Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

[MatthewG]

I do as well. This is the Futurist position on end-time eschatology. Backlit is a Historicist, so you will get an entirely different view of things from him.


Some might find the phrase offensive, but I personally regard Christianity as an "Abrahamic faith" myself, though some might turn that into a long discussion.

Thank you for your insights and thoughts, HiddeninHim. I am someone who really does believe that Jesus had already made his return, and God is now reigning.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I've read everything so far.

Here is a question I have.

What are the branches that are broken off? How do you think of that?

Much love!

In general, Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. But if the analogy were to be extended this far out, there were several "branches" of Judaism at the time; the Essenes, the Sadducees, the Pharisees. Certainly the Essenes and Sadducees rejected Him wholesale, since His doctrines were so averse to theirs.

There would also be the scribes and the priesthood, both of which might be considered "branches" of ancient Judaism, and both of which would have been disassociated from their religious professions had they received Him as Messiah.

 

[marks]

In general, Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. But if the analogy were to be extended this far out, there were several "branches" of Judaism at the time; the Essenes, the Sadducees, the Pharisees. Certainly the Essenes and Sadducees rejected Him wholesale, since His doctrines were so averse to theirs.

There would also be the scribes and the priesthood, both of which might be considered "branches" of ancient Judaism, and both of which would have been disassociated from their religious professions had they received Him as Messiah.

Subsets of Israel, that's crossed my mind also.

Much love!

 

[TEXBOW]

I've read everything so far.

Here is a question I have.

What are the branches that are broken off? How do you think of that? It's plural, for one thing.

What are the branches that may be grafted back in? Are we speaking of individuals?

Much love!

Worth study. It would seem since Paul was addressing "you Gentiles" Romans 11:13 it is a group not an individual so it makes more sense to me that a comparison between a group with another group is in play. Those broken off were Jews but I do not think it was their nationality was the issue, it was their unbelief. Because we are grafted in the only variable in play is belief or unbelief. (I think)...

 

[TEXBOW]

In general, Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. But if the analogy were to be extended this far out, there were several "branches" of Judaism at the time; the Essenes, the Sadducees, the Pharisees. Certainly the Essenes and Sadducees rejected Him wholesale, since His doctrines were so averse to theirs.

There would also be the scribes and the priesthood, both of which might be considered "branches" of ancient Judaism, and both of which would have been disassociated from their religious professions had they received Him as Messiah.

This is pretty deep. Never looked at the tree analogy like this before (Judaism, Essenes, Sadducees and Pharisees ) making up the branches. I see the tree only being made up of belief and unbelief. The Jew and Gentile filter was no longer relevant.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is pretty deep. Never looked at the tree analogy like this before (Judaism, Essenes, Sadducees and Pharisees ) making up the branches. I see the tree only being made up of belief and unbelief.

In a way, it was simply belief vs. unbelief, separated out into various "branches" if you will of those who did and those who didn't; the believing segment of Israel were those parts of the "tree" that continued on and the unbelieving parts were those that were lopped off.

The interesting thing is that if you think about it, during New Testament times that ended up being one pretty rough-looking "tree" after the Lord got through with it, because most of Israel did not believe; nor did a very significant portion of the Gentile world until much later. But the "tree" grew to far greater proportions in the next two millennium, in keeping with the Parable of the Mustard Seed... which further confirms Backlit's contention that Jesus is the root, IMO, because in the Parable of the Mustard Seed, Jesus is the seed, being only one "Man," and yet in Christ the church grew to tremendous proportions in the earth, in Him.

30 Then He said, “To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it? 31 It is like a Mustard Seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth; 32 but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade.” (Mark 4:30-32)

Today, Christianity has "branches" all OVER the place; the Baptists, the Catholics, the Presbyterians, The Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. It has indeed "shot out" branches in every direction.

