HERESY?

[post]

If it means at variance with the essential teaching of Any church, then it seems to me that Christianity can be twisted to mean whatever we want it to.

not with any amount of intellectual honesty.
scripture prevents that. that is exactly why Rome of old wished to prevent the common literate man from being able to read scripture, and why the reformation happened.

if we believe anything false, the scripture condemns it.
the only Truth - the Narrow Way - harmonizes all of scripture.

take the american watchtower-society-disciples for example, which are rife in this forum: they deny Christ's divinity.
their argument is typically wholly centered around 'there is only one God'
but they ignore 10,000 clear proofs that Christ is equally God. proofs of this are literally on every page of the Bible.
what is the answer to this? they are false - the scripture condemns them clearly. the only intellectually honest way they can keep hold of their positions is to either change the Bible ((which they have attempted to do)) or to pretend most of the Bible doesn't exist.

the only answer that takes scripture seriously is that God is triune:
in Talmud, the LORD is God, The Angel of the LORD is God, and the Spirit of the LORD is God.
in the NT, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
and simultaneously in both, there is only one God; God is one.
do we have to fully comprehend this in order to believe it? nope.
but what we do know is that any doctrine that contradicts what is written, is wrong. the trinity does not contradict the Book - and it is a great mystery, but it arises because we believe every word of the Bible. that is not something man-made; it cannot be. it is beyond human understanding

 

[post]

Who understands the lesson of Nehushtan

heh, ever seen a vampire movie? where completely atheistic, wicked people, hold up a cross and it scares away the monster?

just like the serpent in the wilderness, the Son of Man must be lifted up. John 3:16 doesn't exist in a vacuum

 

[post]

The JW's have always reminded me of the Pharisees.
.

yes, and they are not alone in that.

but it is written that such a time would come - we should expect it, and when we can hardly find an honest man who really believes the truth, we should be thankful in this - in every situation! - because we know we are nearing the end

it is a truth, that scarcity makes a resource precious

 

[Cooper]

heh, ever seen a vampire movie? where completely atheistic, wicked people, hold up a cross and it scares away the monster?

just like the serpent in the wilderness, the Son of Man must be lifted up. John 3:16 doesn't exist in a vacuum

Not exactly like the serpent in the wilderness. Jesus gives life everlasting. Satan can perform miracles, 2 Corinthians 11:14 for example, but the end is death. So let us lift Jesus up in praise and worship for conquering sin, death, and finally Satan the serpent, on Calvaries Cross, doing what no graven image can.
.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Bible does not teach about 95% of what most “Christians” today, believe.

Spoken like a true cultist. LOL I was going to critique this post, point by point but it enough to say, no truth was written.
You point out what is not in Bible and add your own terms....the phrases "spirit being" is not in the Bible.
A horrible eternal punishment, whatever that may be is a clear and repeated teaching of Christ the God.
The Ecumenical Councils debated the nature of God and the substance of God...it was a fools folly because we do not know the nature and substance of God...comprehension being the primary difficulty. We do not know that nature to even call it spirit is like calling life on earth growing. God may change His nature and substance at will. Manifest in any manner, any where. He could walk the Mall as a man or soar over the mountains as an eagle....be the fly on the wall.

1st Corinthians 15:35-58
But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, everyone who is not in God’s “book of life” will perish in Gehenna.
Matthew 10:28....
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”

Most people know the first part of this scripture, like they do with John 3:16, but what is in the second part, that is not often mentioned.
What does it say? That God can “destroy” body and soul in Gehenna, which is not hell. It is a place called “the second death”....called that for a reason. It is a death from which no one is resurrected....unlike the first kind of death, inherited from Adam, it is eternal death which is contrasted with eternal life. No one ever comes out of that place where they are “destroyed”.

John 3:16
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

Those exercising faith in the son of God, will gain life, but those we don’t will not go to hell, but will “perish”....which means that they will be destroyed.


No, it is reference to the original Gehenna....Jerusalem’s rubbish dump, where the maggots had a never ending supply of food in that place. The fires were kept burning by the addition of brimstone. It was a symbolism, not an actual place.

The original Valley of Hinnom was used by apostate Israel to sacrifice their children in the fire to Molech...God’s response to that....complete disgust!
Jeremiah 7:21...
“They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”

If God stopped this practice because it would never occur to him to command such a thing, then why would he do that himself to his own children?


This is why Jesus said we had to get to “know the only true God and the one whom he sent, Jesus Christ”...(John 17:3)....if you believe that God would send souls to a torture chamber for all eternity, then you do not know him at all.


Who is “him”? I do not believe that “God” became a mere human because the Bible does not ever say that. I believe that God sent his “only begotten son” to become, not a mere human but a perfect sinless human who could redeem mankind by sacrificing his life for us. His sacrifice cancels out our sin. God never needed to leave heaven to rescue mankind. His willing servant, Jesus was more than willing to do whatever was necessary to undo all the damage caused by Satan and the ones he managed to deceived.


