Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Once again, Huh?I am always amazed when people read right over words scripture....like they are not there.
Strawman and non secateur fallacies are to be avoided.
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Once again, Huh?I am always amazed when people read right over words scripture....like they are not there.
So is the truth apparently....Once again, Huh?
Strawman and non secateur fallacies are to be avoided.
Does Paul explain what "the third heaven" actually is? He cannot even tell if it was an 'in body' experience or an 'out of body' experience....all he knew was what he was shown something amazing where he felt like he had been transported somewhere else.....without much of an explanation at all.
How many "heavens" are there mentioned in the Bible? There are actually three.
1) Heaven where God resides. (Matthew 6:9)
2) The heavens where the sun, moon and stars shine (outside of earth's atmosphere). (Psalm 8:3)
3) The heavens where the birds fly (inside of earth's atmosphere). (Matthew 6:26)
So among those three "heavens"...which one was described by Paul as Paradise?
The fact is, he does not say.
The phrase "third heaven" is actually an unexplained mystery.
Well, since it is obvious that Paul was not sure where “the third heaven” was as he was ‘transported’ to this place, and since these were visions and revelations that he personally experienced, we should let Paul explain......does he? Do we have any indication from Paul as to what the “third heaven” was, given what the scriptures indicate by this word “heaven”?I suppose I should engage here.
Greetings, Jane.
Are you saying the Jehovahs Witness position on this text is that they don't know what "heavens" Paul was referring to specifically and that the meaning of the expression "third heaven" is unknown? I'd like more clarity.
The apostle John when receiving the Revelation was also ‘transported’ into the future and recorded what was revealed to him about “the Lord’s day”. He was not physically taken anywhere, but given visions of the future.
OK, so am I to assume then that Paul was physically transported somewhere, or that he was taken there like John in a vision? And since he was addressing his fellow believers about an experience he had 14 years previously, what could this mean to them? What was their understanding of what Paul said? Does he explain?No, no. Two different things. John simply said he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10). Paul specifies that he was taken somewhere, not just into the future, but to a place, using very specifically the phrases "third heaven" and "Paradise."
Actually it is an admission that we cannot “go beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6) and offer assumptions about things that have no actual scriptural definition.Here is the problem I have with the position that something referred to in scripture is an "unknown mystery" (and I have seen such positions taken before when studying scholarship). In the guise of sounding pious, it is an open admission of not knowing what a verse or passage is talking about, despite the authors supposedly having the Spirit of God, whom Christ Jesus stated has been sent to reveal to us all things.
And there is your first assumption, which you go on to inflate as if it must be an established truth.....Even with reference to the timing of the Lord's return, the scripture says we will nevertheless know the times and seasons. But Paul wrote about this event in such a way that his readers apparently knew what he was referring to, and thus it needed no further explanation. This means there was a Christian tradition in place concerning it.
Well, frankly HiH that is not my problem. As one who was not born a JW, I put in many years of study in order to prove to myself scripturally, that JW’s taught the actual truth as the Bible presented it...free from “the traditions of men”. History repeats you know....(Matthew 15:7-9)Frankly Jane (and I say this cordially), this is the primary problem I have with much of Jehovahs Witness teachings.
According to my studies the “wholesale rewriting of Christian tradition into something foreign” took place gradually, beginning whilst some of the apostles were still alive. But then not long after the death of the last apostle, John, it gained momentum until the birth of Christendom, which in no way is representative of Christ’s teachings. An apostasy was foretold where ‘the truth would be exchanged for the lie’ and “Christianity” would become something unrecognisable to the Lord Jesus upon his return. The “wheat and the weeds”.....but which is which, that is the question.It is in large part a wholesale rewriting of Christian tradition into something foreign to the early church, and by extension makes the assumption that the early church did not have the Spirit of God revealing things to them; rather, that much of the true revelation from the word of God was reserved for thousands of years, and not revealed to mankind until the 1800s through the Watchtower Society.
The “early church” was the problem. Apostasy was already manifesting itself towards the end of the first century. It just grew into a monstrous misrepresentation of Christ’s church to what it is today.....a fractured, disunited rabble of man made beliefs....hardly what Paul described. (1 Corinthians 1:10)It places the rest of the church and the rest of humanity in the dark until that time, and still keeps them in the dark regarding passages like this simply because it refuses to acknowledge the early church's interpretation on it.