 

[marks]

Worth study. It would seem since Paul was addressing "you Gentiles" Romans 11:13 it is a group not an individual so it makes more sense to me that a comparison between a group with another group is in play. Those broken off were Jews but I do not think it was their nationality was the issue, it was their unbelief. Because we are grafted in the only variable in play is belief or unbelief. (I think)...

That's my first reaction also, it's a group. I'm looking also at "a part of Israel was hardened", that this was the breaking off of branches. But the only breaking off? I don't know.

The impression I get as I read the passage is that these are groups, but then, why plural? The passage says they were broken off for unbelief. I have to ask what was the status before being broken off?

Is this what happened when they failed to transition to the New Covenant?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I see this more simplistic. Only the Jewish people were given and offered the Gospel initially. Those Jews that believed formed the tree. By Gods grace us Gentiles were now offered salvation by faith. The Gentiles who believe are grafted in to the tree that was once not a possibility. Those Jews who didn't believe were cut off. We can be cut off too. A simple illustration of Jew and Gentile becoming one in Christ if we believe.

This reflects part of my line of thinking, the question of how to read the passage in a "genre" sense.

Should we see this tree as a parable, where we take away this simple truth from some well known thing, grafting branches into trees? We become one in Christ.

Or is this a technical description of the process of the salvation of men across the centuries?

Into Abraham, or into Israel, or . . . ?

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

This statement does not address the relevant points, though generally I could sign off on it. Israel has been temporarily rejected, and the international Church is now the "People of God." That does not address the possibility that Israel could be reinstated as God's People along with many Christian nations that have now also become "God's People." Abraham was promised both Israel and many nations. And so, I believe that all of these nations that have become or will become "Christian" make up the international Church promised to Abraham.

Your response is somewhat allusive, there is one gate into the sheep fold "Jesus Christ" period

There wont be any renewal of the Jews as a separate people outside of Jesus Christ in salvation

When a person comes to this salvation they are called "Church" where there is neither Jew/Gentile

 

[Randy Kluth]

Above you have the (Church as Gods people) and (Israel as Gods people)?

This is (Dual Covenant Theology) a false teaching, there is one covenant with man, the shed blood upon Calvary "The Church"

No, I wouldn't agree. The Scriptures promise Abraham the nation Israel forever, along with many nations who will share the faith of Abraham. This is *not* false teaching, but is in the Bible.

The restoration of Israel is taught in Rom 9-11, and is insinuated in Acts 1.6-8. As well, it is insinuated that Israel is included when God promised "many nations" to Abraham. Why would Israel be excluded when Christ came to bring forgiveness to Israel? Jesus indicated that it would be an age-long process before Israel would be brought back to God.

Israel was "God's People" in the OT era, but they will be reinstated as "God's People" in the Millennial age, although no longer as an exclusive ethnic people. The national and racial boundaries have come down.

And even though national and racial distinctions remain, no people or nation is to be excluded as they were under the Old Covenant. They were excluded at that time only because the Gospel was not yet ready to be preached to pagan nations, to enable them to join Israel as "God's People."

 

[Hidden In Him]

Israel was "God's People" in the OT era, but they will be reinstated as "God's People" in the Millennial age

How all Israel will again belong to God is an interesting question to meditate on as a Futurist. I personally believe that what they and all of mankind witness at Armageddon and on the Day of the Lord will be so traumatic and with such devastating effects upon the unbelieving that it will become an easy thing for those Jews who remain to submit to the Messiah, especially after He comes in Power as their promised Deliverer. And once His kingdom is established on earth, it will become a societal norm to worship Him, especially when all the earth is coming to bow down annually. Under the conditions described by prophecy, it is not the least bit strange to think of "all Israel" being saved. But mankind has this way of always forgetting, which then causes history to repeat itself. That's why I believe Satan will be released after a thousand years have passed, to remind mankind one last time that all who would rebel against Him suffer destruction and perdition, and become a sad footnote in history.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, I wouldn't agree. The Scriptures promise Abraham the nation Israel forever, along with many nations who will share the faith of Abraham. This is *not* false teaching, but is in the Bible.

