Is God Trying to Convert the World Now?

[Stumpmaster]

I am always amazed when people read right over words scripture....like they are not there.

Once again, Huh?

Strawman and non secateur fallacies are to be avoided.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Once again, Huh?

Strawman and non secateur fallacies are to be avoided.

So is the truth apparently....

 

[Hidden In Him]

Does Paul explain what "the third heaven" actually is? He cannot even tell if it was an 'in body' experience or an 'out of body' experience....all he knew was what he was shown something amazing where he felt like he had been transported somewhere else.....without much of an explanation at all.

How many "heavens" are there mentioned in the Bible? There are actually three.

1) Heaven where God resides. (Matthew 6:9)
2) The heavens where the sun, moon and stars shine (outside of earth's atmosphere). (Psalm 8:3)
3) The heavens where the birds fly (inside of earth's atmosphere). (Matthew 6:26)

So among those three "heavens"...which one was described by Paul as Paradise?
The fact is, he does not say.
The phrase "third heaven" is actually an unexplained mystery.

I suppose I should engage here.

Greetings, Jane.

Are you saying the Jehovahs Witness position on this text is that they don't know what "heavens" Paul was referring to specifically and that the meaning of the expression "third heaven" is unknown? I'd like more clarity.

Thanks for your response,
Hidden In Him

 

[Aunty Jane]

I suppose I should engage here.

Greetings, Jane.

Are you saying the Jehovahs Witness position on this text is that they don't know what "heavens" Paul was referring to specifically and that the meaning of the expression "third heaven" is unknown? I'd like more clarity.

Well, since it is obvious that Paul was not sure where “the third heaven” was as he was ‘transported’ to this place, and since these were visions and revelations that he personally experienced, we should let Paul explain......does he? Do we have any indication from Paul as to what the “third heaven” was, given what the scriptures indicate by this word “heaven”?

The apostle John when receiving the Revelation was also ‘transported’ into the future and recorded what was revealed to him about “the Lord’s day”. He was not physically taken anywhere, but given visions of the future.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The apostle John when receiving the Revelation was also ‘transported’ into the future and recorded what was revealed to him about “the Lord’s day”. He was not physically taken anywhere, but given visions of the future.

No, no. Two different things. John simply said he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10). Paul specifies that he was taken somewhere, not just into the future, but to a place, using very specifically the phrases "third heaven" and "Paradise."

Here is the problem I have with the position that something referred to in scripture is an "unknown mystery" (and I have seen such positions taken before when studying scholarship). In the guise of sounding pious, it is an open admission of not knowing what a verse or passage is talking about, despite the authors supposedly having the Spirit of God, whom Christ Jesus stated has been sent to reveal to us all things. Even with reference to the timing of the Lord's return, the scripture says we will nevertheless know the times and seasons. But Paul wrote about this event in such a way that his readers apparently knew what he was referring to, and thus it needed no further explanation. This means there was a Christian tradition in place concerning it.

Frankly Jane (and I say this cordially), this is the primary problem I have with much of Jehovahs Witness teachings. It is in large part a wholesale rewriting of Christian tradition into something foreign to the early church, and by extension makes the assumption that the early church did not have the Spirit of God revealing things to them; rather, that much of the true revelation from the word of God was reserved for thousands of years, and not revealed to mankind until the 1800s through the Watchtower Society. It places the rest of the church and the rest of humanity in the dark until that time, and still keeps them in the dark regarding passages like this simply because it refuses to acknowledge the early church's interpretation on it.

Just sort of setting a framework for discussion, since I know you and I have never talked before.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, no. Two different things. John simply said he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10). Paul specifies that he was taken somewhere, not just into the future, but to a place, using very specifically the phrases "third heaven" and "Paradise."

OK, so am I to assume then that Paul was physically transported somewhere, or that he was taken there like John in a vision? And since he was addressing his fellow believers about an experience he had 14 years previously, what could this mean to them? What was their understanding of what Paul said? Does he explain?

Here is the problem I have with the position that something referred to in scripture is an "unknown mystery" (and I have seen such positions taken before when studying scholarship). In the guise of sounding pious, it is an open admission of not knowing what a verse or passage is talking about, despite the authors supposedly having the Spirit of God, whom Christ Jesus stated has been sent to reveal to us all things.

Actually it is an admission that we cannot “go beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6) and offer assumptions about things that have no actual scriptural definition.

Even with reference to the timing of the Lord's return, the scripture says we will nevertheless know the times and seasons. But Paul wrote about this event in such a way that his readers apparently knew what he was referring to, and thus it needed no further explanation. This means there was a Christian tradition in place concerning it.

And there is your first assumption, which you go on to inflate as if it must be an established truth.....
If it is, then please show us the scripture that backs up this assumption. If your foundation is faulty, everything that you build on it will be faulty too.

Frankly Jane (and I say this cordially), this is the primary problem I have with much of Jehovahs Witness teachings.

