Christians are not under the New Covenant

[Ferris Bueller]

where does it say in “faith alone” we died with Christ or by “faith alone” we put on Christ or by “faith alone” are in the new covenant church??????

Are you ever going to understand the argument?
Stop using James' 'faith alone' argument to resist Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' argument! They are not the same argument, lol!

Abraham was made righteous by faith apart from works. That's Paul's argument. The one the Catholics reject.

Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works. That's James' argument. The one that Catholics misunderstand to mean a man is made righteous by his works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And luther demanded a council to settle it and they condemned all his doctrines
“If a man say you may be justified by faith alone, let him be anathema “!

Gee, what a surprise!
The leaders of a false religion rejecting opposition to their teachings by one of it's members.

I have only once ever heard of a leader of a false religion changing his views when challenged with the truth. Herbert W. Armstrong admitted on his deathbed that he had been wrong. Almost without exception, leaders of religious movements never admit they are wrong. They're simply to proud to admit they've been wrong.

 

[Grailhunter]

We Protestants know this.
This is not Paul's argument.
James is making another different argument about faith and works.

Paul: A man is MADE righteous by faith apart from works.
James: A man is SHOWN to be righteous by works.

See the difference?
Catholics think James is saying a man is MADE righteous by works. And worse that that, over and over! The Catholic is never at rest. He is always working to be justified (made righteous) before God.

We are known by our fruits....whether we be Catholic or Protestants.
And Ferris you need to look into what the Catholics actually do.
The Vatican has it preverbal head up their tail. And they have had 1700 years to come up with customs. While it only took 500 years for the Protestant to fracture the church into 30,000 pieces....They all have their problems but we all love Christ.

 

[Philip James]

Catholics think James is saying a man is MADE righteous by works.

Umm.. No.. Catholics think St. James said this:

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless

The issue has never been faith or works... But works wrought in faith!

Pax et Bonum!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Blind faith in Jesus ?

I always had faith in Jesus from as far back as I can remember, but to be totally honest I did not know him 100%, until I was born again.
I had great huge faith in Jesus before I was truly born again. but boy was that something to have the hand of God touch me like that. it blew me away ! I had an encounter with Jesus Christ himself. it all fell into place and I knew. all that seeking payed off.
I was reading the Bible before hand and I got up and was walking through the house dumdy dumdy dum and then bang ! God turned up. I was sealed ! no one can snatch me out of his hand now.

Do I do works ? No ! not at all, do I runabout like a chook trying to save peoples souls to a Church, No ! that's one who is working for your salvation, selling religion is in vane.

But as to works that James talks about, that has to do with You and Jesus Christ only, because you are the body and he is the head and you do his will. it's not a work that one boast about to anyone, but it's within you, you will give one the time because I am compelled too, not because I myself want to but because of Christ Jesus, so I am not selling anything. I can't save anyone, only God Saves ones Soul.

So if one asks of me I will give it a go, but most likely the questions they ask are out of skew somewhat, not to mention they will not understand what I am truly saying. for they are of this world. That's just the way it goes. sometimes you may think that you and they are on the same page but you are not truly, you find.

I was Raptured up ! to the Kingdom of God and then sent out into the world amongst the Wolves but I fear not because, they can not take my Soul.

This world hates the light but loves the darkness in fact. only the seeking Soul has a chance to sprout up against the weeds.

When people sprout that James is talking about worldly works, it shows that they don't have a clue what he is truly talking about, because they are not born again.
James is talking to the faithful who are worthy in Christ Jesus and not dolts. so some idiot comes along bagging that James does not know what he is talking about .

 

[TEXBOW]

So do you think that Acts 2:38 and the Sheep and the Goats are kind of like suggestions. I can go that route....

The Jews would have the Ten Suggestions.....

The eternal fiery punishment would be a neighborhood barbeque.

Well, and Heaven, they were just daydreaming, kind of like a short trip to the Ritz cause there is no such thing as a free lunch.

If you do not study the scriptures beyond Acts 2 you're never going to understand salvation by faith alone. You like to point to scripture prior to the cross, a period of time when the Gospel was preached to the Jews. Jesus's earthly ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel. Not until the mystery was reveled to Paul and the Apostles after Pauls interaction with Jesus on the road to Damascus was the offer of salvation by faith made to the Gentiles. Read the book of Acts completely and Pauls epistles and you will see that the pathway to salvation no longer required rituals under the law of Moses. You are much like the zealot Jews who tried to tell the new Gentile Christians they had to be circumcised. They too were wrong.

 

[Grailhunter]

If you do not study the scriptures beyond Acts 2 you're never going to understand salvation by faith alone. You like to point to scripture prior to the cross, a period of time when the Gospel was preached to the Jews.

I have already told you I know the Bible backwards and forwards and beyond. What you are talking about is not prescribed anywhere in the NT. This concept is literally a very new belief. It is not happening after the biblical era. Early Christian writers are talking about water Baptism. The Apostles Creed was a statement of faith that was publicly professed before water baptism.

St. Irenaeus is a second century Church Father who describes the nature and necessity of Baptism by water in his famous First Apology (written about 155 AD).

St. Augustine is another Early Church Father who comments upon the nature of Baptism and its connection with Johannine theology. 499 AD

You can take this up all they way to the Protestant reform. Martin Luther and then as it fractured off Calvin and the rest of them, none of these denominations were promoting anything but water baptism....of course they disagreed with infant baptism...and yes infant baptism with water. Every Protestant denomination prescribed water baptism.

Although it is a new belief it has no main stream support from any denomination that has any history at all. It is a belief, not a denomination.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Umm.. No.. Catholics think St. James said this:

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless

The issue has never been faith or works... But works wrought in faith!

