"Milk" is Doctrine, "Meat" is.....?

[bbyrd009]

Too intoxicating?

ya, or something like that? Just…giving info that one cannot really hear yet

This phrase you post so frequently has always troubled me in that it sounds like it's quoting the Bible and it's not, having subtly changed the actual thing that is said, so that it sounds like a refutation of a key element of Christianity

no son of man may die for another’s sins is in a couple places, but right out of the Bible, verbatim

"Die for another's sins", is that to be understood as meaning penal substitution? Do you mean in a causal sense? "Cursed is the ground for your sake", that is to say, "Cursed is the ground because of you". Jesus died because we sinned . . . And that was the way He could rescue us. Is it meant that way?

There is a certain ambiguity in your statement. And I can't go the Bible to clarify it, because that's not what it says. It says something similar, but not that.

well…you say “Jesus died bc we sinned,” but see, you cannot really Quote that, absent “Christ” anyway, Christ died for our sins though. As for the rest, the penal substitution part, i dont know, but i do know that No son of man may die for another’s sins, x2 for a witness, and you should be interpreting that how you feel led imo; the best refute seems to be that Jesus, as a Son, was able to die for us bc we are not His father, but i find that pretty weak—Jesus is after all a spiritual “father” to us, imo

And the whole cult of sol thing, it's like, whenever we start to have what I feel is meaningful discussion . . . well, at the end of the day, I suspect my ideas of what you mean with that are completely off base

well, the cult of sol was the leading religion of the day i guess, and it held that “afterlife” in the Elysian Fields was only for a select few, and i am 90% convinced that the NT was written with this belief in mind. Everyone else was considered “greys,” or what we might call “water,” or even “the sea” in Scriptural terms, but tbh it was what i learned from rabbis that had the most impact there.

I should prolly stress again that cult of sol is not “bad” imo, Jesus gave some of the highest praise to the Roman Centurion, and i am in a “cult” imo right now, “cult” is not a bad word, i equate it with the Scriptural “tree,” or like “Oaks of Mamre,” wherein oaks are almost surely…not the best trees to be from, but the Bible seems to acknowledge that evabody gotta start somewhere. I forget where i picked up “oaks bad,” guess inshoulda held onto that one. Ps, “eagles” suck too i guess lol

 

[bbyrd009]

But just an opinion but to me they are not the same …knowledge puffs up, charity edifies. Could be wrong but that would be like saying the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit are the same, when they are so different?

ok you are getting that “puffed up” is prolly not a good thing, right

 

[marks]

Makes me think of:
John 4:31-34 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. [32] But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that you know not of. [33] Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? [34] Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

point is, what you are suggesting is they are talking about meat for the belly, then He is talking about something else?

These all look like they would be translated food, in that they are not from carn, or "meat"

Few understand what the meat of the Word is or means. The writer of Hebrews equates the meat with the "word of righteousness" (Hebrews 5:12-13)

So then, meat in Hebrews 5:12 & 14 is from 'stereas trophes', 'solid nourishment'.

Another word I'm seeing translated "meat" in my beloved KJB is "broma", food in general, and "kreas", butchered meat.

It looks like a lot of these places translated meat are more of food in general, and some of them are about the nourishment.

Interesting!

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

contrasted with ‘destroy not that weak brother whom Christ died for.’ And here Paul is saying ‘when we are weak, you are strong. And this also we wish, even your perfection.’ Do that which is honest? to me that is what He means by edification. Because in looking at the model He became weak that others could be made strong?

well, i certainly wouldn’t be telling a 6 year old singing “Jesus loves me” that Jesus of Nazareth likely equates to “John Doe, from Nowhere,” or i guess for that matter a 60 year old singing that, or now even the (highly detestable, imo) “When we all get to heaven” which is, imo, straight from hell

 

[bbyrd009]

These all look like they would be translated food, in that they are not from carn, or "meat"



So then, meat in Hebrews 5:12 & 14 is from 'stereas trophes', 'solid nourishment'.

Another word I'm seeing translated "meat" in my beloved KJB is "broma", food in general, and "kreas", butchered meat.

It looks like a lot of these places translated meat are more of food in general, and some of them are about the nourishment.

Interesting!

Much love!

that is, to me, why a Lex or interlinear is basically essential for any real understanding

 

[marks]

no son of man may die for another’s sins is in a couple places, but right out of the Bible, verbatim

?

