Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

[Hidden In Him]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11? The following is just a thread I'm creating without having fully formulated my conclusion yet, though I do believe I know based on the context. But I thought I would posit it as food for thought while mulling it over.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Here is the context in Romans:

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump also; and if the root is holy, so the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Romans 11:16-28)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, I've thought long and hard about this for some time, and have only relatively recently landed upon something somewhat satisfying to myself--don't really know how right I may be? Most Christians tend to disagree with me on this and on many other interpretations, anyway. So I'll just throw it out there.

When Paul wrote this, the "Church" had begun with the Jewish people, and the only collective national body representing God's People was Israel. God's People, therefore, at that time could be called "Israel," even though the nation was in the process of falling away.

Jesus had been rejected as their Messiah, and the Jewish People largely insisted on remaining under the Law of Moses, instead of accepting Jesus' sacrifice as covering not only their national sin but also their need for eternal redemption. Remaining under the Law disqualified them from eternal life, even though it had been designed to point them to redemption in Christ.

So when Paul used the "tree" symbolism it likely was a reference to the only collective national body that existed for God's People at that time, Israel. And Gentiles who came to Christ were viewed, by Paul, as being added to the "tree," Israel, even though Israel was falling away.

The transition was taking place from Israel to the Roman Nation, because Jesus said that the Jewish People had largely rejected him, and that the Kingdom of God would be given to another nation more worthy of it at that time. That was, I think, the Roman nation. European Civilization from that point on would become the new bearer of God's People, developing into many nations, just as God had promised to Abraham.

So the allegory would not hold as true today as it did in Paul's own time. In his day, Gentiles were grafted onto the nation of Israel, in a spiritual sense. But today, pagans are grafted onto their respective Christian nations, since many nations have now become Christian. Many nations have become "God's People," just as Israel had originally been called, "God's People."

But I do believe Israel will be restored, along with many Christian nations that are now falling away. So in the future, there will not be just one "tree" to be grafted onto, but rather, many trees, because there will not be just one nation for God's People, but rather, many nations.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I've thought long and hard about this for some time, and have only relatively recently landed upon something somewhat satisfying to myself--don't really know how right I may be? Most Christians tend to disagree with me on this and on many other interpretations, anyway. So I'll just throw it out there.

When Paul wrote this, the "Church" had begun with the Jewish people, and the only collective national body representing God's People was Israel. God's People, therefore, at that time could be called "Israel," even though the nation was in the process of falling away.

Jesus had been rejected as their Messiah, and the Jewish People largely insisted on remaining under the Law of Moses, instead of accepting Jesus' sacrifice as covering not only their national sin but also their need for eternal redemption. Remaining under the Law disqualified them from eternal life, even though it had been designed to point them to redemption in Christ.

So when Paul used the "tree" symbolism it likely was a reference to the only collective national body that existed for God's People at that time, Israel. And Gentiles who came to Christ were viewed, by Paul, as being added to the "tree," Israel, even though Israel was falling away.

The transition was taking place from Israel to the Roman Nation, because Jesus said that the Jewish People had largely rejected him, and that the Kingdom of God would be given to another nation more worthy of it at that time. That was, I think, the Roman nation. European Civilization from that point on would become the new bearer of God's People, developing into many nations, just as God had promised to Abraham.

So the allegory would not hold as true today as it did in Paul's own time. In his day, Gentiles were grafted onto the nation of Israel, in a spiritual sense. But today, pagans are grafted onto their respective Christian nations, since many nations have now become Christian. Many nations have become "God's People," just as Israel had originally been called, "God's People."

But I do believe Israel will be restored, along with many Christian nations that are now falling away. So in the future, there will not be just one "tree" to be grafted onto, but rather, many trees, because there will not be just one nation for God's People, but rather, many nations.

The Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews when they rejected the Chief Corner Stone in Jesus Christ

The Church is the Nation bringing forth the fruits

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, I've thought long and hard about this for some time, and have only relatively recently landed upon something somewhat satisfying to myself--don't really know how right I may be? Most Christians tend to disagree with me on this and on many other interpretations, anyway. So I'll just throw it out there.

