OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Gadgetere]

My point as well.

Don't think Salvation IS Belief.
Moreso, Belief is required to receive Salvation.

Salvation is a union between Creator (Jesus), and creature (you and me). Rm6:5 "sumphutos", united, joined, grown-together.

Addressed that. We guess, presume. Only the individual and the Lord God knows an individuals Heart's beliefs.

I'm simply saying that virtually unanimously OSAS proponents employ the Catch 22:

CATCH 22:
If they're unsaved NOW, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place."​

And all I said was that in verses like Lk8:13, there is nothing in the wording to prohibit those who fell, from having been saved.

This is written to truly saved brothers. Second, blatantly painted with clear words, we can be "deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God. Third, the context says we are partners IN Christ, fully conditionally -- "IF we CONTINUE in the faith ...and not be moved away from (Jesus)."

Addressed that. In brief, IF the Power of God is "NOT" IN" a man, he has the possibility of falling away. IF the Power of God "IS" "IN" a man, NO, the man can NEVER fall away.

What verse says that? Letter, chapter and verse?

There IS, rightly dividing the Word of TRUTH.
Applying Scripture which rightly APPLIES.
NOT APPLIYING Scripture that does NOT Apply.

Go for it -- I'm citing precise verses, what are your answers?

So a person can continue practicing sin and God "paints it over" and ignores it?

I said no such thing.

Didn't you say that ALL sins are forgiven, past and future? Did I misunderstand?

Suppose I prayed to God: "God, forgive me for the man I killed yesterday; and the one I'm gonna kill tomorrow!" Will He forgive me?

Did you NOT pay attention to the word...
THEREAFTER...speaking of Conversion IN Christ?

Do you not comprehend Scripture "IN CONTEXT" ?
*1 Cor 1:2 begins acknowledging those at the church at Cornith....WHO "ARE" sancified.
* 1 Cor 3:3 acknowledges those at the church at Cornith .... WHO "ARE" still in conflict. Hearing the Word, but Walking CARNAL MINDED.

"Carnal" is addressed in passages like Heb5:11-6:6; those who are carnal, it is impossible/powerless to restore them to repentance because of their willful sin.

...there is no such thing as "an unrepentant saved Christian".

Obviously BOTH DOES NOT APPLY to the same individual.

American Council of Catholic Bishops asserts a subject change between Heb5:14, and 6:1; there is no such subject change. "Carnal", are the same who "have fallen away", 6:4. So don't waste your time preaching repentance to those who don't want to.

You are not qualified to decide what in Scripture DOES and DOES NOT APPLY to me.

I ask forgiveness for offending you.

And if you ARE Sanctified, you should learn what in Scripture DOES and DOES NOT APPLY to you, and WHY.
"Rightly divide the Word of Truth".

Look at the man in Heb10:29 --- he was sanctified, but now scorns Jesus' blood that once sanctified him (and tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit). Is he still saved?

People are not SAVED and then "UNSAVED".

What is your understanding of Rom11:18-23?

If a person says they believe and are saved....okay.
If it be discovered they currently say they do not BELIEVE IN GOD....duh!
You seriously think the All knowing God was TRiCKED and Saved their soul?
THEY LIED! And no a person who Openly rejects God IS NOT SAVED....!
IF and WHEN you discover such a TRUTH...
They are a spiritual enemy...be cautious.

Some "truly-saved-people", can become "severed from Christ and fallen from grace". Any way to mark out Gal3:3, 4:9, 5:7, and especially 5:4?

May we discuss Jn3:18-21? Those who do evil avoid the light lest their evil deeds be exposed; but those who practice righteousness come to the light that their deeds may be seen as wrought in God.

No. Discussion with you is apparent you are without understanding, or ability to rightly Divide the Word of Truth, and expect an explanation from me for things you say, but pretend it is what I said.

Don't engage in "ad-hominem", interact with the verses. To do otherwise is to admit "the verses don't support what I'm saying".

 

[Taken]

Jesus said, "You are PETER (little stone!), and upon this ROCK (petra-bedrock, Jesus Himself!) I will build My church." No other foundation can be laid.

Jesus chose 12 disciples. Two of them were names Simon. Jesus gave one of the Simon's (who was the son of Jona, the surname Peter.)

Jesus asked His disciples WHO people were saying HE (Jesus) IS.
Jesus then asked His disciples WHO His disciples SAY HE (Jesus) IS.

God in Heaven, GAVE the ANSWER TO:
Simon, son of Jona. (Aka Simon Peter).
Peter then spoke the Answer to Jesus, as to WHO Jesus IS.
"You are the Christ the Son of the Living God".
Jesus replied TO: Simon Barjona (Simon, son of Jonas)...that he did NOT receive the answer from flesh and blood.
Jesus further replied; THAT is what JESUS WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH UPON...