Now that right there, is all messed up. There are no “souls” in heaven....show me a single scripture that says so. Jesus’ in his pre-human existence was never a “soul”...he was a “spirit” which is something completely different according to the meaning of the original language words.

Jesus existed as a spirit being in heaven “with” his Father before Abraham was even born.
Being human did not automatically make Jesus sinful....was Adam sinful when God created him? No! Disobedience is what introduced sin and death.


I have no desire to go to heaven, because God never intended for any human to go to heaven, originally. He put us here on earth to live forever. We fear death because it was never meant to happen.

Adam’s sin was what caused death....so Jesus came as a perfect sinless human to buy back what Adam lost. The Kingdom of God with Christ as King, was for the purpose of reconciling sinful humans back with their God and Creator. Only those taken into the new covenant will go to heaven, whist the rest of us, including all who are resurrected, will slowly discard our sinful state and at the end of the 1000 year rule of God’s kingdom, will stand sinless for one final test. (Revelation 20:1-3)


We are to serve God....not the other way around. Jesus served his God and also served the interests of his disciples. God serves no one....that is why he is God.


We did no such thing....Adam sinned, we did not, that is why our inheritance is not fair, and why God sent Jesus to redeem us out of that situation. We have found ourselves in sinful flesh through no fault on our part. Sin can lead us into activities that will cause God to reject us. But he made his word available to those who wanted to stay in God’s favour, despite their sinful state, because he tells how not to sin. It’s also why God provided Jesus as a “mediator” so that communication with our God is still possible in spite of our sinful imperfections.


What????? No idea what that means....


The insinuation is that dead people are not really dead.....that some living, conscious part of them leaves to go somewhere else......and also that all Christians can go to heaven....neither of those things are true.....yet almost all of Christendom teaches that this is the truth.

The Bible does not teach about 95% of what most “Christians” today, believe. The “weeds” of Jesus parable have indeed done their job, substituting false beliefs that have distorted who God is, and why Jesus even came to offer his life. Any wonder there is such confusion!

When I was part of that confusion, I couldn’t understand any of it because it made no sense.....now that I have studied the Bible for myself, everything has an answer, and a place in the gigantic jigsaw puzzle we call this life. Now I understand where everything belongs. And it’s really quite simple, not complicated at all.....but Christendom has people believing that you need a degree in theology to understand it all....not so. The truth is so simple a child can understand it.

I stopped reading halfway through. Please learn to break up your posts

your first part is why Christianity is so divided. Lake of fire hell gahenna. Whatever you want to call it you say it’s not hell. Others say it is. who cares. It’s all the same place

as for a torture chamber. That’s what life apart from God is. They send themselves there. God is not willing that any should perish. It’s not Gods fault they chose to reject him eternal death is eternal. whether your or I like it or Not does not matter

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And you believe that do you? I’m sorry but none of that is true. But if you want to believe in a God that would torture people forever in a fire, with no way to escape, then go for it. That is not the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Not even close. Not a single punishment in the Law of God required torture or even incarceration. For goodness sake, do some research instead of parroting off Christendom’s tired old story. It’s been around so long that no one even questions it.

There is no heaven/hell scenario as opposite destinations in any part of scripture. Adam was not told that he would go to hell, in fact the concept of life after death was foreign to the Jewish nation who were never taught about immortal souls or places of eternal torture.
Jesus was Jewish and so he would not have taught something that was contrary to his Jewish faith or something that was not in Jewish scripture.

If Jesus never taught such a thing, then all those references mean something else. A little research will reveal the truth but only if you want to know it.....so many don’t. It’s easier to believe the lies than to learn an inconvenient truth.

You wrong in saying god tortures anyone

he gave them an out. They rejected it

 

[amadeus]

Nehushtan
of copper; a brazen thing a name of contempt given to the serpent Moses had made in the wilderness ( Numbers 21:8 ), and which Hezekiah destroyed because the children of Israel began to regard it as an idol and "burn incense to it." The lapse of nearly one thousand years had invested the "brazen serpent" with a mysterious sanctity; and in order to deliver the people from their infatuation, and impress them with the idea of its worthlessness, Hezekiah called it, in contempt, "Nehushtan," a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass ( 2 Kings 18:4 ).

Nehushtan Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Snake worship in the Temple of all places! They had a corner near the alter specially set aside.
.

Yes, all of that and for me or for others today?
What happens when people have done with their Bible or even with Jesus what the Israelites did with that brass snake on a pole?
Has anyone today done that?
Is anyone today doing that?