Well, frankly HiH that is not my problem. As one who was not born a JW, I put in many years of study in order to prove to myself scripturally, that JW’s taught the actual truth as the Bible presented it...free from “the traditions of men”. History repeats you know....(Matthew 15:7-9)

It is in large part a wholesale rewriting of Christian tradition into something foreign to the early church, and by extension makes the assumption that the early church did not have the Spirit of God revealing things to them; rather, that much of the true revelation from the word of God was reserved for thousands of years, and not revealed to mankind until the 1800s through the Watchtower Society.

According to my studies the “wholesale rewriting of Christian tradition into something foreign” took place gradually, beginning whilst some of the apostles were still alive. But then not long after the death of the last apostle, John, it gained momentum until the birth of Christendom, which in no way is representative of Christ’s teachings. An apostasy was foretold where ‘the truth would be exchanged for the lie’ and “Christianity” would become something unrecognisable to the Lord Jesus upon his return. The “wheat and the weeds”.....but which is which, that is the question.

It places the rest of the church and the rest of humanity in the dark until that time, and still keeps them in the dark regarding passages like this simply because it refuses to acknowledge the early church's interpretation on it.

The “early church” was the problem. Apostasy was already manifesting itself towards the end of the first century. It just grew into a monstrous misrepresentation of Christ’s church to what it is today.....a fractured, disunited rabble of man made beliefs....hardly what Paul described. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Just sort of setting a framework for discussion, since I know you and I have never talked before.

Thank you....I hope I have also established a framework for discussion.....I have had a foot in both camps, so I know what rings true to me, and why only in this “time of the end” would God “cleanse, whiten and refine” a people ready for the coming of the Lord’s day of judgment. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

“Many” he said would offer their excuses to him at that time, imagining that they had done all things “in his name”....only to be told that he “ never knew” them. (Matthew 7:21-23) Who would want to be on the receiving end of such a rejection?

So with this in mind, and the background to my choice as to those with whom I will worship my God, (which is a very different God to the one worshipped in Christendom,) if you wish to proceed with a discussion, I am more than willing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

OK, so am I to assume then that Paul was physically transported somewhere, or that he was taken there like John in a vision? And since he was addressing his fellow believers about an experience he had 14 years previously, what could this mean to them? What was their understanding of what Paul said? Does he explain?

Actually it is an admission that we cannot “go beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6) and offer assumptions about things that have no actual scriptural definition.

Both of these replies revolve around the same assumption: That there was no established tradition behind which to interpret Paul's statements, so we must "only go by what is written," and since the text itself (as a stand alone) does not explain it, it becomes of necessity an "unexplained mystery." This again causes me to ask, did they or did they not have the Spirit of God to teach them all things, and maybe more importantly, do you and I? You are taking the position that we should go only by what is written, and yet you can give no explanation or interpretation for what is written.

 

[Pythagorean12]

No.
God's word says his intent wasn't to convert the whole world from the start. Why would he change now?

 

[Enoch111]

OK, so am I to assume then that Paul was physically transported somewhere, or that he was taken there like John in a vision? And since he was addressing his fellow believers about an experience he had 14 years previously, what could this mean to them? What was their understanding of what Paul said? Does he explain?

Still dancing around the truth Aunty Jane. It does not bode well. Scripture is crystal clear.

1. The third heaven is God's Heaven (where His throne is)
2. Paradise is indeed in the third Heaven (within the New Jerusalem)
3. Paul was transported to Heaven where he heard things which could not be revealed.
4. All believers who have passed on are now in Heaven (in the New Jerusalem).
5. All Christians will indeed go to Heaven, since that is where their citizenship is, and that is where their mansions are.
6. Even Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Now if you persist in your error after this, it means that you are calling God a liar.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Both of these replies revolve around the same assumption: That there was no established tradition behind which to interpret Paul's statements, so we must "only go by what is written," and since the text itself (as a stand alone) does not explain it, it becomes of necessity an "unexplained mystery." This again causes me to ask, did they or did they not have the Spirit of God to teach them all things, and maybe more importantly, do you and I? You are taking the position that we should go only by what is written, and yet you can give no explanation or interpretation for what is written.

Let me allow scripture to answer these questions.....
Since Daniel was the one who was inspired to write about this “time of the end”, that we are now experiencing with increased intensity, what does Daniel say about his own prophesies?

Daniel 12:1-4...
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” (ESV)

So here we have the scriptural answer to your questions.....
At the time of Christ’s return and the outbreak of the “great tribulation” (Matthew 24:21) God promises to deliver Daniel’s people. Who are they? Fleshly Jews, or spiritual Jews?

This was also the time for the resurrection of those “who sleep in the dust” and it is time for the “wise” to shine and “turn many to righteousness”.....But then Daniel was told to “shut up the book until the time of the end”....why, because full knowledge had to increase at that time...but not before.

