please look at all of the verses that say "do not harden YOUR OWN heart"! Heb3:8 and 12-13 for instance.

Nope. Aren’t you trying to separate two truths? One that Pharaoh hardened his heart and two that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart? Or trying to dismiss the latter?

The point is, God hardening one’s heart is not evil nor makes God unrighteous. Only in the natural mind of men who think that they know better than God what is righteous and what is not. God does not arbitrarily hardens a person’s heart. He does so according to the counsel of His will. We know the story of Pharaoh, and Israel. God’s hardening is not so different from what God did to wicked man as Paul tells us in Romans 1.

That God hardened Pharoah does not make God as by that wrought sin into Pharaoh. Scriptures plainly and clearly and without ambiguity states that God hardened Pharaoh.
God didn't do it; as you saw, context proves "God-did-it" (Ex10:1), and "Pharaoh-did-it-himself" (Ex9:34, 1Sam6:6), are the same. It's a recognized literary device. Those in OT times knew it, those in NT times knew it.
It is either you believe what scriptures says as written or believe what you want it to say. Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh and also Israel. On the other hand you say God did not. Who am I to believe?

Scriptures says God has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You seem to say God does not harden whom He wills. Whom am I to believe?

But even you know whom shall we believe.

And to ask who is the one who hardened Pharaoh in that statement only have God as the answer.
Pharaoh did it himself. Much of what you say reflects Calvinism. Look at Acts4:27-28 -- does Luke say that God CAUSED Herod and Pilate to do such an evil deed? No! If I put a pound of beef in front of a rock slide, the fact that it ends up hamburger doesn't mean I made the rocks slide.

I do not deny that Pharaoh hardened himself, but I also do not deny, which you do, that God hardened Pharaoh.

But wait. To clarify, that God hardened Pharaoh and Israel does not mean to say that God is the reason why Pharaoh and Israel are like that, No. They are like that because they did that themselves. Now, that does not mean that God cannot harden them still that they would even be more hardened as they already are. Of course God can and God did so as scriptures says. Can’t deny that He did. Can’t explain that away by whatever way, not even by human wisdom, reasoning, thinking, understanding, philosophy, science, or what have you.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
While scriptures also states that Pharaoh hardened his heart, that is a separate action of Pharaoh from that of God. And such does not take away the act of God stated, that He hardened Pharaoh. Explaining that away as God really in fact did not harden Pharaoh is as dangerous as the statement of the serpent to Eve in the garden of Eden. As for me, I will go with what scriptures says, that when it states God hardens, it means God hardens.
Either God did it (making Him complicit in sin), or Pharaoh did it. Can't be both. "Going-with-what-Scripture-says" means sometimes we have to go to the original language, and we have to understand writing principles of the times.

<<<Either God did it (making Him complicit in sin), or Pharaoh did it. Can't be both. >>>

That’s your take and understanding. That it can’t be both, is based on where or what?

Clearly, that if God hardened Pharaoh, you take it that God is complicit in the sin of Pharaoh. Now, consider this. Pharaoh had hardened his heart. If God hardened it all the more or hardened it so that there is no room for not being hard, until such time that God had accomplished whatever purpose He had in doing that, is He complicit in the sin of Pharaoh? No sir! But anyway, if you insist He is, then He is, at least based on your own thinking and standards.

The device is called "Semitic View", it's also called "Anthropomorphsim" ascribing to animals or others what men do themselves. (That was a link to Encyclopedia.com)

I checked out the link. Anthropomorphism is far from what you are saying about “Semitic View”.

I hope you can give a link that speaks of what you say about “Semitic view”.

We cannot take one and not the other. It must be accepted that with regards the hardness of heart of those concerned, it is both because they had hardened their heart and because God hardened their heart. This is no different in the case of Pharaoh.
God cannot be complicit in sin; the accusation of that in Matt 12 made Jesus furious.
:eek:

Where in particular in Matt 12 are you referring to?

But when the reader, begins to judge according to his own understanding, that God hardening their heart is evil and not righteous for God to do so, there goes the problem. He finds then the two as contradictory and starts to find a way to remove what contradiction he himself had made. And one of this is apparently is this literary device so called “Semitic view”.