When Paul wrote this, the "Church" had begun with the Jewish people, and the only collective national body representing God's People was Israel. God's People, therefore, at that time could be called "Israel," even though the nation was in the process of falling away.

Jesus had been rejected as their Messiah, and the Jewish People largely insisted on remaining under the Law of Moses, instead of accepting Jesus' sacrifice as covering not only their national sin but also their need for eternal redemption. Remaining under the Law disqualified them from eternal life, even though it had been designed to point them to redemption in Christ.

So when Paul used the "tree" symbolism it likely was a reference to the only collective national body that existed for God's People at that time, Israel. And Gentiles who came to Christ were viewed, by Paul, as being added to the "tree," Israel, even though Israel was falling away.

Up to this point right here I am in full agreement with you.

The transition was taking place from Israel to the Roman Nation, because Jesus said that the Jewish People had largely rejected him, and that the Kingdom of God would be given to another nation more worthy of it at that time.

Here we would part company, but only with your interpretation of that particular parable. I believe you are referring to the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen here (correct me if I'm wrong), and in it, Jesus said, "and he will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons." This was a reference to the apostles, who became the true spiritual leadership in Israel after His ascension. Maybe you are referring to something else, however.

But I do believe Israel will be restored, along with many Christian nations that are now falling away. So in the future, there will not be just one "tree" to be grafted onto, but rather, many trees, because there will not be just one nation for God's People, but rather, many nations.

Mmmm.. here we part company. I think there is one tree, as the parable intimates. We do agree Israel will be restored, and I think that's the real import of the teaching. If Israel and his children are the root, and the Israel the nation the branches with some being broken off from true "Israel" while some Gentiles being grafted in as true "Israel," this for starters blows the Historicist and Preterist interpretations of prophecy out the window. It also lays greater stress on a Christianity that preserves as much of Judaism as possible (without corrupting New Testament teaching).

 

[Hidden In Him]

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Ah, this is likely where Randy was getting his reference from. Thanks for posting. Yeah, the word translated here "nation" is the Greek word "ethos," from which we get our word "ethnic." So it is better translated "a people" here, since (as you say) it likely refers to those who became the church after the Lord's ascension. See my previous post.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Also of interest, gentlemen. As Gentiles, we tend to think the New Covenant was made primarily with us, but that is incorrect. The New Covenant was made primarily with the Jews, just as the Old one was:

He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 oNone of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (Hebrews 8:8-12)

 

[Brakelite]

The old covenant was given to a nation which failed ok two major counts. First, they abjectly failed to share the good news of God's covenantal love with anyone other than themselves. Second, they rejected the Lord of the covenant. The Son of God did not die for just Israel. He died for the whole world, from the beginning of time. It was always God's purpose that the gospel be shared with everyone, Israel being the first vehicle for that purpose. That work now rests upon the church,
KJV 1 Peter 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. From the beginning it has been God's plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fullness and His sufficiency. The members of the church, those whom He has called out of darkness into His marvelous light, are to show forth His glory.
The root of the olive tree is Christ himself.
KJV Isaiah 11:1-2
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
KJV Romans 15:12
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews when they rejected the Chief Corner Stone in Jesus Christ

The Church is the Nation bringing forth the fruits

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

This statement does not address the relevant points, though generally I could sign off on it. Israel has been temporarily rejected, and the international Church is now the "People of God." That does not address the possibility that Israel could be reinstated as God's People along with many Christian nations that have now also become "God's People." Abraham was promised both Israel and many nations. And so, I believe that all of these nations that have become or will become "Christian" make up the international Church promised to Abraham.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here we would part company, but only with your interpretation of that particular parable. I believe you are referring to the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen here (correct me if I'm wrong), and in it, Jesus said, "and he will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons." This was a reference to the apostles, who became the true spiritual leadership in Israel after His ascension. Maybe you are referring to something else, however.

Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Look at the Parable of the 2 Sons, immediately preceding this. In it "the tax collectors and the prostitutes" are those who do what their father wanted his 2 sons to do. This represents Jews in Israel who sinned and then repented, and even the Roman pagans who would eventually turn to Christianity, in my view.

These are not "apostles," who despite the fact we are all sinners and despite the fact Matthew was a tax collector, would not fit into the category of "tax collectors and prostitutes," in my opinion. But it's okay to disagree among brothers.

Mmmm.. here we part company. I think there is one tree, as the parable intimates. We do agree Israel will be restored, and I think that's the real import of the teaching. If Israel and his children are the root, and the Israel the nation the branches with some being broken off from true "Israel" while some Gentiles being grafted in as true "Israel," this for starters blows the Historicist and Preterist interpretations of prophecy out the window. It also lays greater stress on a Christianity that preserves as much of Judaism as possible (without corrupting New Testament teaching).

I'm not purely an "historicist," nor am I a "preterist," but both these schools do, I think, have something to say. Although the Olivet Discourse did make reference to Jesus' 2nd Coming, I think that the main gist of the Discourse was the imminent judgment being brought by God against Jerusalem in 70 AD. This would bring on an age-long Tribulation to the Jewish People, causing Jewish believers to suffer persecution.

At the same time, Jesus compared this tragedy to the entire age, and to issues all Christians face in their respective post-Christian nations. And it highlights what the purpose of the 2nd Coming is, which is to bring judgment once people have been adequately warned by the Gospel.

Yes, we agree that Israel will be restored, which will be, I think, at the 2nd Coming. But Gentiles are no longer being grafted onto the tree of Israel, as they appeared to do in the 1st century, when Israel still existed as a nation. It was just a figure representing God's People, which at that time only existed as a single nation. Today, God's People exist in the form of many peoples or nations, which I'm sure we should all agree on. In the book of Revelation we read that all nations will serve God.

Rev 15.4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[Truth7t7]

This statement does not address the relevant points, though generally I could sign off on it. Israel has been temporarily rejected, and the international Church is now the "People of God." That does not address the possibility that Israel could be reinstated as God's People along with many Christian nations that have now also become "God's People." Abraham was promised both Israel and many nations. And so, I believe that all of these nations that have become or will become "Christian" make up the international Church promised to Abraham.

Above you have the (Church as Gods people) and (Israel as Gods people)?

This is (Dual Covenant Theology) a false teaching, there is one covenant with man, the shed blood upon Calvary "The Church"

 

[Hidden In Him]

KJV Romans 15:12
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Excellent. I do believe that verse wins the case.

The old covenant was given to a nation which failed ok two major counts. First, they abjectly failed to share the good news of God's covenantal love with anyone other than themselves. Second, they rejected the Lord of the covenant. The Son of God did not die for just Israel. He died for the whole world, from the beginning of time. It was always God's purpose that the gospel be shared with everyone, Israel being the first vehicle for that purpose. That work now rests upon the church

Since I have you in this discussion, then, what is the Historicist position on Chapter 11:16-28 (particularly v.25-26)?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump also; and if the root is holy, so the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Romans 11:16-28)

 

[Hidden In Him]

But Gentiles are no longer being grafted onto the tree of Israel, as they appeared to do in the 1st century, when Israel still existed as a nation.

This all depends on eschatology. If He is coming as a deliverer of the nation when the Antichrist emerges (I am speaking from the Futurist standpoint here), then everything becomes relevant once more. The 144,000 are not spiritualized but are literal, physical descendants of the twelve tribes, and the Gentiles become secondary once more in the end-time prophetic scheme of things.

 

[marks]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11? The following is just a thread I'm creating without having fully formulated my conclusion yet, though I do believe I know based on the context. But I thought I would posit it as food for thought while mulling it over.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

This is pretty much where I'm at with this.

I pray God bless us with undertanding!

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

I believe that once we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, we become children of God, or daughter or son of God by growing in the spirit. I believe its indicated with the new convenant that people would be inducted as followers of the God of Israel - they would be grafted in because of the New Convenant that God created founded in Hebrews.