Daniel went on to write, concerning this time.....
“I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.” (ESV)

This is what I believe the scriptures tell us about the time we are living in now. God was going to separate out for himself, a people whom he would “purify, whiten, and refine”....because of the spiritual filth that had infiltrated God’s worship.......that was to take place thousands of years into the future. Such is God’s far sightedness.

None of those whom God considers “wicked” will understand anything....only those whom he considers “wise” will be granted understanding.

So now we have to decide who these “purified, whitened and refined” ones are.....?
Daniel’s “people” are not the fleshly nation of Israel, because Paul went to a great deal of trouble to identify what is a “Jew”......(Romans 2: 28-29) “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) was the Christian congregation established by Jesus himself....both Jews and Gentiles.

So this is where I believe Jesus parable of the “wheat and the weeds” comes into play.

Who are the “wheat” and who are the “weeds”? How can we identify them?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Now if you persist in your error after this, it means that you are calling God a liar.

What if I said the same to you? According to what I accept as truth....you and those who accept your beliefs are the ones calling God a liar.....who decides? We all have the same judge. Won’t it be interesting to find out?

 

[Hidden In Him]

what does Daniel say about his own prophesies?... God promises to deliver Daniel’s people. Who are they? Fleshly Jews, or spiritual Jews?... Daniel’s “people” are not the fleshly nation of Israel, because Paul went to a great deal of trouble to identify what is a “Jew”......(Romans 2: 28-29) “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) was the Christian congregation established by Jesus himself....both Jews and Gentiles.

You are superimposing Paul's mindset unto Daniel's. When God told him, "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered," you are saying Daniel understood Him to mean spiritual Israel, including the Gentiles? The rest of the Chapter reads:

10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. (Daniel 12:10-12).

I think you are reaching heavily here, Jane. To assert that Daniel would have read into these statements anything other than that God was speaking to the nation of Israel is to go way beyond reason here.

Daniel went on to write, concerning this time.....
“I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.” (ESV)

This is what I believe the scriptures tell us about the time we are living in now. God was going to separate out for himself, a people whom he would “purify, whiten, and refine”....because of the spiritual filth that had infiltrated God’s worship.......that was to take place thousands of years into the future. Such is God’s far sightedness.

None of those whom God considers “wicked” will understand anything....only those whom he considers “wise” will be granted understanding.

Listen, I realize you rejected some form of orthodox Christianity long ago in favor of the JWs, but I think the enemy may have set you up to jump from the frying pan into the fire here. Statements like the above suggest you think people who subscribe to more orthodox Christian teachings are blind, and "wicked," and spiritually filthy. I consider JW doctrine to be as such, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they themselves are...

I'm surprised at you a little. You seem fairly level-headed in many of your posts, but if I am reading you right, these kinds of statements are highly judgmental. It presumes just what I was saying; that up until the Watchtower Society in the 1800s, mankind was walking in utter darkness. I'm not much for labelling anyone or anything, but after reading this I unfortunately would have to tell you the religion you have subscribed to bears the marks of a true, dyed-in-the-wool cult. Sorry to have to say that, as I don't reject you as a person, but I most certainly would steer clear of any "Christian" organization that told its people something like this.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are superimposing Paul's mindset unto Daniel's. When God told him, "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered," you are saying Daniel understood Him to mean spiritual Israel, including the Gentiles?

No! Daniel himself understood nothing...remember? He was just writing down prophesy that was to take place when Christ was due to return and then he was to seal up the book because no one would understand it until then. He wrote his prophesies about 500 years before Jesus was even born.

I think you are reaching heavily here, Jane. To assert that Daniel would have read into these statements anything other than that God was speaking to the nation of Israel is to go way beyond reason here.

Daniel did not read anything into those prophesies....that is the point. Those alive at this "time of the end" would be the only ones granted understanding and who would see the need to clean up their worship in preparation for Christ's return. It is not me, but the scriptures themselves that assert this.

Listen, I realize you rejected some form of orthodox Christianity long ago in favor of the JWs, but I think the enemy may have set you up to jump from the frying pan into the fire here. Statements like the above suggest you think people who subscribe to more orthodox Christian teachings are blind, and "wicked," and spiritually filthy. I consider JW doctrine to be as such, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they themselves are...

No way that I leapt from the frying pan into the fire....God put a hose on that fire by a study of his word. I know exactly what I believe and why I believe it.....I could never say that as a church member.

Christendom IMO, is an apostate counterfeit, teaching all manner of doctrines that Jesus never did. Why else could he say what he did in Matthew 7:21-23? These ones whom Jesus rejects are those who thought that their worship was acceptable....reiterating all the things they did "in his name".....yet Jesus says he "never knew" them......NEVER means NOT EVER....not from their very beginnings. So he can't be talking about original Christianity, because he was its beginnings.