 

[post]

Yes, all of that and for me or for others today?
What happens when people have done with their Bible or even with Jesus what the Israelites did with that brass snake on a pole?
Has anyone today done that?
Is anyone today doing that?

or how about in the same way the people began to worship the bronze serpent that was lifted up, do people now worship humanity - as it was the man Christ Jesus who the second time was lifted, so that all who look to Him would receive life?

do people worship mankind?
isn't humanism the most common 'religion' in our day - even among the those who count themselves the church, aren't there many who boast in accomplishing their own salvation through the might of their own will and works?

and as Josiah cleansed the temple, destroying Nehushtan, will our King return to cleanse man from the earth?

=]

 

[Cassandra]

Question. Jesus Blood saves us from the second death, right?
John 3:16 says, in the last part, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
So eternal life is a gift from God for believers.


So, it looks like from this verse, that if you don't believe, you will perish.

But then, you never do?
Something is wrong.

 

[post]

There is no heaven/hell scenario as opposite destinations in any part of scripture. Adam was not told that he would go to hell, in fact the concept of life after death was foreign to the Jewish nation who were never taught about immortal souls or places of eternal torture.
Jesus was Jewish and so he would not have taught something that was contrary to his Jewish faith or something that was not in Jewish scripture.

have you never read what Jesus said about Lazarus the beggar, and the rich man?

Luke 16:19-31

Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom. he is alive, existing - tho separated from his body, which waits for resurrection unto life.
that rich man goes to hades, where he is in torment. he exists - he is not anihilated - and his body also will be resurrected, unto judgement.
they have both died, in the body, but they still have existence. they still talk, they still feel, they still think and they can see each other.

Jesus does not call this a 'parable' - and even if it is, is Christ in the habit of speaking parables that are full of lies?
does Jesus teach something contrary to the truth? is Jesus spreading myths?

 

[post]

have you never read what Jesus said about Lazarus the beggar, and the rich man?

Luke 16:19-31

Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom. he is alive, existing - tho separated from his body, which waits for resurrection unto life.
that rich man goes to hades, where he is in torment. he exists - he is not anihilated - and his body also will be resurrected, unto judgement.
they have both died, in the body, but they still have existence. they still talk, they still feel, they still think and they can see each other.

Jesus does not call this a 'parable' - and even if it is, is Christ in the habit of speaking parables that are full of lies?
does Jesus teach something contrary to the truth? is Jesus spreading myths?

could someone please repeat this for Jane -- pretty sure she decided to ignore me.

 

[Mantis]

Christ's primary command is "believe"
that is how we are saved - not by what we do, but by what we believe.

if we are believing false doctrines, but we do good works, then we are disobedient, and possibly not even saved, at all.
if we do not do the works we ought to do, but believe the Truth, then we are fools, and will eat the bread of fools, but we will have life.

I believe in Jesus but I don’t believe all of the doctrine taught. I don’t believe in a pre trib rapture. If I’m wrong I go to hell? I don’t think so.

 

[post]

I believe in Jesus but I don’t believe all of the doctrine taught. I don’t believe in a pre trib rapture. If I’m wrong I go to hell? I don’t think so.

yes,

our salvation depends on our beliefs about the person and work of Christ, not about our beliefs about eschatology

anyone who calls Christ a mere man? i do not believe they know Him at all - it seems apparent to me they do not have salvation.

anyone who thinks the church has replaced Israel or who thinks the 2nd coming happened already 2,000 years ago, or doesn't think the OT is relevant to us anympre? understanding such things correctly isn't what God says eternal life hinges on. He will bring us all into knowledge of the Truth, in His good time

 

[amadeus]

No response from me! Only posted as requested by Post:

Is that a Bible teaching, or is that an assumption? How and why are we made in God’s image?

Spirit means “breath”....man is a “soul” that is animated by “spirit”, (breath) when breathing ceases, the soul dies. Our “breath” does not go anywhere but out of our lungs. We have no thought processes after that. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The dead are actually dead.....as God said.

Have you ever sat with a person who took their last breath? I have and I can tell you that when the spirit is extinguished, when that last breath is exhaled, nothing of the person remains alive anywhere.

Can you scripturally prove otherwise?

could someone please repeat this for Jane -- pretty sure she decided to ignore me.

have you never read what Jesus said about Lazarus the beggar, and the rich man?

Luke 16:19-31

Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom. he is alive, existing - tho separated from his body, which waits for resurrection unto life.
that rich man goes to hades, where he is in torment. he exists - he is not anihilated - and his body also will be resurrected, unto judgement.
they have both died, in the body, but they still have existence. they still talk, they still feel, they still think and they can see each other.

Jesus does not call this a 'parable' - and even if it is, is Christ in the habit of speaking parables that are full of lies?
does Jesus teach something contrary to the truth? is Jesus spreading myths?