The restoration of Israel is taught in Rom 9-11, and is insinuated in Acts 1.6-8. As well, it is insinuated that Israel is included when God promised "many nations" to Abraham. Why would Israel be excluded when Christ came to bring forgiveness to Israel? Jesus indicated that it would be an age-long process before Israel would be brought back to God.

Israel was "God's People" in the OT era, but they will be reinstated as "God's People" in the Millennial age, although no longer as an exclusive ethnic people. The national and racial boundaries have come down.

And even though national and racial distinctions remain, no people or nation is to be excluded as they were under the Old Covenant. They were excluded at that time only because the Gospel was not yet ready to be preached to pagan nations, to enable them to join Israel as "God's People."

Yes we will disagree, you hold to the standard teachings of John N. Darby & C.I. Scofield in Dispensationalism's (Dual Covenant Theology) in (Two Peoples Of God) Israel/Church, found no place in scripture, a teaching in error

There is "One Covenant" between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary in salvation, those that obtain this salvation through faith become (The Church)

 

[marks]

How all Israel will again belong to God is an interesting question to meditate on as a Futurist. I personally believe that what they and all of mankind witness at Armageddon and on the Day of the Lord will be so traumatic and with such devastating effects upon the unbelieving that it will become an easy thing for those Jews who remain to submit to the Messiah, especially after He comes in Power as their promised Deliverer. And once His kingdom is established on earth, it will become a societal norm to worship Him, especially when all the earth is coming to bow down annually. Under the conditions described by prophecy, it is not the least bit strange to think of "all Israel" being saved. But mankind has this way of always forgetting, which then causes history to repeat itself. That's why I believe Satan will be released after a thousand years have passed, to remind mankind one last time that all who would rebel against Him suffer destruction and perdition, and become a sad footnote in history.

I see this being fulfilled at that time:

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

That all Israel that remain alive will be reborn, and ever after all their children are born alive in the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

Don’t forgot when Paul also said this,

Romans 9:6-7 - @Hidden In Him.

I believe that Romans 9-11 all need good context to sort through.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see this being fulfilled at that time:

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

That all Israel that remain alive will be reborn, and ever after all their children are born alive in the Spirit.

Much love!

Good quote. The later you get into Isaiah, the more the Chapters deal specifically with end-time Israel.

Don’t forgot when Paul also said this,
Romans 9:6-7 - @Hidden In Him.

Yes.

 

[marks]

Good quote. The later you get into Isaiah, the more the Chapters deal specifically with end-time Israel.


Yes.

Do you agree with my understanding of this? Or no?

@Randy Kluth , this is a question for you too. My post #33.
Much love!

 

[marks]

@Hidden In Him , I'm glad you posted this thread!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do you agree with my understanding of this? Or no?

Much love!

Yes. "from henceforth and for ever," appears to reference the time when the kingdom is established at the end of the age. And it's interesting that He will return unto them who, it is stated, turn from transgression in Israel, meaning He is not going to return for every Jew, but for those who either have or will be willing to purify themselves in Him.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

@Hidden In Him , I'm glad you posted this thread!

Thought-provoking : )

 

[APAK]

I see this being fulfilled at that time:

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

That all Israel that remain alive will be reborn, and ever after all their children are born alive in the Spirit.

Much love!

Curious marks, are you sure that Yahshua was slated to be the Redeemer of mankind, TWICE? The act of redemption (as the Redeemer) was completed on the Cross for ethnic Israel and all other nations nearly 2000 years ago. And then as we know, only a remnant of ethnic Israel turned to Christ after his work of redemption. This was the covenant with ethnic Israel, and it was executed. Isaiah 59:20-21.

When Yahshua returns again he will never return as a Redeemer again, that would be nonsense. He will come as a Conqueror.
Just saying....

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11?

Do not know if any one has posted this yet, but who is saying “I am the root” in the following?
I, Jesus have sent My angel to testify these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.
Revelation 22:16