You Catholics boast of your unity of fellowship and doctrine so I know I'm safe in saying I had lengthy discussions with a Catholic who made it plain and clear that Catholics perform their rituals in order to be made righteous before God, over and over again.

There is no one time declaration of righteousness in the Catholic dogma. You have to constantly seek re-justification through the sacraments and good works. Protestants, on the other hand, understand, first of all, that a declaration of right standing with God comes through one's faith, apart from the merit of their works (Romans 4:6), one time for all time (Hebrews 10:14). And that works validate the presence of that righteousness gained by faith apart from works. Just as the work of circumcision was the sign of Abraham's righteousness, not the procurer of it (Romans 4:11).

 

[theefaith]

He entered into the eternal covenant (Hebrews 13:20) by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6).
Paul says we are justified the same way Abraham was justified—by faith apart from works.
But if you are sure he performed some kind of work—baptism, circumcision, communion, whatever—in order to be made righteous in God's sight give us chapter and verse that says that. The work he did after he was made righteous by faith was the sign of the righteousness he got by faith. His work was not the procurer of it. But Catholic's insist that your work is what makes you righteous. Abraham did no work to be made righteous.

they did require circumcision as christ requires faith and baptism

no we are made righteous by grace merited by Christ in his passion and death and applied to our souls in the sacraments

 

[Ferris Bueller]

they did require circumcision as christ requires faith and baptism

But not to be made righteous!
This is the point that evades you.

 

[theefaith]

Are you ever going to understand the argument?
Stop using James' 'faith alone' argument to resist Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' argument! They are not the same argument, lol!

Abraham was made righteous by faith apart from works. That's Paul's argument. The one the Catholics reject.

Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works. That's James' argument. The one that Catholics misunderstand to mean a man is made righteous by his works.

it is grace received in the sacraments instituted by Christ that our faith and works are meritorious

matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

3. The race of faith: the example of Paul

4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"

6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved

9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"

11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money

16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother

19. Some will abandon the faith

20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"

23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"

24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"

25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning

26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!


rev 2:2 I know thy works

1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails NOTHING!

 

[theefaith]

Gee, what a surprise!
The leaders of a false religion rejecting opposition to their teachings by one of it's members.

I have only once ever heard of a leader of a false religion changing his views when challenged with the truth. Herbert W. Armstrong admitted on his deathbed that he had been wrong. Almost without exception, leaders of religious movements never admit they are wrong. They're simply to proud to admit they've been wrong.

by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council
Ever heard of bound on earth bound in heaven? Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18

the church cannot be wrong Jn 16:13

 

[Ferris Bueller]

1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails NOTHING!

But not because works of charity make you righteous as Catholics believe they do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the church cannot be wrong Jn 16:13

The Catholics are wrong. So by your own logic they are not the church.

Works do not make you righteous, as the Catholic church insists. Only faith in God's promise of a Son makes a person righteous in God's sight. Works show that you have that righteousness. That's why you can't be saved without works. Not because works earn a declaration of right standing with God as Catholics believe, but because, ultimately, the absence of works is the absence of faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

it is grace received in the sacraments...

The grace of being declared righteous (being made righteous in God's sight) is received through faith apart from works.

This is the very point that eludes the Catholics.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

our faith and works are meritorious

They are meritorious, but not as an obligation of debt that God owes us.

 

[theefaith]

But not to be made righteous!
This is the point that evades you.

How can grace be applied to you’re soul?

 

[theefaith]

But not because works of charity make you righteous as Catholics believe they do.

no we don’t

we believe it is by grace
Grace enables our faith and works to be meritorious and efficacious

 

[TEXBOW]

I have already told you I know the Bible backwards and forwards and beyond. What you are talking about is not prescribed anywhere in the NT. This concept is literally a very new belief. It is not happening after the biblical era. Early Christian writers are talking about water Baptism. The Apostles Creed was a statement of faith that was publicly professed before water baptism.

St. Irenaeus is a second century Church Father who describes the nature and necessity of Baptism by water in his famous First Apology (written about 155 AD).

St. Augustine is another Early Church Father who comments upon the nature of Baptism and its connection with Johannine theology. 499 AD

You can take this up all they way to the Protestant reform. Martin Luther and then as it fractured off Calvin and the rest of them, none of these denominations were promoting anything but water baptism....of course they disagreed with infant baptism...and yes infant baptism with water. Every Protestant denomination prescribed water baptism.

Although it is a new belief it has no main stream support from any denomination that has any history at all. It is a belief, not a denomination.

Water baptism as an ordnance. A public confession of ones faith but not a requirement for salvation.
The Apostles Creed, St Irenaeus, St. Augustine and of course Martin Luther's views are not scripture. I do not expect to change your view. I know many who are deeply seated in their views that you and I most likely would call heretics. I do not believe that water baptism is a requirement for salvation and you do. I believe that prior to the cross water baptism was taught as a sign of your faith. A sign most necessary for the Jews who's history was rich in rituals. I think that Christ's death on the cross is sufficient and man cannot execute any action to bring about salvation for himself. Paul repeats this over and over. Things simply changed after the cross. We disagree. I pray and hope that we can have this conversation in person one day soon in Heaven. I truly hope to see you there.

 

[theefaith]

The Catholics are wrong. So by your own logic they are not the church.

Works do not make you righteous, as the Catholic church insists. Only faith in God's promise of a Son makes a person righteous in God's sight. Works show that you have that righteousness. That's why you can't be saved without works. Not because works earn a declaration of right standing with God as Catholics believe, but because, ultimately, the absence of works is the absence of faith.

it is by grace

1 Peter 5:12
By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.