Much love!

 

[marks]

that is, to me, why a Lex or interlinear is basically essential for any real understanding

I wouldn't be without them!

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Makes me think of:
John 4:31-34 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. [32] But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that you know not of. [33] Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? [34] Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

point is, what you are suggesting is they are talking about meat for the belly, then He is talking about something else?

i would say obviously, riht? And not only that, the NT is full of little hints that mostly go completely unQuoted, that indicate who “Jesus” really is, only we dont see them bc they conflict with what we are taught, …when here I am right in front of you, lots of others

 

[marks]

So are we talking about the passages that talk about our food in general? The "strong nourishment" of Hebrews 5? The "food in general" that offends in Corinthians? The "temple cuts" that Paul won't eat again if someone is offended?

It seems there are some distinctions between passages which are being looked at as the same.

Always very interesting!

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

View attachment 18317

?

Much love!

Ezekiel 18:20 Lexicon: "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Psalm 49:7 Lexicon: No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him--

so, not sure which tranny goes exactly like i Quote it, and i think its one other place as well, but my guess is it isnt showing up in your engine bc that version just isnt in there maybe? I just plug it into google tbh, even over the Biblehub search bar. Ah, plus they are all OT :)

 

[marks]

Ezekiel 18:20 Lexicon: "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Psalm 49:7 Lexicon: No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him--

Those don't say what you said. Christ died for our sins.

1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

What does the Meat of the Word mean to you and how does one begin to digest that meat?
Is there a certain realization or experience that moves us from Milk to meat? A condition in mankind that is prone to division that must be overcome? If so explain.

'Meat' is not even describable in a way that can be understood by those thrashing around in the milk pond. The copious repetitive thrashing reveals this.

 

[MatthewG]

In the groups where I attended for many years up until 2018, many of the ministers and other members have lengthy studies in place covering the principle doctrines I separated with numbers. From there can we move or be moved toward perfection? Can we become overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer? What happens to anyone who does not so overcome?

Am reminded of this scripture;


“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”
‭‭I John‬ ‭5:1-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If someone doesn’t overcome something in their flesh; am reminded of this scripture.


“And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭12:7-10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Gods grace is sufficient: keeping faith.

Was reading many comments interesting dialogue. All I know is that everyone has to make the choice to either have faith, or not have faith… many people have to decide how they will live their life and what they will do with it. To simply share Christ Jesus there is nothing wrong with that.

Preaching from my understanding is only for those who are unbelieving and have no faith.

Teaching is for those who have faith and are eager to learn more about God and grow in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I know it’s been tough in my life and sometimes can become shot down in my old thinking when.it comes down to teaching about anything that has to do with hell, or destruction of the wicked and how am I to teach it being lead by the Holy Spirit with full trust in God to help me understand these things are all pertaining to. Many with the destruction though is talking about the nation of Israel.

God chosen people: God even himself blinded people so they couldn’t tell where they were going maybe because of their own desires (Romans 11 I believe).

These things sometimes creep into my mind and make me question God however God deals with “his” people how he chooses to. Am very thankful Revelation is complete ; and was reading Samuel before coming on here and I liked what Hannah has prayed.

“And Hannah prayed and said: “My heart rejoices in the Lord; My horn is exalted in the Lord. I smile at my enemies, Because I rejoice in Your salvation. “No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God. “Talk no more so very proudly; Let no arrogance come from your mouth, For the Lord is the God of knowledge; And by Him actions are weighed. “The bows of the mighty men are broken, And those who stumbled are girded with strength. Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread, And the hungry have ceased to hunger. Even the barren has borne seven, And she who has many children has become feeble. “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up. He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. “For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He has set the world upon them. He will guard the feet of His saints, But the wicked shall be silent in darkness. “For by strength no man shall prevail. The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken in pieces; From heaven He will thunder against them. The Lord will judge the ends of the earth. “He will give strength to His king, And exalt the horn of His anointed.””
‭‭I Samuel‬ ‭2:1-10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The wicked shall be silent in darkness. This is the case it brings me back in the abstraction that Revelation 22 and those who are without being left outside the city are out in darkness silent, or doing whatever they do.

It’s just extremely hard to teach and sometimes my mind wonders.

Take care everyone : until next time.
Matthew G.