I'm surprised at you a little. You seem fairly level-headed in many of your posts, but if I am reading you right, these kinds of statements are highly judgmental. It presumes just what I was saying; that up until the Watchtower Society in the 1800s, mankind was walking in utter darkness.

The "time of the end" was the time for things to change, and like apostate Judaism which Jesus rejected, Christendom is her mirror image., teaching all manner of human traditions that have no place in Christianity at all. So again, I see Jesus is leading his disciples out of a corrupt religious system.

I'm not much for labelling anyone or anything, but after reading this I unfortunately would have to tell you the religion you have subscribed to bears the marks of a true, dyed-in-the-wool cult. Sorry to have to say that, as I don't reject you as a person, but I most certainly would steer clear of any "Christian" organization that told its people something like this.

Is it to my amazement that people said exactly the same things about Jesus and his disciples? No! He told us to expect the same kind of opposition that he got from the very ones who claimed to worship the same God. (John 15:18-21)

God is not much one for labelling either.....he is not one bit impressed by what we call ourselves......he is however concerned with the quality of our character and the depth of our love for him and his word. To claim to serve the God and Father of Jesus Christ and yet fail to carry out all of his teachings, is to disqualify ourselves from citizenship in the Kingdom.(Matthew 28:19-20)

This was the comparison I made a long time ago and I have never regretted my departure.....I was lost, now I can truly say I was "found" and given a permanent home.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No! Daniel himself understood nothing...remember? He was just writing down prophesy that was to take place when Christ was due to return and then he was to seal up the book because no one would understand it until then. He wrote his prophesies about 500 years before Jesus was even born.

Daniel did not read anything into those prophesies....that is the point. Those alive at this "time of the end" would be the only ones granted understanding and who would see the need to clean up their worship in preparation for Christ's return. It is not me, but the scriptures themselves that assert this.

Ok, but now this position presents another problem; that God was somehow talking straight past the Jews to us Gentiles today, and was thus in effect misleading the Jews into only thinking He was speaking to them when He actually wasn't. I find it to be a theology that is far too self-focused, and lifted out of context from its historical roots.

Christendom IMO, is an apostate counterfeit, teaching all manner of doctrines that Jesus never did. Why else could he say what he did in Matthew 7:21-23? These ones whom Jesus rejects are those who thought that their worship was acceptable....reiterating all the things they did "in his name".....yet Jesus says he "never knew" them......NEVER means NOT EVER....not from their very beginnings. So he can't be talking about original Christianity, because he was its beginnings.

This again reflects sort of a self-concentric modern way of looking at the scriptures, as if they were written to us only. This passage was written about the Gnostics - people who practiced sorcery in the name of Jesus Christ, and they will be returning again before the Lord's return. It was not, however, about modern opponents of the Jehovahs Witnesses. That's a misapplication, and an example of reading into the text without properly understanding historical context. The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares was likewise also about the Gnostics, which you are again misappropriating as if it was written about the plight of Jehovahs Witnesses some 2,000 years later. Teaching the scriptures as if they had no meaning to those to whom they were originally given is too self-concentric, and doesn't take into account much of anything or anyone other than oneself. I realize you and other JWs are likely not doing this consciously, but you are doing it nonetheless, and I think it exposes a grave weakness in your religion: You are not the center of the religious universe, and I think the notion that a person can be if they convert to your religion is a lure set out to bait the unsuspecting.

The "time of the end" was the time for things to change, and like apostate Judaism which Jesus rejected, Christendom is her mirror image., teaching all manner of human traditions that have no place in Christianity at all. So again, I see Jesus is leading his disciples out of a corrupt religious system.

We agree here that much of Christendom is corrupted at the present time. We disagree that a more pure form of it is manifested in JW teachings. The exact opposite is true. It is a rejection of those things in Christendom that were still true, and adds to the dismantling rather than preserving the truth.

Is it to my amazement that people said exactly the same things about Jesus and his disciples? No! He told us to expect the same kind of opposition that he got from the very ones who claimed to worship the same God. (John 15:18-21)

Oh nonsense, LoL. No one hates you. :) I just think you are teaching a ton of heresy. Again, this is taking a passage that applied especially to the Jews of New Testament times and misappropriating it as applying more specifically to Christians in the 21st century. Am I scourging you in my synagogues? Do you have blood running down your back from all the stripes I've given you, or are you simply having someone politely disagree with your misapplications of scripture? :) It's not that bad, Jane, we are just opposed on doctrinal matters that's all, and vehemently. But I'm not "hating" you, and I'm not persecuting you. :)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ok, but now this position presents another problem; that God was somehow talking straight past the Jews to us Gentiles today, and was thus in effect misleading the Jews into only thinking He was speaking to them when He actually wasn't. I find it to be a theology that is far too self-focused, and lifted out of context from its historical roots.