Thank you....I hope I have also established a framework for discussion.....I have had a foot in both camps, so I know what rings true to me, and why only in this “time of the end” would God “cleanse, whiten and refine” a people ready for the coming of the Lord’s day of judgment. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)Just sort of setting a framework for discussion, since I know you and I have never talked before.
OK, so am I to assume then that Paul was physically transported somewhere, or that he was taken there like John in a vision? And since he was addressing his fellow believers about an experience he had 14 years previously, what could this mean to them? What was their understanding of what Paul said? Does he explain?
Actually it is an admission that we cannot “go beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6) and offer assumptions about things that have no actual scriptural definition.
Still dancing around the truth Aunty Jane. It does not bode well. Scripture is crystal clear.OK, so am I to assume then that Paul was physically transported somewhere, or that he was taken there like John in a vision? And since he was addressing his fellow believers about an experience he had 14 years previously, what could this mean to them? What was their understanding of what Paul said? Does he explain?
Both of these replies revolve around the same assumption: That there was no established tradition behind which to interpret Paul's statements, so we must "only go by what is written," and since the text itself (as a stand alone) does not explain it, it becomes of necessity an "unexplained mystery." This again causes me to ask, did they or did they not have the Spirit of God to teach them all things, and maybe more importantly, do you and I? You are taking the position that we should go only by what is written, and yet you can give no explanation or interpretation for what is written.
What if I said the same to you? According to what I accept as truth....you and those who accept your beliefs are the ones calling God a liar.....who decides? We all have the same judge. Won’t it be interesting to find out?Now if you persist in your error after this, it means that you are calling God a liar.
what does Daniel say about his own prophesies?... God promises to deliver Daniel’s people. Who are they? Fleshly Jews, or spiritual Jews?... Daniel’s “people” are not the fleshly nation of Israel, because Paul went to a great deal of trouble to identify what is a “Jew”......(Romans 2: 28-29) “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) was the Christian congregation established by Jesus himself....both Jews and Gentiles.
Daniel went on to write, concerning this time.....
“I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.” (ESV)
This is what I believe the scriptures tell us about the time we are living in now. God was going to separate out for himself, a people whom he would “purify, whiten, and refine”....because of the spiritual filth that had infiltrated God’s worship.......that was to take place thousands of years into the future. Such is God’s far sightedness.
None of those whom God considers “wicked” will understand anything....only those whom he considers “wise” will be granted understanding.
No! Daniel himself understood nothing...remember? He was just writing down prophesy that was to take place when Christ was due to return and then he was to seal up the book because no one would understand it until then. He wrote his prophesies about 500 years before Jesus was even born.You are superimposing Paul's mindset unto Daniel's. When God told him, "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered," you are saying Daniel understood Him to mean spiritual Israel, including the Gentiles?
Daniel did not read anything into those prophesies....that is the point. Those alive at this "time of the end" would be the only ones granted understanding and who would see the need to clean up their worship in preparation for Christ's return. It is not me, but the scriptures themselves that assert this.I think you are reaching heavily here, Jane. To assert that Daniel would have read into these statements anything other than that God was speaking to the nation of Israel is to go way beyond reason here.
No way that I leapt from the frying pan into the fire....God put a hose on that fire by a study of his word. I know exactly what I believe and why I believe it.....I could never say that as a church member.Listen, I realize you rejected some form of orthodox Christianity long ago in favor of the JWs, but I think the enemy may have set you up to jump from the frying pan into the fire here. Statements like the above suggest you think people who subscribe to more orthodox Christian teachings are blind, and "wicked," and spiritually filthy. I consider JW doctrine to be as such, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they themselves are...
The "time of the end" was the time for things to change, and like apostate Judaism which Jesus rejected, Christendom is her mirror image., teaching all manner of human traditions that have no place in Christianity at all. So again, I see Jesus is leading his disciples out of a corrupt religious system.I'm surprised at you a little. You seem fairly level-headed in many of your posts, but if I am reading you right, these kinds of statements are highly judgmental. It presumes just what I was saying; that up until the Watchtower Society in the 1800s, mankind was walking in utter darkness.
Is it to my amazement that people said exactly the same things about Jesus and his disciples? No! He told us to expect the same kind of opposition that he got from the very ones who claimed to worship the same God. (John 15:18-21)I'm not much for labelling anyone or anything, but after reading this I unfortunately would have to tell you the religion you have subscribed to bears the marks of a true, dyed-in-the-wool cult. Sorry to have to say that, as I don't reject you as a person, but I most certainly would steer clear of any "Christian" organization that told its people something like this.