Upon PETER? No. Jesus is building His Church UPON the ANSWER to the QUESTION He asked....
Jesus IS the Christ the Son of the Living God
WHICH IS: BTW, is a Statement of Belief for every valid established Christian church.
CHRIST IS the Cornerstone, Head, ROCK of His Church.
The Disciples were the first to be included, thus called along with Christ the foundation.
(You have fallen for Catholic teaching, that Peter is the rock of Christ's Church.)

1 Cor 10:
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Gadgetere]

RC Sproul explained it the best.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/can-christian-lose-their-salvation

RC Sproul is hardly an expert on Scripture. I have his book, "Chosen by God". He makes the exact same mistakes as every other Calvinist. (See "The Sovereignty of God" by Pink!)

Sproul says on 1Cor2:14, "natural men cannot understand spiritual things, so God has to give the understanding first only then can they (and will irresistibly!) believe and be saved."

Really, RC? There is one subject in 1Cor2:9-11.
9. "Things"
10. "Them"
11. "Thoughts-of-God"
12. "Things"
13. "Things"
14. "Things"

What about verse 12? "We have received ...the Spirit of God that we may know the things freely given by God."

(Continues in verse 13, things taught not by Human words and Human understanding, but taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words)

Wait! We have to receive the Spirit BEFORE and in order to GET the things in verse 14? Yes! And there is only one "lambano-receive-the-Spirit", it's after belief (Acts11:15-17), and it's PART OF SALVATION. We have to believe in Jesus and be saved, and receive the Spirit, only then does He teach us the THINGS! All verse 14 teaches is that natural men HAVE not believed, in no way does it indent that they CANNOT. Verse 12 makes fourteen solidly "non-predestined-salvation" forever, it is not arguable or deniable. And all of the other "57+ secondaries" are refuted with the same veracity, allowing the four "primaries" (Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, Rom9:11-21) to be exposed as non-predestination.

And there is Sproul saying "You have to get the things first (sovereignly, monergistically from God!) and only THEN can you believe and be saved!"

Oops. The rest of his book is the same. As I said, 61+ verses are held in RT's arms; and every one must be proven non-predestined before your RT brother is impressed. It is a superior elevated "have-arrived" position. So sure is he, as long as he holds ANY of the sixty-ish verses, he will "shake the dust from his feet" and stomp away from the discussions!

So Sproul, Pink, White, Piper, McArthur, Gill, they do not have credibility.

 

[Gadgetere]

Jesus chose 12 disciples. Two of them were names Simon. Jesus gave one of the Simon's (who was the son of Jona, the surname Peter.)

Jesus asked His disciples WHO people were saying HE (Jesus) IS.
Jesus then asked His disciples WHO His disciples SAY HE (Jesus) IS.

God in Heaven, GAVE the ANSWER TO:
Simon, son of Jona. (Aka Simon Peter).
Peter then spoke the Answer to Jesus, as to WHO Jesus IS.
"You are the Christ the Son of the Living God".
Jesus replied TO: Simon Barjona (Simon, son of Jonas)...that he did NOT receive the answer from flesh and blood.
Jesus further replied; THAT is what JESUS WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH UPON...

Upon PETER? No. Jesus is building His Church UPON the ANSWER to the QUESTION He asked....
Jesus IS the Christ the Son of the Living God
WHICH IS: BTW, is a Statement of Belief for every valid established Christian church.
CHRIST IS the Cornerstone, Head, ROCK of His Church.
The Disciples were the first to be included, thus called along with Christ the foundation.
(You have fallen for Catholic teaching, that Peter is the rock of Christ's Church.)

1 Cor 10:
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

I clearly said "Peter" was "petros", little-stone; and "Petra" bedrock (Jesus!) is that upon which Jesus builds. No other foundation can be laid, except Jesus.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

RC Sproul is hardly an expert on Scripture. I have his book, "Chosen by God". He makes the exact same mistakes as every other Calvinist. (See "The Sovereignty of God" by Pink!)

Sproul says on 1Cor2:14, "natural men cannot understand spiritual things, so God has to give the understanding first only then can they (and will irresistibly!) believe and be saved."

Really, RC? There is one subject in 1Cor2:9-11.
9. "Things"
10. "Them"
11. "Thoughts-of-God"
12. "Things"
13. "Things"
14. "Things"

What about verse 12? "We have received ...the Spirit of God that we may know the things freely given by God."