Paul tells us what men does and what God does in Romans 1. Let’s read:

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they arewhisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

Do you see what the people are and what they do?

And do you also see who God is and what He (did) to them?
God giving them over to the wickedness they have chosen does not mean He hardened their hearts INTO that. He simply let them have what they chose.
Do you not see that that is essentially no different when God hardened Pharaoh and Israel? What do you think it means when God give a wicked one over to uncleanness, to dishonor your body among others like him, give one up to vile passion, give one over to a debased mind? And what do you think it means when God hardens a wicked one?

What so you think is the reason why God did what He did to them in Romans 1? Is it not because their heart is off and hard? Have they not hardened their heart with what they have done, since they have a knowledge of God and knows the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death?

Tong
R4671
 

Gadgetere

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Here’s one passage:

John10:26...
Let's read it in context.

10:24 Jews: "If You are the (Messiah), tell us plainly."
25, Jesus answered them, "I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah); the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
16, "But you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (you have not entered through Me, Jn10:9).
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch (harpazo-force) them out of My hand.
29. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (harpazo-force) them out of the Father's hand.

In no sense can this be made to fit any OSAS view. A sheep entered the fold willfully (and became Jesus' sheep); if he willfully leaves is he still Jesus' sheep?

No.

Here’s what Paul said.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Does God love the unsaved, and desire for them to be saved? Yes; so nothing can separate us from His love, even if we disbelieve and perish.
The last two verses in James, I have addressed in the other segments.
For the sake of newcomers, James says that if any among you wander away from the truth, and (if) another leads him back, his soul will be saved (again) and his sins covered (forgiven). One cannot wander away from faith he's never had, nor can he come back to where he never was. James is as OSNAS as can be. See James1:14-16, we can be deceived by sin to spiritual death.

Gadget said:
God neither causes nor removes hardening; each person chooses for himself.

I had addressed this in my other post.
When Scripture says "God-hardens" (like in Ex10:1, when just two verses earlier it says Pharaoh did it to himself), we can't make it into "well they both did it" -- God is incapable of complicity in sin in any measure, He is bound to His perfect righteousness. He has a character and nature, He cannot go against them. Again, Matt12 -- why was Jesus so angry?

Gadget said:
<<<On Rom11 -- it can't mean "nations", it says "natural branches" plural; Israel is only one.>>>

In the illustration the whole trunk of the olive tree represents Israel and the natural branches are Jews. The "wild olive" tree represents the Gentile world. Paul was not speaking of individual salvation here but of God’s program for Jews and Gentiles as groups.
Why wasn't he speaking of "individual salvation"? How else can a "branch be broken off for unbelief, or restored if they do not continue in unbelief"? Why are we-wild-branches-grafted-in "not to be conceited but fear, for WE can be broken off TOO!

If that's not OSNAS, then what is it?

I asked you to consider Hebrews 6:4-6, thinking that you will come to realize one thing and its obvious necessary strong implication. That the truth and situation for the truly and already saved Christian, is that it is impossible for them to be restored to repentance unto Christ again.
Stop -- words written in Greek, must be read in Greek. It's not "impossible" --- it is "adunatos, unable/powerless/impotent. What is the cause of the powerlessness-to-restore-them-to-repentance? Willful sin. That'ts why NASB footnote says "impossible/unable to restore them to repentance WHILE they crucify Christ to themselves anew (by repetitive sin).
Now, obviously this impossible thing only arises IF they fall away.
Again, the Greek does NOT say "IF they fall away" --- it is aorist active participle, their falling away is a fact.
It’s an absolute thing. There is no exception given that goes with this. One cannot say that they can be restored as long as they do this or that.
Doesn't matter what one says or you say or I say, the writer clearly said it was their willful sinfulness that's the problem. The context is 5:11-14 and 6:1-6 --- those who ARE FALLING, are the same ones as described in ch5 as "babes". They walk in sin and unrepentance.
To explain further, take for example, for the sake of illustration, that a truly saved Christian fall away into unbelief, rejecting the gospel and Jesus. When that happens, he could not be restored again to repentance, no matter what.
Not what it says.
There is nothing that he could do to be saved again. That is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying.
Well fine; let's just take a heavy black ink marker and mark out James5:19-20, and many others...

