Here’s one passage:
John10:26...
Let's read it in context.
10:24 Jews: "If You are the (Messiah), tell us plainly."
25, Jesus answered them, "I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah); the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
16, "But you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (you have not entered through Me, Jn10:9).
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch (harpazo-force) them out of My hand.
29. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (harpazo-force) them out of the Father's hand.
In no sense can this be made to fit any OSAS view. A sheep entered the fold willfully (and
became Jesus' sheep); if he willfully leaves is he still Jesus' sheep?
No.
Here’s what Paul said.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Does God love the unsaved, and desire for them to be saved? Yes; so nothing can separate us from His love, even if we disbelieve and perish.
The last two verses in James, I have addressed in the other segments.
For the sake of newcomers, James says that if any among you wander away from the truth, and (if) another leads him back, his soul will be saved (again) and his sins covered (forgiven). One cannot wander away from faith he's never had, nor can he come back to where he never was. James is as OSNAS as can be. See James1:14-16, we can be deceived by sin to spiritual death.
Gadget said:
God neither causes nor removes hardening; each person chooses for himself.
I had addressed this in my other post.
When Scripture says "God-hardens" (like in Ex10:1, when just two verses earlier it says Pharaoh did it to
himself), we can't make it into "well they both did it" -- God is incapable of complicity in sin in any measure, He is bound to His perfect righteousness. He has a character and nature, He cannot go against them. Again, Matt12 -- why was Jesus so angry?
Gadget said:
<<<On Rom11 -- it can't mean "nations", it says "natural branches" plural; Israel is only one.>>>
In the illustration the whole trunk of the olive tree represents Israel and the natural branches are Jews. The "wild olive" tree represents the Gentile world. Paul was not speaking of individual salvation here but of God’s program for Jews and Gentiles as groups.
Why wasn't he speaking of "individual salvation"? How else can a "branch be broken off for unbelief, or restored if they do not continue in unbelief"? Why are we-wild-branches-grafted-in "not to be conceited but fear,
for WE can be broken off TOO!
If that's not OSNAS, then what is it?
I asked you to consider Hebrews 6:4-6, thinking that you will come to realize one thing and its obvious necessary strong implication. That the truth and situation for the truly and already saved Christian, is that it is impossible for them to be restored to repentance unto Christ again.
Stop -- words written in Greek, must be read in Greek. It's not "impossible" --- it is
"adunatos, unable/powerless/impotent. What is the
cause of the powerlessness-to-restore-them-to-repentance? Willful sin. That'ts why NASB footnote says "impossible/unable to restore them to repentance
WHILE they crucify Christ to themselves anew (by repetitive sin).
Now, obviously this impossible thing only arises IF they fall away.
Again, the Greek does
NOT say "IF they fall away" --- it is aorist active participle,
their falling away is a fact.
It’s an absolute thing. There is no exception given that goes with this. One cannot say that they can be restored as long as they do this or that.
Doesn't matter what one says or you say or I say, the writer clearly said it was their willful sinfulness that's the problem. The context is 5:11-14 and 6:1-6 --- those who ARE FALLING, are the same ones as described in ch5 as "babes". They walk in sin and unrepentance.
To explain further, take for example, for the sake of illustration, that a truly saved Christian fall away into unbelief, rejecting the gospel and Jesus. When that happens, he could not be restored again to repentance, no matter what.
Not what it says.
There is nothing that he could do to be saved again. That is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying.
Well fine; let's just take a heavy black ink marker and mark out James5:19-20, and many others...
Now, what is the obvious necessary strong implication of that? It is that no truly saved Christian will fall away and be lost.
Sigh.
Now why are there who are said to have fallen away into unbelief, rejecting the gospel and Jesus? Who are they if the truly saved ones can not fall away? Who else, but are the ones who are not of the truly saved ones.
You really think "enlightened", "tasted good word of God and powers of age to come" (exactly the same as "Jesus
geuomai-tasted death Heb2:9), "PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit", are "never-truly/actually-saved"?
The writer labors extensively to expose them as WERE saved. The warning of 6:4-6 is the same as 10:26-29 --- if we continue sinning willfully after having (been saved), Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us! Golly, Tong -- why doesn't Heb6:7-8 and 11-12 convince you? We can produce EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be burned;
we need diligence to imitate those who by faith and patience inherit the promises.
No offense -- what would it have to say to be clearer?
I call them the nominal Christians ~ those whose faith is not the kind of faith that is of and from God, but that which that is of man. They are the ones who believe that they can by their free will choose to reject the gospel and believe no longer in Jesus Christ. That such choice is real to them and that they can do it should they will to do it so, anytime and for whatever reason; and after falling to unbelief, believes that they can believe again in the gospel and in Jesus. In other words, they are those who believe that they are saved and could by their will, be unsaved and be saved again.
We have to confine our assessments to Scripture; the writer calls them "saved", geuomai-tasted/participated exactly as Jesus tasted/participated in 2:9, and partners in the Spirit. Metochos-partakers/partners is SAVED in 3:1, in 3:14, and in 12:8; it's saved here too.
I sincerely think that the Christian should consider that and ponder on what Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying and teaching.
And we just did -- the Greek forbids "they-weren't-really-saved", and it prohibits "they-didn't-really-fall".
Yes they were, yes they did; they are US if we do not heed the warnings!
What implication you append there to the meaning of “death” or “thanatos” depends in the context. In James 5:19-20, the context does not support that implication.
Ah -- I see! One can be "wandered-away-from-truth but still SAVED", and have "uncovered/unforgiven sins but still be SAVED." (No, he can't...)
I did a search, but got nothing about “Semitic View”. If you can give me a link, that would be nice.
Earlier I included a link to "Anthropomorphism", it's the same. Charging God (or others) for what men do themselves.
You dodged my question.
Did not. we enter by free choice, and we can leave by free choice. Look at what
you are either dodging or stamping over with "NOT REALLY" (not-really-were-saved, or not-really-fell).
Gadget said:
God does not keep us if we want to leave; that was the purpose of the Prodigal Son story in Lk15. (One who is DEAD, is not "still a son".)
It's the message in Heb3:12-14 (take care BRETHREN lest you be hardened by deceitful sin to an unbelieving heart that falls away from God).
It's the message 2Pet3:17 (do not be carried away by deceitful men and fall from your own steadfastness),
it's the message in Heb4:11 (do not fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating Israel's disobedience and unbelief),
it's the message of 2Jn1:7-9 (watch yourselves against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought, that you may receive the full reward, anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings has not God; he who abides has the Father and the Son).
It's the message of 1Jn2:26-28 (be careful against deceivers, abide in Him so that you not shrink-in-shame when He returns).
It's the message of Col2:6-8 (as you have received Him so walk in Him, being built up and established in faith; see that no one takes you captive according to philosophy and empty deception, according to men's traditions or worldly principles rather than according to Christ).
There are many more like that. What shall we do with all of these to continue in OSAS? Mark them out? Tear out the pages? Stamp them "NOT REALLY"? Or just pretend they aren't there?
They are there. All these verses are lying on the table waving their hands, crying:
"Hey! What about us?!?!"
"THROUGH FAITH", is "HOW", and does not negate my statement.
And we are to BUILD OURSELVES in holy faith, and KEEP OURSELVES in His love (Jd20-21); so again "NO", God does not keep us against our will.
See how many verses must be swept aside to keep OSAS?