(Continues in verse 13, things taught not by Human words and Human understanding, but taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words)

Wait! We have to receive the Spirit BEFORE and in order to GET the things in verse 14? Yes! And there is only one "lambano-receive-the-Spirit", it's after belief (Acts11:15-17), and it's PART OF SALVATION. We have to believe in Jesus and be saved, and receive the Spirit, only then does He teach us the THINGS! All verse 14 teaches is that natural men HAVE not believed, in no way does it indent that they CANNOT. Verse 12 makes fourteen solidly "non-predestined-salvation" forever, it is not arguable or deniable. And all of the other "57+ secondaries" are refuted with the same veracity, allowing the four "primaries" (Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, Rom9:11-21) to be exposed as non-predestination.

And there is Sproul saying "You have to get the things first (sovereignly, monergistically from God!) and only THEN can you believe and be saved!"

Oops. The rest of his book is the same. As I said, 61+ verses are held in RT's arms; and every one must be proven non-predestined before your RT brother is impressed. It is a superior elevated "have-arrived" position. So sure is he, as long as he holds ANY of the sixty-ish verses, he will "shake the dust from his feet" and stomp away from the discussions!

So Sproul, Pink, White, Piper, McArthur, Gill, they do not have credibility.

wow, no credibility??? Ever since i have joined this forum, all i’ve seen is one false teaching after another. Im a 5 pt calvinist presbyterian, and i think im the only one on this forum. I regret joining this forum. I’ll just stick with the puritan boards.

 

[Taken]

Gadgetger -

You do not believe, what you do not understand.

*Salvation is a GIFT.
*The GIFT was paid for for BY JESUS.
*The PAYMENT (by Jesus) WAS a PAYMNET He made ONCE, and IS sufficient for ALL WHO "ELECT" to Accept His Gift.
* Understand that? ^^
* The GIFT (Jesus paid for), Was OFFERED TO: ...........
ALL LIVING EARTHLY PERSONS
* Understand that?
* Yours, mine, Mary, Matthew, Paul, .... EVERY PERSON... Has a GIFT, already PAID FOR...
* IT IS A CONDITIONAL GIFT!!!
* You have to willingly, assuredly, freely, heartfully, AGREE to accept HIS GIFT, "before you can receive His gift"!
* Understand that?
ONCE YOU, (according to the Conditions...called The Lords "WAY"), willingly, assuredly, freely heartfully AGREE to accept HIS GIFT....YOU Receive His GIFT ONCE...and FOREVER that GIFT is yours, and KEPT unto YOU forever.....BY the POWER OF GOD "IN" YOU.
* Undestand that?

IF you do NOT RECEIVE the Lords OFFERED GIFT, (according to the Lords WAY)..."WITH.... IN " you.... gee...guess what...YOU FORFEIT, LOSE the GIFT, that was PAID FOR FOR YOU.

THAT GIFT, Becomes VOID, IF YOU DO NOT, accept that gift BEFORE you physically DIE.
Physically dead body's know nothing, do nothing....

There are umpteen WARNINGS... paraphrasing.....Hey...don't you know, you do not know the hour your body will die? If you body dies before you Accept Jesus Gift offering....You missed out on receiving Jesus Gift of Salvation!
Hey....don't you know....many believe, say they believe, then deny, then say they believe, then deny.....SO WHAT?
Minds think, mouths blabber, minds change their thought, mouths blabber.
(What does THAT ^ have to do with A HEARTFUL CONFESSION of BELIEF? )
Nothing.
* HOW DO YOU KNOW, IF a man IS CONVERTED....ie HAS Accepted Jesus Offered Gift of Salvation (according to His WAY).
* You can observe their WORKS to glorify God.
* But you do not KNOW what they do privately.
* ONE THING FOR SURE IS....a man WHO HAS accepted the Lords Gift of Salvation (according to His WAY).... THEREAFTER can NEVER AGAIN DENY God or Christ Jesus. Which IS TO SAY, that man can NEVER AGAIN commit the SIN of disbelief AGAINST the Lord GOD.
* Can't speak for you, nor believe what you preach...
* Once a man IS Saved, IT IS THE INTERNAL POWER OF GOD, that KEEPS that man SAVED.
* there is not ONE Scripture that speaks of BEING SAVED, and then BECOMING 'UNSAVED".
* All the Warnings ARE FOR those who HAVE NOT....willfully, freely, assuredly, heartfully commited their BELIEF IN the Lord God.
* Rightly Divide the Word of God.
....All Scripture is TRUE...NOT ALL SCRIPTURE APPLIES TO EVERY PERSON.

 

[Taken]

I clearly said "Peter" was "petros", little-stone; and "Petra" bedrock (Jesus!) is that upon which Jesus builds. No other foundation can be laid, except Jesus.