Now, what is the obvious necessary strong implication of that? It is that no truly saved Christian will fall away and be lost.
Sigh.

Now why are there who are said to have fallen away into unbelief, rejecting the gospel and Jesus? Who are they if the truly saved ones can not fall away? Who else, but are the ones who are not of the truly saved ones.
You really think "enlightened", "tasted good word of God and powers of age to come" (exactly the same as "Jesus geuomai-tasted death Heb2:9), "PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit", are "never-truly/actually-saved"?

The writer labors extensively to expose them as WERE saved. The warning of 6:4-6 is the same as 10:26-29 --- if we continue sinning willfully after having (been saved), Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us! Golly, Tong -- why doesn't Heb6:7-8 and 11-12 convince you? We can produce EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be burned; we need diligence to imitate those who by faith and patience inherit the promises.

No offense -- what would it have to say to be clearer?
I call them the nominal Christians ~ those whose faith is not the kind of faith that is of and from God, but that which that is of man. They are the ones who believe that they can by their free will choose to reject the gospel and believe no longer in Jesus Christ. That such choice is real to them and that they can do it should they will to do it so, anytime and for whatever reason; and after falling to unbelief, believes that they can believe again in the gospel and in Jesus. In other words, they are those who believe that they are saved and could by their will, be unsaved and be saved again.
We have to confine our assessments to Scripture; the writer calls them "saved", geuomai-tasted/participated exactly as Jesus tasted/participated in 2:9, and partners in the Spirit. Metochos-partakers/partners is SAVED in 3:1, in 3:14, and in 12:8; it's saved here too.

I sincerely think that the Christian should consider that and ponder on what Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying and teaching.
And we just did -- the Greek forbids "they-weren't-really-saved", and it prohibits "they-didn't-really-fall".

Yes they were, yes they did; they are US if we do not heed the warnings!

What implication you append there to the meaning of “death” or “thanatos” depends in the context. In James 5:19-20, the context does not support that implication.
Ah -- I see! One can be "wandered-away-from-truth but still SAVED", and have "uncovered/unforgiven sins but still be SAVED." (No, he can't...)

I did a search, but got nothing about “Semitic View”. If you can give me a link, that would be nice.
Earlier I included a link to "Anthropomorphism", it's the same. Charging God (or others) for what men do themselves.

You dodged my question. :(
Did not. we enter by free choice, and we can leave by free choice. Look at what you are either dodging or stamping over with "NOT REALLY" (not-really-were-saved, or not-really-fell).

Gadget said:
God does not keep us if we want to leave; that was the purpose of the Prodigal Son story in Lk15. (One who is DEAD, is not "still a son".)
It's the message in Heb3:12-14 (take care BRETHREN lest you be hardened by deceitful sin to an unbelieving heart that falls away from God).
It's the message 2Pet3:17 (do not be carried away by deceitful men and fall from your own steadfastness),
it's the message in Heb4:11 (do not fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating Israel's disobedience and unbelief),
it's the message of 2Jn1:7-9 (watch yourselves against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought, that you may receive the full reward, anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings has not God; he who abides has the Father and the Son).
It's the message of 1Jn2:26-28 (be careful against deceivers, abide in Him so that you not shrink-in-shame when He returns).
It's the message of Col2:6-8 (as you have received Him so walk in Him, being built up and established in faith; see that no one takes you captive according to philosophy and empty deception, according to men's traditions or worldly principles rather than according to Christ).

There are many more like that. What shall we do with all of these to continue in OSAS? Mark them out? Tear out the pages? Stamp them "NOT REALLY"? Or just pretend they aren't there?

They are there. All these verses are lying on the table waving their hands, crying:
"Hey! What about us?!?!"

"THROUGH FAITH", is "HOW", and does not negate my statement.
And we are to BUILD OURSELVES in holy faith, and KEEP OURSELVES in His love (Jd20-21); so again "NO", God does not keep us against our will.

See how many verses must be swept aside to keep OSAS?
 

BloodBought 1953

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“All Those That Believe In Me *ALREADY HAVE* Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation”

I Believe that God will keep His Word....” What is it about” NEVER” that you fail to understand? Nobody has EVER been able to refute this Clear verse....NOBODY . Care to give it a shot?
 