Jesus’ parables are a wealth of illustrative information.....like the one in Matthew 22:1-14. It’s like God knew that fleshly Israel would never change their ways...”invited, but not worthy”. So, as a nation they would be rejected by the God whose covenants they continued to break.....I wonder how God knew? (Matthew 23:37-39)

This again reflects sort of a self-concentric modern way of looking at the scriptures, as if they were written to us only. This passage was written about the Gnostics - people who practiced sorcery in the name of Jesus Christ, and they will be returning again before the Lord's return.

I see no mention of the Gnostics in God’s word....do you? Gnosticism was rampant in the first two centuries C E and proved itself to be a mixture of philosophy, speculation and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity. The Gnostics challenged the Christians about who had the genuine teachings of Jesus. Since none of the Gnostic writings made it into the Bible canon, I think we can dismiss them as inconsequential.
Jesus words in Matthew 7:21-23 are directed to the “weeds” that Jesus said would flourish in the world right up to the “harvest time"....which is almost upon us.

The parable of the wheat and the tares was likewise also about the Gnostics

Nonsense......it’s about counterfeit Christianity sown in the world by the devil, corrupting the teachings of God’s word and growing along with the “wheat” in the same field". The reapers are getting ready for a bumper crop.

That's a misapplication, and an example of reading into the text without properly understanding historical context. The parable of the wheat and the tares was likewise also about the Gnostics, which you are again misappropriating as if it was written about the plight of Jehovahs Witnesses some 2,000 years later.

It’s not about Jehovah’s Witnesses, but about true Christians who would be identified by the fact that they were out preaching about “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth” (Matthew 24:14) just as Jesus said they would.......Christendom’s members always seemed to be MIA when it came to the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20)....always having excuses as to why they couldn’t do it. JW’s have been preaching continuously for over 100 years without stopping.....even for a war.
(Matthew 10:11-14) It was always an active search and rescue mission and we take it very seriously.

Teaching the scriptures as if they had no meaning to those to whom they were originally given is too self-concentric, and doesn't take into account much of anything or anyone other than oneself. I realize you and other JWs are likely not doing this consciously, but you are doing it nonetheless, and I think it exposes a grave weakness in your religion: You are not the center of the religious universe, and I think the notion that a person can be if they convert to your religion is a lure set out to bait the unsuspecting.

Scripture always had meaning for those to whom it was written......it’s just that the meaning stretched out to include other times and peoples. Prophesy often had a dual fulfilment....one for then....and one for now.

We agree here that much of Christendom is corrupted at the present time. We disagree that a more pure form of it is manifested in JW teachings. The exact opposite is true. It is a rejection of those things in Christendom that were still true, and adds to the dismantling rather than preserving the truth.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it......but as I see it, comparing both sides of the fence....there is no comparison. The separation is now complete. The “wheat” discerned the truth of Jesus’ teachings and left off all connection with that apostate system.....whilst the “weeds” deviated to include all manner of corruption....to which they cling to this day.

Again, this is taking a passage that applied especially to the Jews of New Testament times and misappropriating it as applying more specifically to Christians in the 21st century. Am I scourging you in my synagogues? Do you have blood running down your back from all the stripes I've given you, or are you simply having someone politely disagree with your misapplications of scripture? :) It's not that bad, Jane, we are just opposed on doctrinal matters that's all, and vehemently. But I'm not "hating" you, and I'm not persecuting you. :)

There are many ways to persecute someone. Some is verbal, some is physical, some is psychological.
My brothers are being horribly persecuted in Russia and have been for many years now. They are arrested and tortured just for being JW’s. They have done nothing wrong and their constitution guarantees them freedom of worship, but they passed a law classifying JW’s “extremists”......but no group of people on earth could be more peaceful or less of a threat that we are. The government, backed up by the Russian Orthodox church are in cahoots.
In other lands too, our Christian ministry is banned....but even covid can’t stop us preaching....we just have to be a bit more imaginative.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus’ parables are a wealth of illustrative information.....like the one in Matthew 22:1-14. It’s like God knew that fleshly Israel would never change their ways...”invited, but not worthy”. So, as a nation they would be rejected by the God whose covenants they continued to break.....I wonder how God knew? (Matthew 23:37-39)

Jane, if God supposedly knew that they would never change their ways, why is it said in your passage that after their house is left to them desolate, a day will nevertheless come when they will say "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

I see no mention of the Gnostics in God’s word....do you? Gnosticism was rampant in the first two centuries C E and proved itself to be a mixture of philosophy, speculation and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity. The Gnostics challenged the Christians about who had the genuine teachings of Jesus. Since none of the Gnostic writings made it into the Bible canon, I think we can dismiss them as inconsequential.

Lol. The founder of Gnosticism was Simon of Samaria, mentioned in the Book of Acts. Once again your doctrinal beliefs are causing you to throw out Christian tradition in favor of modern inventions. Anyone who thinks Gnosticism is not a heresy the New Testament church was dealing with is.. I'm trying to find an inoffensive word here that is still accurate... clueless to the subject matter of no less than five full New Testament epistles, and everything in them unfortunately.