I was specific...Jesus is building "HIS CHURCH" upon...
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God".

in perspective...Peter, Mark, John, Matthew, Luke, and every person ADDED TO JESUS' Church, is AS A stone upon stone of the Rock, who IS Christ.

 

[Truman]

"As a guy read John 3:16 to me, I 'saw' somewhere else. I saw a closed set of drapes about 2 feet in front of me. A hand that was holding a sword thrust through the drapes and plunged the sword deep into my belly!"
I instantly believed it and have never stopped believing it since. It happened in 1973.
I never walked consistently with the Lord until I met my Father's heart "in the Spirit" in 1994.
That's my testimony. Make of it what you will.

 

[Tong2020]

Jesus' point is that apart from Him men cannot be righteous. Isaiah says our own righteousness is as filthy rags (the actual Hebrew is far worse).

"Salvation" is considerably more than "belief". Jesus said in Jn17:3, "Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing (Me)." John conspicuously used "ginosko", intimate husband/wife knowledge.

Scripture says different. Consider only Heb3 -- first it's written to holy brethren partners in a heavenly calling -- in no sense can we perceive them as "NOT REALLY saved". This is written to truly saved brothers. Second, blatantly painted with clear words, we can be "deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God. Third, the context says we are partners IN Christ, fully conditionally -- "IF we CONTINUE in the faith ...and not be moved away from (Jesus)."

There is no defense, or alternate interpretation.
So a person can continue practicing sin and God "paints it over" and ignores it? That conflicts 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, James1:14-16, and many others. What good is a doctrine that requires us to mark out or ignore "God-inspired-verses"?

The context of the verse I was asking about, is "saved brothers" who move to unsalvation.

There is nothing in the verses which permits us to believe they were NEVER saved. We must stop writing words into Scripture.

Some read John10:26-28, "no one NOT EVEN YOURSELVES can separate you from God's love". The caps are written-in, not there. Some read 1Jn2:19 "they were NEVER of us" --- and again the caps "never" just isn't there; the statement fully permits them to have been saved once, even yesterday.

Be sure of what? Peter says in 2:1:5-11 to make our ELECTION (salvation!) bebaios-steadfast/stable/firm.

You're writing external ideas into the verses. They are IN CHRIST in Heb3:12-14; it's saved people in 2Pet15-11. They were "saved" in 2Pet2:20-22. It's addressing the saved in 1Tim4:16. I can give you dozens -- how many will convince you?

I'm sorry, 1Jn3 is clear --- he who practices sin will not have his sin overlooked, he 100% does not know God; only those who practice righteousness are righteous.

May we discuss Jn3:18-21? Those who do evil avoid the light lest their evil deeds be exposed; but those who practice righteousness come to the light that their deeds may be seen as wrought in God.

Just want to throw in some thoughts.

I find the idea that God saves people only to lose them again as not found in scriptures.

I find the idea that saved people by God would want to get unsaved as not found in scriptures.

Tong
R4643

 

[Gadgetere]

wow, no credibility???

Why did I say that, Lifelong? Because of what Sproul said about 1Cor2:14.

Ever since i have joined this forum, all i’ve seen is one false teaching after another.

You're facing a choice -- Calvinism/Reformed Theology founds on at least 61 verses, four "foundation" ones (Primaries), fifty seven "Secondaries" (the walls and roof). You and I just pulled out the first brick -- Sproul says "you have to get the things first, only then can you believe and be saved." But Paul said in verse 12 we have to believe and be saved and receive the Spirit, only then can we get the things! Is there any way to make the "things" of verse 14, different than the "things" of verse 12? How?

So here is your choice -- Proverbs says "wise is he who listens to counsel"; someone just showed you 1Cor2:14 is NOT "sovereign predestination". Do you have any way to deny that? How? If you can't deny it, and if you "walk away and refuse to discard what Calvinists like Sproul and Pink said", that is the same as telling God "Sorry I reject what You inspired, I'm keeping my own doctrine."

If you stay -- we can look at any verses you want. John6:37, 39, 44, 65? Jn10:26-28? Jn12:40? Acts13:48? 2Cor43-4? Or will you reject God's Scripture in spite of the possibility of that doctrine conflicting God's teaching?

Im a 5 pt calvinist presbyterian, and i think im the only one on this forum. I regret joining this forum. I’ll just stick with the puritan boards.

As I said, Sovereign Predestined Salvation is a "superior/matured/elevated position" -- as long as an RT has ANY verses left in his arms, he has no interest in reconsidering the position. Sixty-one-verses -- do you admit that 1Cor2:14 is gone, forever? That we must "lambano-receive-the-Spirit IN ORDER TO get the things of 14", exactly opposite to what Sproul teaches?

You can "go away back to Calvinist forums" and refuse sound teaching like you just read. But will God be pleased in the end?