Tong2020

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Let's read it in context.

10:24 Jews: "If You are the (Messiah), tell us plainly."
25, Jesus answered them, "I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah); the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
16, "But you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (you have not entered through Me, Jn10:9).
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch (harpazo-force) them out of My hand.
29. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (harpazo-force) them out of the Father's hand.

In no sense can this be made to fit any OSAS view. A sheep entered the fold willfully (and became Jesus' sheep); if he willfully leaves is he still Jesus' sheep?

No.

<<<16, "But you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (you have not entered through Me, Jn10:9).>>

That you’ve inserted (in bold font) is erroneous. Read carefully who enters through the door (Jesus).

1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.


<<<28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch (harpazo-force) them out of My hand.
29. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (harpazo-force) them out of the Father's hand.>>>


harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away

<<<A sheep entered the fold willfully (and became Jesus' sheep); if he willfully leaves is he still Jesus' sheep?>>>

Read the whole chapter again. There is nothing said about sheep as entered the fold.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Here’s what Paul said.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Does God love the unsaved, and desire for them to be saved? Yes; so nothing can separate us from His love, even if we disbelieve and perish.

You must take that passage in context. The “us” there does not refer to the whole of mankind. So your argument fails.

“separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”

It speaks of the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Those who are NOT in Christ Jesus, are not in view here.

Further let me ask, would you say the unsaved are not separated by the power of death, the second death, or by hell?

Tong
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Pythagorean12

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You must take that passage in context. The “us” there does not refer to the whole of mankind. So your argument fails.

“separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”

It speaks of the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Those who are NOT in Christ Jesus, are not in view here.

Further let me ask, would you say the unsaved are not separated by the power of death, the second death, or by hell?

Tong
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Yes. Us='s God's Elect.
 

Tong2020

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The last two verses in James, I have addressed in the other segments.
For the sake of newcomers, James says that if any among you wander away from the truth, and (if) another leads him back, his soul will be saved (again) and his sins covered (forgiven). One cannot wander away from faith he's never had, nor can he come back to where he never was. James is as OSNAS as can be. See James1:14-16, we can be deceived by sin to spiritual death.

What does “wander” mean?



By the way, you have not address this part:

“in figurative language, may I ask, would you say you have eaten of Jesus’ flesh and have drank of His blood?”

I would appreciate it if you answer mu simple question. Thanks.

Tong
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Taken

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OSAS.... what does this really mean ?
^ OP

Inanutshell....
NO SEPARATION!
NO DIVORCE!
YOKED With the Lord God Almighty Once and IN the Same House forever.

:)
 
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Tong2020

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When Scripture says "God-hardens" (like in Ex10:1, when just two verses earlier it says Pharaoh did it to himself), we can't make it into "well they both did it" -- God is incapable of complicity in sin in any measure, He is bound to His perfect righteousness. He has a character and nature, He cannot go against them. Again, Matt12 -- why was Jesus so angry?
You just repeat yourself here and giving the same argument. So, I will just be repeating myself also. Which I will not be doing.

Tong
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Gadgetere

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No, you and I DO NOT AGREE.

The "SAV-ED"...are the "CONVERT-ED".
They DO NOT "CONTINUE TO SIN".
Look at 1Cor10:13 -- we always have before us the ability to sin; God provides an escape, but it's up to us to take it, or to sin. And then...

...and then, "we always have before us the ability to sin". That's the problem -- it is not the SIN that is the problem, it is the AGAIN. Let's go one verse back, 1Cor10:12 --- all right, we'll start with verse 6 -- do not crave evil things, do not act immorally, do not be idolaters -- all these things Scripturally earn a person condemnation! Verse 1 he's talking to BRETHREN -- unsaved brethren? (No!)

And the key is in verse 12 -- "let he who thinks he stand take HEED lest he FALL! Ohhh, I wonder what he means by "fall". (...do not crave evil, do not be immoral, or idolaters, you BRETHREN do not DO these things!)

Fall.
Crave evil.
Immoral.
Idolaters.
Brethren.

Nope, we can't make it "he's-talking-to-the-never-truly-saved", and we can't make it "he's not really saying we could fall from SALVATION".