No! Daniel himself understood nothing...remember? He was just writing down prophesy that was to take place when Christ was due to return and then he was to seal up the book because no one would understand it until then. He wrote his prophesies about 500 years before Jesus was even born.
Daniel did not read anything into those prophesies....that is the point. Those alive at this "time of the end" would be the only ones granted understanding and who would see the need to clean up their worship in preparation for Christ's return. It is not me, but the scriptures themselves that assert this.
Christendom IMO, is an apostate counterfeit, teaching all manner of doctrines that Jesus never did. Why else could he say what he did in Matthew 7:21-23? These ones whom Jesus rejects are those who thought that their worship was acceptable....reiterating all the things they did "in his name".....yet Jesus says he "never knew" them......NEVER means NOT EVER....not from their very beginnings. So he can't be talking about original Christianity, because he was its beginnings.
The "time of the end" was the time for things to change, and like apostate Judaism which Jesus rejected, Christendom is her mirror image., teaching all manner of human traditions that have no place in Christianity at all. So again, I see Jesus is leading his disciples out of a corrupt religious system.
Is it to my amazement that people said exactly the same things about Jesus and his disciples? No! He told us to expect the same kind of opposition that he got from the very ones who claimed to worship the same God. (John 15:18-21)
Jesus’ parables are a wealth of illustrative information.....like the one in Matthew 22:1-14. It’s like God knew that fleshly Israel would never change their ways...”invited, but not worthy”. So, as a nation they would be rejected by the God whose covenants they continued to break.....I wonder how God knew? (Matthew 23:37-39)Ok, but now this position presents another problem; that God was somehow talking straight past the Jews to us Gentiles today, and was thus in effect misleading the Jews into only thinking He was speaking to them when He actually wasn't. I find it to be a theology that is far too self-focused, and lifted out of context from its historical roots.
I see no mention of the Gnostics in God’s word....do you? Gnosticism was rampant in the first two centuries C E and proved itself to be a mixture of philosophy, speculation and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity. The Gnostics challenged the Christians about who had the genuine teachings of Jesus. Since none of the Gnostic writings made it into the Bible canon, I think we can dismiss them as inconsequential.This again reflects sort of a self-concentric modern way of looking at the scriptures, as if they were written to us only. This passage was written about the Gnostics - people who practiced sorcery in the name of Jesus Christ, and they will be returning again before the Lord's return.
Nonsense......it’s about counterfeit Christianity sown in the world by the devil, corrupting the teachings of God’s word and growing along with the “wheat” in the same field". The reapers are getting ready for a bumper crop.The parable of the wheat and the tares was likewise also about the Gnostics
It’s not about Jehovah’s Witnesses, but about true Christians who would be identified by the fact that they were out preaching about “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth” (Matthew 24:14) just as Jesus said they would.......Christendom’s members always seemed to be MIA when it came to the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20)....always having excuses as to why they couldn’t do it. JW’s have been preaching continuously for over 100 years without stopping.....even for a war.That's a misapplication, and an example of reading into the text without properly understanding historical context. The parable of the wheat and the tares was likewise also about the Gnostics, which you are again misappropriating as if it was written about the plight of Jehovahs Witnesses some 2,000 years later.
Scripture always had meaning for those to whom it was written......it’s just that the meaning stretched out to include other times and peoples. Prophesy often had a dual fulfilment....one for then....and one for now.Teaching the scriptures as if they had no meaning to those to whom they were originally given is too self-concentric, and doesn't take into account much of anything or anyone other than oneself. I realize you and other JWs are likely not doing this consciously, but you are doing it nonetheless, and I think it exposes a grave weakness in your religion: You are not the center of the religious universe, and I think the notion that a person can be if they convert to your religion is a lure set out to bait the unsuspecting.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it......but as I see it, comparing both sides of the fence....there is no comparison. The separation is now complete. The “wheat” discerned the truth of Jesus’ teachings and left off all connection with that apostate system.....whilst the “weeds” deviated to include all manner of corruption....to which they cling to this day.We agree here that much of Christendom is corrupted at the present time. We disagree that a more pure form of it is manifested in JW teachings. The exact opposite is true. It is a rejection of those things in Christendom that were still true, and adds to the dismantling rather than preserving the truth.
Again, this is taking a passage that applied especially to the Jews of New Testament times and misappropriating it as applying more specifically to Christians in the 21st century. Am I scourging you in my synagogues? Do you have blood running down your back from all the stripes I've given you, or are you simply having someone politely disagree with your misapplications of scripture? It's not that bad, Jane, we are just opposed on doctrinal matters that's all, and vehemently. But I'm not "hating" you, and I'm not persecuting you.