"All Scripture is inspired by God, and suitable for reproof, correction training, equipping saints for every righteous deed" (from memory). There is a hole now in the structure where 1Cor2:14 used to be; aren't you interested in whether or not the other bricks "fit"?

What's important to you, Lifelong?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Granting, for the sake of argument, the Christian, while is saved, has no assurance from Jesus Christ that he cannot be unsaved, how do you answer the questions:

1. How will he be unsaved?

May I reply? James said "we are tempted with enticed and led astray by our own lusts. Lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death -- do not be deceived beloved brethren."

Hebrews3 says we can be deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God. 1Tim4:1 says we can be deceived away from the faith by deceit and doctrines of demons. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17 and others say we can be deceived by worldly men

Goodness, 2Cor11:3 says we're at the SAME risk of being deceived away from Christ, as when satan deceived Eve in the Garden! Why won't people believe the verses?'

Of course you may, by all means.

That would be a concern by one who believes that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd is not able to keep him and protect him. That would be a concern if one erroneously believe that his salvation or as some put it, remaining to be saved, is on his shoulders and depends on him.

2. If he be unsaved, can he be saved again?

Absolutely -- please read Rom11:18-23 and tell what you think? "If they do not continue in unbelief God will graft them in again"?

That is referring to the nation of Israel, having been hardened. Having been hardened, that should tell us how it is with them, unless God takes off the hardening. I don’t find the passage as addressing the question.

Consider Hebrews 6:4-6.

3. If he be unsaved and can be saved again, how can he be saved again?

James says in the last two verses (5:19-20), if they turn back from the error of their way" --- if they return to Jesus.

What's the difference between "walking-in-sin", and "disbelief in Jesus"? Nothing. They are the same...

May I ask, what do you take the “death” to be in James 5:19-20?

4. In #1, was the work Christ for him been wasted? Had Christ failed to keep him?

What do you think about 1Tim3:5 and Gal4:11? "In vain", means "wasted"! How about Philip2:16?

1Tim3:5 is about a bishop, Gal4:11 and Phil.2:16 is about Paul’s labor. So none of those answers the question.

And may I ask, you don’t believe that Christ would not let His work and precious blood wasted in any way, shape, or form, or do you? I don’t think you believe and would believe He would.

5. in #3, since this is a getting saved matter yet again, how is the work of Jesus part of this? Is Jesus part of this salvation again? If so, how is he saved by Jesus?

I look forward to your thoughts on these verses, especially like Rom11.

"...do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.​

Any way to make these verses not say what they say?

Not getting into discussing Romans 11, I would just say that it does not address the question. See my comments under question #2 above.

Tong
R4644

 

[Gadgetere]

That is referring to the nation of Israel, having been hardened. Having been hardened, that should tell us how it is with them, unless God takes off the hardening. I don’t find the passage as addressing the question.

Who does the hardening?

 

[Gadgetere]

We can look at any verses you want. John6:37, 39, 44, 65? Jn10:26-28? Jn12:40? Acts13:48? 2Cor43-4? Or will you reject God's Scripture in spite of the possibility of that doctrine conflicting God's teaching?

Acts 13:48 is a powerful "Sovereign-Predestination" verse, some think it is a "primary" (foundation) verse.

"As many as were ordained by God to eternal life, believed."​

How does that not clearly state "God ordains the few elect to salvation"?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not exactly. A carnal Christian may be a true Christian, but still as babes. They may be thought of by others as nominal Christians because of that. But that does not make them to be one.

There is no such thing as a "carnal" Christian, or a "nominal" one. We either belong to Jesus completely, or not at all. Gal2:20 is not a "hopeful some day ideal", it is central and critical to what Jesus accomplished.

There are nominal Christians ~ Christians only in name. You will soon realize that, I hope.

Yes, it’s either a person belongs to Christ or not. A nominal Christian does not and a true Christian does.

<<<Where do "works" fit into this?>>>

Nowhere before the point in time of one’s salvation. Only after one is created anew by God in Christ Jesus, do works enter the picture. That is after one had already been saved, even created anew, so as then no longer is of the former creation he was in Adam, but a new creature in Christ.

All true; yet, if we cease to do good works and turn back to unrighteousness, we perish. Ezk18:24.

If you say that what I said is all true, why do you add a condition as seems to run contrary to that?

And it is either one had been created anew or not.

The question really is, could one who had been created anew by God in Christ Jesus, now a new creature in Christ, undo what God had done for him and to him? If some believes he can, how will he do that, if at all he can? What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?

Yes. Please see my previous post.

If it is not so much to ask, can you state your answer here to my question “What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?”

<<<So such a person is not saved.>>>
Yes, he is not saved unto eternal life. Though he is sort of saved in some other sense.