Gnosticism was rampant in the first two centuries C E and proved itself to be a mixture of philosophy, speculation and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity.

I am not referring to 2nd and 3rd century Gnosticism. I'm referring to the original versions of it, when it was founded in the 1st century.

“harvest time"....which is almost upon us... The reapers are getting ready for a bumper crop.

Jane, the founders of your religion have been falsely claiming that the harvest was at hand for over a hundred+ years now, and it appears to be a habit the JWs cannot get out of as a result. I would like nothing better than if He were to be returning soon, but it is a delusion, based on errant eschatology. Don't become another Harold Camping, or repeat after the mistakes of the founding fathers of your faith, and then have to make up a doctrine about how the Lord actually came "spiritually" to cover for it. We still have a long ways to go yet, and if you live long enough you will find out I am right.

Prophesy often had a dual fulfilment....one for then....and one for now.

Correct, and this is at least one thing we can agree on. But your interpretations focus so heavily on modern applications that these same interpretations make them untenable to the people they were originally spoken to. You need to be able to apply interpretations that would have made sense for them then, not just sense for us today.

There are many ways to persecute someone. Some is verbal, some is physical, some is psychological.
My brothers are being horribly persecuted in Russia and have been for many years now. They are arrested and tortured just for being JW’s. They have done nothing wrong and their constitution guarantees them freedom of worship, but they passed a law classifying JW’s “extremists”......but no group of people on earth could be more peaceful or less of a threat that we are. The government, backed up by the Russian Orthodox church are in cahoots. In other lands too, our Christian ministry is banned....but even covid can’t stop us preaching....we just have to be a bit more imaginative.

You were addressing me, not the Russians : )

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jane, if God supposedly knew that they would never change their ways, why is it said in your passage that after their house is left to them desolate, a day will nevertheless come when they will say "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

I believe that you may be reading that a little differently to me....
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matthew 23:37-39 ESV)

You see that little word there....? “UNTIL”....he doesn’t say that they will see him again “WHEN” they say “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.
In the last 2,000 years, how have the Jews as a nation viewed Jesus? As the promised Messiah, as the one who “came in the name of the Lord”? Or as a fake imposter whom they have never repented of murdering?
Like those in the first century, many Jews have individually become “Christians”, embracing all that it means, but many “Messianic Jews” refuse to be called “Christians” because of not wanting to abandon their Jewish heritage.....still being “sons of Abraham”....as if that still counts for something. (Matthew 3:9-10)

The founder of Gnosticism was Simon of Samaria, mentioned in the Book of Acts. Once again your doctrinal beliefs are causing you to throw out Christian tradition in favor of modern inventions. Anyone who thinks Gnosticism is not a heresy the New Testament church was dealing with is.. I'm trying to find an inoffensive word here that is still accurate... clueless to the subject matter of no less than five full New Testament epistles, and everything in them unfortunately.

Are you serious?
“Simon Magus, also known as Simon the Sorcerer or Simon the Magician, was a religious figure whose confrontation with Peter is recorded in Acts 8:9–24. The act of simony, or paying for position, is named after Simon who tried to buy his way into the power of the Apostles.” That Simon? Good grief!!! :

If the only mention of this man is as an example of what not to be and to do.....then what is your point?

Jane, the founders of your religion have been falsely claiming that the harvest was at hand for over a hundred+ years now, and it appears to be a habit the JWs cannot get out of as a result. I would like nothing better than if He were to be returning soon, but it is a delusion, based on errant eschatology.

Actually, we haven’t been claiming anything of the sort. Now your ignorance is telling. I have been a Witness of Jehovah for over 50 years. I was there when certain years were discussed as maybe the time of Christ’s return to establish his Kingdom on earth.....it was always a maybe, never a day or hour.

Our logo is the “Watchtower”.....do you know why?
It was the responsibility of the watchman on the watchtower to sound an alarm when a perceived threat was approaching the city. The watchman did his job by alerting the inhabitants city of this approach. If it was friend or foe....something to welcome or something to repel, was not known until they came closer. Once identified, the city could either prepare for the intruders, or go back to business as usual.

So in accord with Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:43-44, we have “kept on the watch” and we make no apology for it. We can’t be like the ten virgins who went to sleep waiting for the bridegroom to arrive. He came at a time they did not expect, but only those who prepared in advance for a delay, actually got to go into the marriage feast. Christendom has gone to sleep with no oil for their lamps, IMO.

Don't....repeat after the mistakes of the founding fathers of your faith, and then have to make up a doctrine about how the Lord actually came "spiritually" to cover for it. We still have a long ways to go yet, and if you live long enough you will find out I am right.

We didn’t make up anything...but what we discerned by a study of the original languages of the Bible, something very interesting that explains everything.