Jesus’ parables are a wealth of illustrative information.....like the one in Matthew 22:1-14. It’s like God knew that fleshly Israel would never change their ways...”invited, but not worthy”. So, as a nation they would be rejected by the God whose covenants they continued to break.....I wonder how God knew? (Matthew 23:37-39)
I see no mention of the Gnostics in God’s word....do you? Gnosticism was rampant in the first two centuries C E and proved itself to be a mixture of philosophy, speculation and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity. The Gnostics challenged the Christians about who had the genuine teachings of Jesus. Since none of the Gnostic writings made it into the Bible canon, I think we can dismiss them as inconsequential.
Gnosticism was rampant in the first two centuries C E and proved itself to be a mixture of philosophy, speculation and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity.
“harvest time"....which is almost upon us... The reapers are getting ready for a bumper crop.
Prophesy often had a dual fulfilment....one for then....and one for now.
There are many ways to persecute someone. Some is verbal, some is physical, some is psychological.
My brothers are being horribly persecuted in Russia and have been for many years now. They are arrested and tortured just for being JW’s. They have done nothing wrong and their constitution guarantees them freedom of worship, but they passed a law classifying JW’s “extremists”......but no group of people on earth could be more peaceful or less of a threat that we are. The government, backed up by the Russian Orthodox church are in cahoots. In other lands too, our Christian ministry is banned....but even covid can’t stop us preaching....we just have to be a bit more imaginative.
I believe that you may be reading that a little differently to me....Jane, if God supposedly knew that they would never change their ways, why is it said in your passage that after their house is left to them desolate, a day will nevertheless come when they will say "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
Are you serious?The founder of Gnosticism was Simon of Samaria, mentioned in the Book of Acts. Once again your doctrinal beliefs are causing you to throw out Christian tradition in favor of modern inventions. Anyone who thinks Gnosticism is not a heresy the New Testament church was dealing with is.. I'm trying to find an inoffensive word here that is still accurate... clueless to the subject matter of no less than five full New Testament epistles, and everything in them unfortunately.
Actually, we haven’t been claiming anything of the sort. Now your ignorance is telling. I have been a Witness of Jehovah for over 50 years. I was there when certain years were discussed as maybe the time of Christ’s return to establish his Kingdom on earth.....it was always a maybe, never a day or hour.Jane, the founders of your religion have been falsely claiming that the harvest was at hand for over a hundred+ years now, and it appears to be a habit the JWs cannot get out of as a result. I would like nothing better than if He were to be returning soon, but it is a delusion, based on errant eschatology.
We didn’t make up anything...but what we discerned by a study of the original languages of the Bible, something very interesting that explains everything.Don't....repeat after the mistakes of the founding fathers of your faith, and then have to make up a doctrine about how the Lord actually came "spiritually" to cover for it. We still have a long ways to go yet, and if you live long enough you will find out I am right.
They are applied very well to both time periods, so I don’t know how you can say that.Correct, and this is at least one thing we can agree on. But your interpretations focus so heavily on modern applications that these same interpretations make them untenable to the people they were originally spoken to. You need to be able to apply interpretations that would have made sense for them then, not just sense for us today.
Jesus promised, “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:14) Does this promise mean that now is the only time of salvation for all people? The common words ALL and EVERY are two of the most important words in the Bible. In Luke 2:10 the angel who announced the birth of Jesus said, “Behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people.” Verses 30 and 31 speak of salvation for “ALL people.” 1 Timothy 4:10 speaks of God as “the Saviour of ALL men.”
The simple logic of Jesus dying for ALL is found in 1 Corinthians 15:22: “As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” Similarly, Romans 5:18 shows that “by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift came upon ALL men.” Father Adam sinned with the unborn race yet in his loins. Therefore, ALL were born in sin and shapen in iniquity (Psalm 51:5) and thus worthy of death. God knew that Adam, due to a lack of experience would disobey. Thus 1 Peter 1:19,20, speaks of the blood of Christ as being foreordained for our redemption even before Adam was created. Since ALL were lost in Adam, it was necessary that Jesus “by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man” (Hebrews 2:9).