What other sense? There is only one salvation before God in Christ.

There is salvation unto eternal life. There is salvation from physical death, from sickness, from pain, from evil men, from as many as there are evil things.

<<<No way to tell if he ever was;>>>

Yes. For we know not what’s in the heart of man or what is inside of a man. Only God knows. But that is not the issue in this subject. Rather, it is defining what a nominal Christian is, that is, he is one who is not a true believer, but one who is a Christian in name only. As such, he is one who is not saved.

I meant, that in verses like 1Jn2:19, Lk8:13, there is no cause to contend "they were NEVER saved". Those in 1Jn2:19 could have been saved (even yesterday!), those in Lk8:13 certainly were; only volitional perseverance made the difference.

As I said, it is defining what a nominal Christian is, that is, he is one who is not a true believer, but one who is a Christian in name only. It is not about telling whether one is saved or not at this segment of our discussion. So don’t get confused and mix up issues. I was addressing your question “what is a nominal Christian”, remember? We can discuss that as another segment if you like.

Tong
R4645

 

[Tong2020]

There is not one kind of faith, but two. One that is of God and the other that is of man. The former being with the power of God, the latter with the power of man.

Let me just say something about the two. The latter is in a few words, is “to see is to believe” and rest on his human abilities. The former is one that comes from and is given by God. It becomes one’s, him to whom it was given.

Please show me where faith is given to men by God? It's not in Rm12:3, that is a literary device called "Semitic View". (Did God harden Pharaoh's heart, Ex10:1? No; Pharaoh did it himself Ex9:34, 1Sam6:6; the device ascribes to God or others what men do themselves. See 2Cor4:3-4 [the devil veils their eyes lest they believe and be saved], but with 2Cor3:16 [they turn to God and THEN the veil is removed!].)

Scriptures is clear concerning the faith that is of God, that it comes to man. And if it comes to man, we coils only understand that it is not with man to begin with. And for man to have it, is for God to give.

The question now is How does this faith come to man? According to Paul, it is from hearing. Hearing what? Hearing the word of God.(Rom.10:17)

While it is to the mind of most, the man is him who makes the choice or that it is about making a choice, it is God who works it out in and on the man to freely and willingly make such a choice.

That sounds like the sub-doctrine, "Compatibilism". That seeks to connect God's sovereignty, with man's free will. "Men freely choose, but only according to their nature; if left in sin the ONLY (but freely) choose to disbelieve, if sovereignly regenerated they ONLY (but freely) choose to believe."

A will that can only choose one path, is not free.

I don’t know that compatibilism you say there. So, I can’t say anything about that. Besides, whatever it is, I am talking about that nor make reference to it.

<<<A will that can only choose one path, is not free.>>>

I am not really talking about free will of man, but about how God saves. Whether that turns out in man’s view as unacceptable or unreasonable according to their thinking, does not change the truth that scriptures says about God’s working of His saving a person.

But I would even go far as to say that, in the working of that by God, what happens is not really making a choice nor is about making a choice, but is about conversion.

Of course. When I say my view or your view, I mean to say is how you understand what scriptures says, as you read and study the word of God

So, let me take you back to my question, but in a rephrased form: do you agree that a true believer is is one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus? If not, can you tell me what a true believer is based on your understanding of scriptures concerning that?

Actually, no. A "true believer" is one who believes Jesus, RECEIVES the Son and the Spirit, indwelling presence, and begins a lifelong walk with them. What does Col2:6-8 mean to you? Gal2:26?

1Jn5:11-13 says "he who HAS the Son has eternal life" -- Greek is "echo-grasp/possess". He who possess Jesus. What do you think of Jn17:3?

<<<A "true believer" is one who believes Jesus, RECEIVES the Son and the Spirit, indwelling presence, and begins a lifelong walk with them. >>>

Defining what a true believer is, is describing his “believing”; and the condition of his heart, for it is with the heart that one believes, would you agree? That is why, in my definition of what a true believer is, I described it like so “one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus?”

Having said that, I would say that your definition is quite lacking, in comparison. No offense meant.

What a true believer is expected to do or live his life on earth is another matter.

<<<can one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast?>>>

Steadfast:

adjective
stead·fast
| \ ˈsted-ˌfast , also -fəst \
Collegiate Definition

• 1a: firmly fixed in place :IMMOVABLE
  b: not subject to change
  the steadfast doctrine of original sin — Ellen Glasgow
• 2: firm in belief, determination, or adherence : LOYALher followers have remained steadfast

I'm more interested in the Greek "bebaios" -- stable, firm.