 

[Mantis]

yes,

our salvation depends on our beliefs about the person and work of Christ, not about our beliefs about eschatology

anyone who calls Christ a mere man? i do not believe they know Him at all - it seems apparent to me they do not have salvation.

anyone who thinks the church has replaced Israel or who thinks the 2nd coming happened already 2,000 years ago, or doesn't think the OT is relevant to us anympre? understanding such things correctly isn't what God says eternal life hinges on. He will bring us all into knowledge of the Truth, in His good time

Well I know him and that brings peace and comfort to me. He showed me how much he loves me. I am trusting that he will teach me all truth. And keep me in his hand. As far as I can tell he called me to be a pastor but I am wholly unqualified. I am still devouring the Bible daily after five years and every time I read it, it makes more sense. I pray to Holy Spirit to interpret. But I don’t agree with all the pastors I hear on the radio etc.
It makes me wonder how many pastors actually know Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

not with any amount of intellectual honesty.
scripture prevents that. that is exactly why Rome of old wished to prevent the common literate man from being able to read scripture, and why the reformation happened.

if we believe anything false, the scripture condemns it.
the only Truth - the Narrow Way - harmonizes all of scripture.

take the american watchtower-society-disciples for example, which are rife in this forum: they deny Christ's divinity.
their argument is typically wholly centered around 'there is only one God'
but they ignore 10,000 clear proofs that Christ is equally God. proofs of this are literally on every page of the Bible.
what is the answer to this? they are false - the scripture condemns them clearly. the only intellectually honest way they can keep hold of their positions is to either change the Bible ((which they have attempted to do)) or to pretend most of the Bible doesn't exist.

the only answer that takes scripture seriously is that God is triune:
in Talmud, the LORD is God, The Angel of the LORD is God, and the Spirit of the LORD is God.
in the NT, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
and simultaneously in both, there is only one God; God is one.
do we have to fully comprehend this in order to believe it? nope.
but what we do know is that any doctrine that contradicts what is written, is wrong. the trinity does not contradict the Book - and it is a great mystery, but it arises because we believe every word of the Bible. that is not something man-made; it cannot be. it is beyond human understanding

Hi Post...
Yes, we are "rife" with the witnesses here, aren't we?
Not only do they have their very own bible version and their very own doctrines
BUT
they write CHRISTIAN under their avatar.

This is unacceptable to me and to the Christian faith that has very specific beliefs,,,
and those beliefs will be upheld by real Christians for as long as we have breath to speak.

 

[Curtis]

Spirit means “breath”....man is a “soul” that is animated by “spirit”, (breath) when breathing ceases, the soul dies. Our “breath” does not go anywhere but out of our lungs. We have no thought processes after that. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The dead are actually dead.....as God said.

If our spirit merely means our breath, then God, who is a spirit, is only a breath.

Our spirit is not our breath. God the father has no body, therefore when He made us in His image, that can’t possibly be our body.

He’s a spirit, thus His image is a spirit, not a physical body, which scripture makes clear is our home that we leave at death, and is not US but a tent we wear.

If our spirit was only our breath, our respiration would cease at death, not return back to God:

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it is not adding the word practice, but is referring only to sins unto death - lawlessness. A Christian does not commit murder even once; it has nothing to do with not "practicing" murder! The erroneous doctrine came from not understanding the two types of sins.

This is why we have theologians and really should not be making up our own doctrine.

If 1 John 3:9 does not add the word PRACTICING.....which is generally accepted by Christianity that the intent is there...

Then could you please explain to us the difference between:

1 John 1:6-10
1 John 2:l

6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


Please note from the above:
1. THE BLOOD OF JESUS CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN .....what sin would that be? Cleanses is an on-going verb.
2. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES...this must mean we have sin.
3. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS....we confess sins and are forgiven sins.
4. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR.....so we must be sinning.

You will find the answer to this dilemma in verse 6....

Sins unto death - lawlessness
Sins not unto death - trespasses unwittingly committed.

You never replied to my question...
Give an example of a sin you do not know you are committing.

This is why in the Lord's Prayer, the sins a Christian asks forgiveness for are trespasses, and are only forgiven IF we forgive others their trespasses against us. It is not only commanded, it is expected that we live a pure life full of love and reconciliation.

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 Peter 1:15-16
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

And what does HOLY mean?
(can't seem to get a reply).

 

[GodsGrace]

Passover is a memorial of His death. He nowhere told us to memorialize His resurrection, but we are to remember his death by Communion.

Well,,,,
Apparently you don't know the history the Passover.
and Easter.

Jesus died on the Passover.
He was resurrected 3 days later.
The Apostles chose, after they saw Him alive again after seeing Him dead...
that they would celebrate the resurrection of Jesus.

It must have had a profound effect on them.