John 1:7 speaks of Jesus as “the Light, that ALL men through him might believe.” Verse 9 says he is “the True Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.” How can this be? Countless millions died before the time of Jesus. They never saw the True Light! They never heard the name of Jesus. And since the death of Jesus, millions died never hearing of the only “name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). If you are a Bible-believing Christian, you know that no one is saved through ignorance but only by believing in Jesus as his or her saviour. This is a seeming contradiction. The answer is found in 1 Timothy 2:5,6, “. . .Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time”-a plain statement that Jesus died for “ALL.” If Jesus died for “ALL,” why is it that ALL do not have the opportunity to hear this good news? The key of harmony is found in the phrase “due time.” The Greek word translated “time” is plural; i.e., times (Thayer’s Lexicon of the New Testament). The knowledge that Jesus is a ransom for ALL will be testified “in due times.” The due time for those God is calling to be of the Church is during the Christian Age. The due time for ALL other people to understand is during the 1,000-year reign of Christ.
Now is not the time for ALL to hear the name of Jesus. God is not trying to convert the world between the first and second advents. If He was, then He has obviously failed. For after nearly 2,000 years, less than one third of the world’s population even claims to be Christian. The fact is Jesus predicted only that the gospel would be a witness to the world, not that all would be converted before the end of the Age.
Mark 4:11,12, specifically states that God is not trying to convert the world now. Jesus said to his disciples, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without all these things are done in parables. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.” Ponder well this scripture.
If Jesus died for ALL, why has God arranged that many would not be able to understand the Bible and, therefore, not be converted and have their sins forgiven? The Bible is not written like a textbook system of logic. God purposely had the Bible written in parables and symbols, so that many would not be converted and have their sins forgiven. This is why there are over 250 Christian denominations with so many different interpretations of the Bible. God has not attempted to convert the world, but is only calling a “little flock” at this time. If man’s eternal destiny was dependent upon understanding the Bible now, our God of love (1 John 4:8) would have surely made the Bible plain and simple for all to understand.
Acts 15:14-17 reveals that “God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name [not to convert all]. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, after this I will return [Second Advent] and build again the tabernacle of David [set up the kingdom of God]… that the residue [REMAINDER] of men might seek after the Lord and ALL the Gentiles….” God’s work since the death of Jesus has not been to convert all humankind, but merely to take out or to call out a “people for his name.” In the Kingdom, all the REMAINDER of men, who are not of these called out ones, will have their opportunity to seek the Lord.
I believe that you may be reading that a little differently to me....
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matthew 23:37-39 ESV)
You see that little word there....? “UNTIL”....he doesn’t say that they will see him again “WHEN” they say “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.
Are you serious?
“Simon Magus, also known as Simon the Sorcerer or Simon the Magician, was a religious figure whose confrontation with Peter is recorded in Acts 8:9–24. The act of simony, or paying for position, is named after Simon who tried to buy his way into the power of the Apostles.” That Simon? Good grief!!!
If the only mention of this man is as an example of what not to be and to do.....then what is your point?
Actually, we haven’t been claiming anything of the sort. Now your ignorance is telling. I have been a Witness of Jehovah for over 50 years. I was there when certain years were discussed as maybe the time of Christ’s return to establish his Kingdom on earth.....it was always a maybe, never a day or hour.
According to Jesus he applied it to the "Israel" that he was condemning in Matthew 23.According to you, this is a Psalm about the rejection of earthly Israel?
You really have a problem with JW's don't you? You express the same distaste that I have for Christendom....from which I fled because of their disgusting doctrines and absolute hypocrisy. Now are you going to tell me that you know more than God's word teaches us....despite Jesus constant reference to God's word...he answered the devil's temptations with "it is written" and Paul told us not to "go beyond what is written"....so you know better huh?The JW position rearing its ugly head again:
"We go by scripture only, and if scripture doesn't say something, then it's a "hidden mystery" we have no clue about since the Spirit of God has not been given unto us to lead us into all truth" - Sincerely yours, the Watchtower Society.
Jane, do you realize just how many times you would have to go through this exercise of piously defending ignorance because "while we have no clue, the one thing we are absolutely certain about is that early church tradition is a lie."
Oh, I thought you might go digging in the pig's trough.....it indicates the depths that people who have no answers always resort to.It was always a maybe?
1. We consider it an established truth that the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, WILL be accomplished by 1914. (The Time is at Hand, 1906 edition)
2. The battle of the great day of God Almighty, which WILL end in AD 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced. (The Time is at Hand, 1909 ed., P.101)
3. With the end of 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, WILL have passed away, as already shown from prophecy. (Thy Kingdom Come, 1907 ed, P.153)