In Matthew 24:3, Jesus did not tell us about his “coming” but about his “parousia” or presence, which he indicated by a “sign”, or a series of world events that would indicate that he was now ruling as king in his Father’s Kingdom. If it was a visible “coming on the clouds with power and great glory” then why the need for a sign? This period would see the fulfilment of all those events...including the most intensive preaching campaign that the world has ever had....”in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations”...and then “the end” would come. (Matthew 24:24) His “coming” to judge the world is then a separate event which happens at the end. The “time of the end” is therefore a judgment period, where we all have an opportunity to show God who we are, and what we will practice and believe in our worship.

We can see clearly when this time period began, but he does not tell us when it ends. (Matthew 24:36-39) The signs are now all there to indicate the final days for this present system of things.

Correct, and this is at least one thing we can agree on. But your interpretations focus so heavily on modern applications that these same interpretations make them untenable to the people they were originally spoken to. You need to be able to apply interpretations that would have made sense for them then, not just sense for us today.

They are applied very well to both time periods, so I don’t know how you can say that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus promised, “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:14) Does this promise mean that now is the only time of salvation for all people? The common words ALL and EVERY are two of the most important words in the Bible. In Luke 2:10 the angel who announced the birth of Jesus said, “Behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people.” Verses 30 and 31 speak of salvation for “ALL people.” 1 Timothy 4:10 speaks of God as “the Saviour of ALL men.”

The simple logic of Jesus dying for ALL is found in 1 Corinthians 15:22: “As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” Similarly, Romans 5:18 shows that “by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift came upon ALL men.” Father Adam sinned with the unborn race yet in his loins. Therefore, ALL were born in sin and shapen in iniquity (Psalm 51:5) and thus worthy of death. God knew that Adam, due to a lack of experience would disobey. Thus 1 Peter 1:19,20, speaks of the blood of Christ as being foreordained for our redemption even before Adam was created. Since ALL were lost in Adam, it was necessary that Jesus “by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man” (Hebrews 2:9).

John 1:7 speaks of Jesus as “the Light, that ALL men through him might believe.” Verse 9 says he is “the True Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.” How can this be? Countless millions died before the time of Jesus. They never saw the True Light! They never heard the name of Jesus. And since the death of Jesus, millions died never hearing of the only “name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). If you are a Bible-believing Christian, you know that no one is saved through ignorance but only by believing in Jesus as his or her saviour. This is a seeming contradiction. The answer is found in 1 Timothy 2:5,6, “. . .Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time”-a plain statement that Jesus died for “ALL.” If Jesus died for “ALL,” why is it that ALL do not have the opportunity to hear this good news? The key of harmony is found in the phrase “due time.” The Greek word translated “time” is plural; i.e., times (Thayer’s Lexicon of the New Testament). The knowledge that Jesus is a ransom for ALL will be testified “in due times.” The due time for those God is calling to be of the Church is during the Christian Age. The due time for ALL other people to understand is during the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

Now is not the time for ALL to hear the name of Jesus. God is not trying to convert the world between the first and second advents. If He was, then He has obviously failed. For after nearly 2,000 years, less than one third of the world’s population even claims to be Christian. The fact is Jesus predicted only that the gospel would be a witness to the world, not that all would be converted before the end of the Age.

Mark 4:11,12, specifically states that God is not trying to convert the world now. Jesus said to his disciples, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without all these things are done in parables. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.” Ponder well this scripture.

If Jesus died for ALL, why has God arranged that many would not be able to understand the Bible and, therefore, not be converted and have their sins forgiven? The Bible is not written like a textbook system of logic. God purposely had the Bible written in parables and symbols, so that many would not be converted and have their sins forgiven. This is why there are over 250 Christian denominations with so many different interpretations of the Bible. God has not attempted to convert the world, but is only calling a “little flock” at this time. If man’s eternal destiny was dependent upon understanding the Bible now, our God of love (1 John 4:8) would have surely made the Bible plain and simple for all to understand.

Acts 15:14-17 reveals that “God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name [not to convert all]. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, after this I will return [Second Advent] and build again the tabernacle of David [set up the kingdom of God]… that the residue [REMAINDER] of men might seek after the Lord and ALL the Gentiles….” God’s work since the death of Jesus has not been to convert all humankind, but merely to take out or to call out a “people for his name.” In the Kingdom, all the REMAINDER of men, who are not of these called out ones, will have their opportunity to seek the Lord.

The answer is that you quoting Matthew 24 and the gospel of th e kingdom is a wrong verse for the question.

Matthew 24:14
King James Version

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Word witness is the word "martyrion" (where we get our word martyr from ). It is a judicial word that means evidence or testimonial against in this case. This is the Lord sending people out to testify against the world. Not evangelize them. In all likelihood, this is after the mark is established and mandated and their damnation is now being given as a testimonial.

tot eh saved teh call that teh kingdom is coming is good news, to those who take the mark it is an announcement of doom.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I believe that you may be reading that a little differently to me....
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matthew 23:37-39 ESV)

You see that little word there....? “UNTIL”....he doesn’t say that they will see him again “WHEN” they say “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.