(...yes he is...)

Receiving "KNOWLEDGE"...is one thing.
Receiving "SALVATION".....is another thing.
"Catch-22" again; "If they FALL, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place." Where is that again in Scripture? (Not there.)

Let he who thinks he stand take heed lest he fall.

People CAN receive "KNOWLEDGE" and "continue to SIN".
People WHO RECEIVE "SALVATION" "sin NO MORE". 1 John 3:9
Not what it says:
"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us". 1Jn1:8

I said it before and I'll say it again, "all views of OSAS, are nothing other than repeating the First Lie, that Eve was told in the Garden: 'Don't worry, you won't really die!' "

And 2Cor11:3 says we are at the SAME risk of deception away from Jesus by the devil as Eve experienced in the Garden!

OSAS adherents are not recognizing the real danger of sin!
:eek:
 

Gadgetere

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Nominal Christians aren’t saved.

Carnal Christians may be of the true Christians (babes) or of the nominal Christians.
Let's see -- what does "carnal" mean? It means "walking-after-the-flesh", doesn't it? But these could be SAVED? Have you a way to read Rom8:12 ("if we walk after the flesh we must die"), and stamp it "NOT REALLY"?
"Yes"? No; you are proposing that one who is carnal/babes (which by definition means "walking-in-sin"), can BE WITH Jesus. In spite of 1Jn3 which says "no one born of God (practices) sin" -- so you must be proposing a salvation which can be less-than-born-of-God.

Yes? No? Which?

What I was referring to is the condition you add (bold font in your statement).

Gadgetere: All true; yet, if we cease to do good works and turn back to unrighteousness, we perish.

<<<but no OSAS person is willing to interact with verses like Ezk18:24>>>

What is in Ezek.18:24 that you want to point out? I would expect that what it is does not contradict what I said that you said is all true.
No one can be righteous apart from Jesus and salvation, but one who WAS righteous can turn away from it (no way you or I could deny "they have left salvation"). Is there?

Tong: What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?”

Gadgetere: The power of FAITH.
Actually, "the power of faithlessness". Why do you think Jude says "building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in God's love"? Any way he's allowing that we can NOT move-out-of-His-love?

What was Jude saying?

Sure about that? Are you saying that one who was created anew by God in Christ Jesus uses the power of faith to undo the work of God in him, that is, his creating him anew? That’s weird I have to say.
We are new creations; but then why does Scripture say (in Eph4 and Col3) to "lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new righteous one"? It's almost as if we have to do that every day, isn't it?

(Almost?)

Gadget said:
"Eternal salvation" ...is what is in view in James5:19-20, 1Tim4:1, Heb4:11, 2Cor11:3, and many, MANY others.
Yes. But why I pointed the many other salvation, is because in scriptures, not every time we read the word “save” refers to salvation unto eternal life.
Let's review the verses:
James5:19-20 -- return from "falling-away-from-the-truth", and sins re-covered
1Tim4:1 -- demons can deceive many away from the faith
Heb4:11 -- do not imitate Israel's disobedience & unbelief and fall and fail to enter God's rest
2Cor11:3 -- just like Eve was deceived by satan, we can be led astray from Jesus

Lk15:11-32 the Prodigal abandoned his father and was "dead", until he returned
Heb3:12-14 -- brethren can be hardened by sin to falling away from God!
2Pet3:17 -- do not be deceived and fall from your own steadfastness
2Jn1:7-9 -- guard against deceivers, if you go too far and leave the teachings you don't have Jesus!
1Jn2:26-28 -- guard against deceivers, abide in Him to not shrink-in-shame at His return
Col2:6-8 -- walk in Jesus, guard your faith; do not be deceived away from Christ

Okay --- WHICH of those is not "osnas"?

Well, I already defined my use of nominal Christian. And what I take a carnal Christian is. Whatever it is for you, just know what I meant when I use nominal Christian and carnal Christian in my posts.
Neither is saved; and by the verses you and I have been reading, any of them COULD have BEEN saved.

What will happen to us if we are not admonishedly diligent? "Take care, lest anyone steal your crown!"

Any way that is not the crown of life? (Rev3:11)