Strong's Concordance
bebaios: firm, secure
Original Word: βέβαιος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: bebaios
Phonetic Spelling: (beb'-ah-yos)
Definition: firm, secure
Usage: firm, steadfast, enduring, sure, certain.

Either way, that is my answer to your question “an one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast?>>>

Please take notice that, I am talking about the faith of one who is a true believer, which faith I said among others, is firm and steadfast. Your question concerning being steadfast is about the person, not the faith, which make it out of focus. So I find the question as missing the point.

"Faith-to-salvation" comes from the person, it is each person who chooses to be steadfast or not. See 1Tim4:16.

1 Tim. 4:16 is an exhortation or encouragement to the professing Christian.

16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

I don’t see anything there that speaks about the choosing of being steadfast or not, at least not about the faith that he have, but on the doctrines referred in the contexts.

Besides, it is not as though one can take the last part of the verse as though continuing in the doctrines saves a person, more so is foolishness, when that person is already saved.

Tong
R4646

 

[Tong2020]

Who does the hardening?

Romans 11:8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Who do you read there as the one who hardens?

Tong
R4647

 

[Taken]

Salvation is a union between Creator (Jesus), and creature (you and me). Rm6:5 "sumphutos", united, joined, grown-together.

Yes. A heartfully committed union.
Kept, by the Power of God.

I'm simply saying that virtually unanimously OSAS proponents employ the Catch 22:

CATCH 22:
If they're unsaved NOW, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place." ​

Not a CATCH 22. Rather a conclusion.

And all I said was that in verses like Lk8:13, there is nothing in the wording to prohibit those who fell, from having been saved.

Luke 8:13 is not about a man HAVING BEEN SAVED. It is expressly about a man HAVING HEARD, Believed, then FELL AWAY.

Luke 8:13
[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

What verse says that? Letter, chapter and verse?

It's a study of a combination of Scriptures...
Briefly: OT, repeatedly God was WITH men "when" men were WITH God...
NT, repeatedly God was WiTH Jews "when" they were WITH God.
The NEW Covenant Offered men the POWER of God "IN" THEM, that God would be "WITH' them always....WHEN would that BE POSSIBLE? Conversion! Accepting the Gift of Salvation Jesus Offered.

Rom 8:

1. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
2. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
3. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Go for it -- I'm citing precise verses, what are your answers?

My answer is I will not study for you, nor can I understand for you.

Didn't you say that ALL sins are forgiven, past and future? Did I misunderstand?

No, I did not say that.

Suppose I prayed to God: "God, forgive me for the man I killed yesterday; and the one I'm gonna kill tomorrow!" Will He forgive me?

* Why would you ASK GOD to forgive you FOR YOUR Trespass Against another man?

I ask forgiveness for offending you.

No need, you did not offend me.

Look at the man in Heb10:29 --- he was sanctified, but now scorns Jesus' blood that once sanctified him (and tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit). Is he still saved?

Yes, that person is STILL SAVED.
IN CONTEXT...Jews traditionally Sacrificed Animals for Forgiveness of SIN.
IN CONTEXT...Jews who accepted the BLOOD of Jesus and Jesus' Salvation, AND "continued" Traditions of "ANIMAL BLOOD sacrifices"....were being TAUGHT...(Animal BLOOD was NO LONGER necessary) and THAT "continuance"...(of Animal Blood Sacrifices) is Disparaging to JESUS' BLOOD Sacrifice ...and to "CONTINUE"...Punishment would be exacted upon them.

Heb 10:29
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Continue Studying, and discover the "punishment"...
The "punishment"...IS NOT becoming "UNSAVED".

 

[marks]

One passage does not overturn another; we must pursue understanding which includes them all. I know you agree with this...

And the ambiguous should be understood by the unambiguous, yes?

Much love!

 

[Gadgetere]

Who does the hardening?

Romans 11:8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Who do you read there as the one who hardens?

Excellent, thank you. We must understand where each other is before we can have a dialog; you or I may presume an explanation suffices for some question, but if the other has a different perspective then the explanation won't make sense.

First let's establish a literary device that was used in the Old Testament, and persisted into the new. Let's read Exodus 10:1: "God said to Moses, 'I have hardened (Pharaoh's) heart and the heart of his servants'." Really? Perfect God, perfectly righteous, in Whom there is no sin, wrought sin into Pharaoh?

Two verses earlier: Ex9:34 "When Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses."

Wait -- both can't be true, either God did it, or Pharaoh did it! Who actually did the hardening?

1Sam6:6 "Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts?"​

The "literary device", is called Semitic View. It ascribes to God (or others) things men do themselves. God did not harden Pharaoh's heart, Pharaoh did it himself; and no one of OT or NT bent thought God actually did it.