However there was a materialistic bride that Jesus was coming back to get back then who had been set apart from all others the church, would be spotless and without blemish, holy and right with God because they were set apart that being the 144,000 people of the 12 tribes that were all set apart for the bride - and Jesus was the husbandman of that bride to have been taken away before the wrath of God was poured out on that nation of Israel which was promised to happen as prophesied by the Old Testament Prophets, and Jesus Himself of that generation in that day in age, where God even blinded some.

I do not believe God blinds anyone anymore; however because of the victory of the Lord Jesus Christ and all people who are believers of the Gospel of Christ are grafted in to that Abarhamic faith - which all people barbarians, slaves, freeman, bondservant all are one in Christ Jesus now, and when it comes down to being of the faith founded in the Gospel of Christ about his death, burial and resurrection.

All people are in a spiritual state of the Garden of Eden, some who have turned from the truth, and some who have turned towards the truth of the Son of God. Since the return of Jesus back then in that generation.

Thoughts? Understand that I Could be wrong as well however this is my view of it. God did have a select chosen bride that was going to be spotless and blameless made ready for Christ at his coming.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is pretty much where I'm at with this.

I pray God bless us with undertanding!

Backlit zapped me with a verse from the same epistle I hadn't noticed. But that's what the discussions are good for. Better to be proven wrong in a supposition while still forming it in one's mind then get it stuck in your head and have to unlearn it later.

God bless, and any thoughts you have are welcome.

 

[Enoch111]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11?

Since the roots are inseparable from the trees to which they belong, "the root" as used by Paul represents believing Israel, and believing Israel was the foundation of the Church (Acts 2). Gentiles are grafted into "the good olive tree" of believing Israel, but they originated in "the wild olive tree" (outside Israel). The irony is that now the Gentiles are predominant in the Church.

 

[Hidden In Him]

However there was a materialistic bride that Jesus was coming back to get back then who had been set apart from all others the church, would be spotless and without blemish, holy and right with God because they were set apart that being the 144,000 people of the 12 tribes that were all set apart for the bride - and Jesus was the husbandman of that bride to have been taken away before the wrath of God was poured out on that nation of Israel which was promised to happen as prophesied by the Old Testament Prophets, and Jesus Himself of that generation in that day in age, where God even blinded some.

I do as well. This is the Futurist position on end-time eschatology. Backlit is a Historicist, so you will get an entirely different view of things from him.

I do not believe God blinds anyone anymore; however because of the victory of the Lord Jesus Christ and all people who are believers of the Gospel of Christ are grafted in to that Abarhamic faith - which all people barbarians, slaves, freeman, bondservant all are one in Christ Jesus now, and when it comes down to being of the faith founded in the Gospel of Christ about his death, burial and resurrection.

Some might find the phrase offensive, but I personally regard Christianity as an "Abrahamic faith" myself, though some might turn that into a long discussion.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Since the roots are inseparable from the trees to which they belong, "the root" as used by Paul represents believing Israel, and believing Israel was the foundation of the Church (Acts 2). Gentiles are grafted into "the good olive tree" of believing Israel, but they originated in "the wild olive tree" (outside Israel). The irony is that now the Gentiles are predominant in the Church.

This was the position I originally started from. However, I've had to reverse course as per Post #11.

That does not mean anyone else has to, however. I'm still hashing this discussion out to its final conclusions.

 

[TEXBOW]

I see this more simplistic. Only the Jewish people were given and offered the Gospel initially. Those Jews that believed formed the tree. By Gods grace us Gentiles were now offered salvation by faith. The Gentiles who believe are grafted in to the tree that was once not a possibility. Those Jews who didn't believe were cut off. We can be cut off too. A simple illustration of Jew and Gentile becoming one in Christ if we believe.

 

[marks]

I've read everything so far.

Here is a question I have.

What are the branches that are broken off? How do you think of that? It's plural, for one thing.

What are the branches that may be grafted back in? Are we speaking of individuals?

Much love!