 

[MatthewG]

On a side note I would throw in the Leviticus and the Law which God couldn’t go against, when Moses gave it to the nation of Israel right?

God is not a despite. God is love, is good, holy, just, and righteous. God is a God that can not lie. And in him is no darkness.

Just two more cents to throw in there. And if anyone has some insights please pm them to me or it’s fine I’ll ask God and he will lead me.

It tough out here you guys, much love. Take care.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So are we talking about the passages that talk about our food in general? The "strong nourishment" of Hebrews 5? The "food in general" that offends in Corinthians? The "temple cuts" that Paul won't eat again if someone is offended?

It seems there are some distinctions between passages which are being looked at as the same.

Always very interesting!

Much love!

are they not same? (I mean they are similar to each other) I get what you mean by ‘food in general’ that offends in Corinthians and ‘temple cuts’ Paul won’t eat is someone is offend.

both of those passages …are they ultimately the same message as ‘the solid food’ of Hebrews 5. To discern good and evil? But solid food is for fullgrown men, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

point is, if the focus is so much on what meat is those passages speaking of ‘actual food’ …it (Imo) looses that the message in all of them is still the same; that Paul was speaking of the same ‘solid food’ ‘exercised to discern good and evil’ in how he was to treat a weak brother whom Christ died for.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the new man is a real person who is newly born from God.

The new man is your spirit in union with God's Spirit. That union is why God looks at you and sees the righteousness and perfection of Christ, and not the dirtiness of your sin guilt (that has been forgiven). That happened the moment you believed and the Spirit came into you.

That same union with the Holy Spirit causes you to think and act different. Now that takes time. That is the righteousness we are growing up into—how we actually think and act. That righteousness will be working it's way through the dough of your natural body for the rest of your natural life.

 

[marks]

The new man is your spirit in union with God's Spirit. That union is why God looks at you and sees the righteousness and perfection of Christ, and not the dirtiness of your sin guilt (that has been forgiven). That happened the moment you believed and the Spirit came into you.

That same union with the Holy Spirit causes you to think and act different. Now that takes time. That is the righteousness we are growing up into—how we actually think and act. That righteousness will be working it's way through the dough of your natural body for the rest of your natural life.

So then you don't think of the new man as a new creature, more that who we are before knowing Christ becomes changed by being joined to Him? Is that fair to say?

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

Yes Marks it is the new inner man/woman that is created to be like Christ Jesus, its the new creature : now you have duality of life. Your spiritual being that is created in Christ and your natural being which was created by God (our flesh). Soul / Mind - heart/will/emotion

 

[marks]

are they not same? (I mean they are similar to each other) I get what you mean by ‘food in general’ that offends in Corinthians and ‘temple cuts’ Paul won’t eat is someone is offended…what is offended, because even the definition of ‘offended’ can mean more than one thing. For instance afraid or caring what others will say or think of us so out of fear of loss of image or afraid to be made to look a fool, we avoid because it may offend someone. Or, there seems to be another definition of offended in that passage of ‘wounding their weak conscience toward’ God which has nothing to do with the fear of men but the fear of God instead. (Imo)

second) both of those passages …are they ultimately the same message as ‘the solid food’ of Hebrews 5. But solid food is for fullgrown men, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

point is, if the focus is so much on what meat is those passages speaking of …it (Imo) looses that the message in all of them is still the same; that Paul was speaking of the same ‘solid food’ “exercised to discern good and evil” in how he was to treat a weak brother whom Christ died for.

Yes, I think there is a lot of overlap in message and application. I just find it interesting the comments being posted about the particular words used, and those words being from various Greek words.

In the one case, the food in general is the overall idea, and the temple cuts the specific case. I think the "strong nourishment" of Hebrews' mention is the understanding we have that we don't have to satisfy our every urge just because we can, but that we're here for them, and not ourselves.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

100 alright it was good to let some things out.

You all take care. Good night.

The new man is your spirit in union with God's Spirit. That union is why God looks at you and sees the righteousness and perfection of Christ, and not the dirtiness of your sin guilt (that has been forgiven). That happened the moment you believed and the Spirit came into you.

That same union with the Holy Spirit causes you to think and act different. Now that takes time. That is the righteousness we are growing up into—how we actually think and act. That righteousness will be working it's way through the dough of your natural body for the rest of your natural life.