Now you cite Rom11:8, which exactly like Jn12:40 cites Isaiah 6:9-10:

He said, "Go, and tell this people:
'Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.'
"Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed."​

Does God really do that? Jesus has already answered -- also quoting Isaiah 6, Jesus says:

Matt13:15-16 "FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."​

There it is -- Jesus blatantly said they close their OWN eyes and ears! 100% "Semitic View", God does not do it!

Focus on "blessed are your ...ears because they hear", and connect that with verses like Lk8:18, "take care how you listen". We decide to open our eyes and ears and see and listen, don't we? Or we decide to close ourselves off from eternity. We are the one who makes the choice.

Note well that several of these verses are "Secondaries" in the doctrine of Calvinism/Reformed-Theology, and "Semitic View" exposes that God does not cause sin; men do it themselves. Here is another "Secondary", embodying Semitic View:

2Cor4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."​

Does the devil have the power to shut off men without their permission? No. Let's read one chapter earlier:

2Cor3:14-16 "But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.​

Can anyone deny it? Calvinists (like Sproul) read 1Cor4:3-4 (another of the 57 Secondaries!), and think, "Oh hey, their minds are hardened and their eyes veiled! God has to remove the veil and open their eyes BEFORE and IN ORDER FOR them to see believe and be saved!" But in ch3 Paul plainly says men can and do turn to God and THEN the veil is removed! It is 100% "Semitic View". The whole bit about "IT IS REMOVED IN CHRIST", openly works only if our faith is voluntary!

That device is used in many verses; for instance, Rom12:3:

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.​

God does not "give faith" to men, faith is required FROM men. You remember Heb11:6, "without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." In Acts17:26-31 God commands all men everywhere to repent; the greatest commandment (Matt22:37) is for us to love God. If "faith" was something God capriciously gives to certain people, then those commands would make Him an idiot. Or a fraud. Rom12:3 is "Semitic View", just another way of saying, "As much faith as each person has".

Can anyone deny anything said here? Is God complicit in man's sin and wickedness? (Remember how furious Jesus was at that suggestion in Matt12:24-32?)

Who do you read there as the one who hardens?

Now I'm sure you see that just because a passage might say "God-closed-their-hearts-and-eyes", it is indisputable when Jesus explained "they really did it to themselves". Look on the internet for "Semitic View", it's real and valid...

 

[Gadgetere]

Of course you may, by all means.

:hug:

That would be a concern by one who believes that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd is not able to keep him and protect him. That would be a concern if one erroneously believes that his salvation or as some put it, remaining to be saved, is on his shoulders and depends on him.

I've given you many verses that plainly say "receive as the outcome of your faith salvation", "he who endures to the end will be saved", "by your endurance gain your souls", "if you continue in the faith firm and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus)" -- can you cite any verses that say "God guarantees we will remain saved"?

What about the last two verses in James?

That is referring to the nation of Israel, having been hardened. Having been hardened, that should tell us how it is with them, unless God takes off the hardening. I don’t find the passage as addressing the question.

As we just established, God neither causes nor removes hardening; each person chooses for himself. On Rom11 -- it can't mean "nations", it says "natural branches" plural; Israel is only one. "They will be grafted in again" --- if "they" is not individuals, then how could members of a nation be grafted in again if they cease unbelieving, unless it's an individual thing? Is it REALLY saying "Oh it's across generations; individuals cannot fall or return, but yer KIDS! Somethin's gotta be done about yer KIDS!"

The message is "branches", individual Jews; audience is single Gentile listeners, "if you A wild BRANCH", single.

Consider Hebrews 6:4-6.

Exactly -- in the CASE of those who WERE SAVED, but are falling away. it is impossible/powerless to restore them to repentance WHILE (nasb footnote) they contempt His grace by their willful sin.

Can't make them "twern't-really-saved", and can't make them "didn't-really-fall".

May I ask, what do you take the “death” to be in James 5:19-20?

"Death" is what the Lexicon says -- "Thanatos, physical death with implication of eternity in Hell."

1Tim3:5 is about a bishop, Gal4:11 and Phil.2:16 is about Paul’s labor. So none of those answers the question.

We can read more, if you wish. But I look forward to your thoughts on things like "Semitic View", I trust you'll look it up on the internet.

And may I ask, you don’t believe that Christ would not let His work and precious blood wasted in any way, shape, or form, or do you? I don’t think you believe and would believe He would.

We enter His fold and become His sheep (Jn10:9, "tis-anyone") by conscious choice, but any of us can become a Prodigal if we choose. As Heb3:12-14 scaringly warns against.

Not getting into discussing Romans 11, I would just say that it does not address the question. See my comments under question #2 above.

As I said, "branchES" plural were broken off, that doesn't mean "multiple nations".