Jane, He was citing Psalm 118, which is a Psalm of hope concerning Israel and the house of Aaron. It begins and ends as follows:

1 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. 2 Let Israel now say, “His mercy endures forever.” 3 Let the house of Aaron now say, “His mercy endures forever.” 4 Let those who fear the Lord now say, “His mercy endures forever”... 22 The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the Lord’s doing; It is marvelous in our eyes... 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed You from the house of the Lord. 27 God is the Lord, and He has given us light. Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar. 29 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.

According to you, this is a Psalm about the rejection of earthly Israel?

Are you serious?
“Simon Magus, also known as Simon the Sorcerer or Simon the Magician, was a religious figure whose confrontation with Peter is recorded in Acts 8:9–24. The act of simony, or paying for position, is named after Simon who tried to buy his way into the power of the Apostles.” That Simon? Good grief!!! :

If the only mention of this man is as an example of what not to be and to do.....then what is your point?

The JW position rearing its ugly head again:

"We go by scripture only, and if scripture doesn't say something, then it's a "hidden mystery" we have no clue about since the Spirit of God has not been given unto us to lead us into all truth" - Sincerely yours, the Watchtower Society.

Jane, do you realize just how many times you would have to go through this exercise of piously defending ignorance because "while we have no clue, the one thing we are absolutely certain about is that early church tradition is a lie."

Actually, we haven’t been claiming anything of the sort. Now your ignorance is telling. I have been a Witness of Jehovah for over 50 years. I was there when certain years were discussed as maybe the time of Christ’s return to establish his Kingdom on earth.....it was always a maybe, never a day or hour.

It was always a maybe?

1. We consider it an established truth that the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, WILL be accomplished by 1914. (The Time is at Hand, 1906 edition)

2. The battle of the great day of God Almighty, which WILL end in AD 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced. (The Time is at Hand, 1909 ed., P.101)

3. With the end of 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, WILL have passed away, as already shown from prophecy. (Thy Kingdom Come, 1907 ed, P.153)

I'd rather not pile on unless absolutely necessary here, but how were such quotes "always a maybe"? And if they were citing 1914 as the year unequivocally, "the day and the hour" should have come within the year, yes?

114 years later you are still telling me that Christendom is about to pass away. How then am I "showing my ignorance" in my analysis of the Watchtower, and of you continuing to fall into the same patterns of behavior?

 

[Aunty Jane]

According to you, this is a Psalm about the rejection of earthly Israel?

According to Jesus he applied it to the "Israel" that he was condemning in Matthew 23.

The JW position rearing its ugly head again:

"We go by scripture only, and if scripture doesn't say something, then it's a "hidden mystery" we have no clue about since the Spirit of God has not been given unto us to lead us into all truth" - Sincerely yours, the Watchtower Society.

Jane, do you realize just how many times you would have to go through this exercise of piously defending ignorance because "while we have no clue, the one thing we are absolutely certain about is that early church tradition is a lie."

You really have a problem with JW's don't you? You express the same distaste that I have for Christendom....from which I fled because of their disgusting doctrines and absolute hypocrisy. Now are you going to tell me that you know more than God's word teaches us....despite Jesus constant reference to God's word...he answered the devil's temptations with "it is written" and Paul told us not to "go beyond what is written"....so you know better huh?
What ugly head are you raising?

It was always a maybe?

1. We consider it an established truth that the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, WILL be accomplished by 1914. (The Time is at Hand, 1906 edition)

2. The battle of the great day of God Almighty, which WILL end in AD 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced. (The Time is at Hand, 1909 ed., P.101)

3. With the end of 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, WILL have passed away, as already shown from prophecy. (Thy Kingdom Come, 1907 ed, P.153)

Oh, I thought you might go digging in the pig's trough.....it indicates the depths that people who have no answers always resort to.
Seriously mate if we don't know any better now that we did over 100 years ago, we should all go out and shoot ourselves. At the turn of the century there was much speculation and stirring even among many in Christendom's churches. The International Bible Students (as we were then known) had a long way to go in their understanding. We were in our infancy and with 1914 approaching (which we knew was a marked year in Bible prophesy) there was still much to learn.

Daniel had prophesied that a "cleansing, whitening and refining" had to take place among God's people, and each of these is a process....it took time to examine scripture and to ascertain the deeper applications. The "light on the path" was to grow brighter as the day dawned. (Proverbs 4:18) It did....and now our separation from Christendom is clearer than ever. We share absolutely nothing in common with them.

What about your own brotherhood HiH? Who are they and what are their beliefs so that we can give them the same scrutiny?