HERESY?

[JohnPaul]

Over 30,000 denominations, how could I ever pick....darts?! LOL Now I am not into a one world religion but you could say that I take the Baskin Robbins approach to denominations....31 flavors is enough. My ministry is to the best of those denominations even though they have their own issues.....Johnny Appleseed of truth....Well educated in all the aspects of Christianity. My favorites are the Holy Ghost churches and the Bethel churches and sometimes they are the same thing. I am a theologian and a historian, so I do not have just one denomination to pick.

I don’t have one neither.

 

[Grailhunter]

You consider Jehovah’s Witnesses as a religion that offers no help, lol.

And lol again, the most loving person on the forum, I sure as heck don’t get that feeling from you.

I answered your question regarding my denomination yet you fail to tell me yours when I asked you.

You cannot take a debate personally. I am a natural speaker and experienced in debating. I am a big OX and a gentle giant in church and just as much a kid as the rest of them....but when evil raises its ugly head....stand back for the show. I do not usually debate in church...my ministry is the Johnny Appleseed approach, planting seeds of truth and letting God take it from there. I go to church to fellowship with Christians and sing praise and worship to.....
Yahweh, God the Father, God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
Yeshua, God the Son of Yahweh, a full fledged God and Savior and Messiah of humanity.
The Holy Spirit, a unnamed God....but a full fledged God none the less. The God that guides us, strengthens us, and encourages us.

I do believe in the Trinity, just not the one God formula for it. Tri-unity...their unity...their accord....their existence on three thrones in that Heavenly Court....this unity is not one, but still this same unity that Christ said we all will have with God is hard to understand...because we do not have the details...or our minds cannot comprehend it........yet.

My Aunt was Jehovah's Witness and she was nice and lovable....And I would assume that you and Aunty Jane are nice people. That is not the point of the debate. Nice does not get you to Heaven.

 

[amadeus]

Ha! Guess you wouldnt believe me if i told you lol...

Perhaps that one is a bit remote and not directly stated in written scripture although it certainly is there? What that matters is not?

Who understands the lesson of Nehushtan, which is now, I believe, clearer in the Bible to me? But most Bible readers seem not to be familiar with it. I did not until some time ago, you my friend @bbyrd009 helped clarify it for me.

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps that one is a bit remote and not directly stated in written scripture although it certainly is there? What that matters is not?

Who understands the lesson of Nehushtan, which is now, I believe, clearer in the Bible to me? But most Bible readers seem not to be familiar with it. I did not until some time ago, you my friend @bbyrd009 helped clarify it for me.

i was gonna mention HiH's avatar, but didnt wanna get too personal lol

 

[bbyrd009]

I mentioned this in one of my posts when saying that Christ was also on Earth to save Gentiles who would believe in him and accept him, and not only Israelites.

ah, there was some debate, i take it?

 

[amigo de christo]

Ha! Guess you wouldnt believe me if i told you lol...

Depends . IF its truth i will believe it , if not i do as i do with all false doctrine , Shun it .
SO what is SOL .

 

[Philip James]

Passover is a memorial of His death. He nowhere told us to memorialize His resurrection, but we are to remember his death by Communion.

Hello Cassandra,

But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised.

And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.
Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.

For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,

and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

Communion is the memorial of His death AND resurrection and it is also so much more..

'when we eat this Bread and drink this Cup we proclaim Your death, Lord Jesus, and profess Your resurrection, until you come again.'

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum!

 

[bbyrd009]

Depends . IF its truth i will believe it , if not i do as i do with all false doctrine , Shun it .
SO what is SOL .

oh...you, me, pretty much everyone in here

 

[Aunty Jane]

Passover is a memorial of His death. He nowhere told us to memorialize His resurrection, but we are to remember his death by Communion.

The principle in 1 Corinthians 4:6 is “not to go beyond what is written“....this is a trap because it leads people to do what is not commanded, and it can complicate the things that we are commanded to do. One could well overshadow the other, reducing its importance.

Easter is not in the Bible and what Jesus did at his last Passover, was to inaugurate the new covenant for his followers. This partaking of the bread and wine replaced what was celebrated by the Jews in what led to their liberation from Egypt. Jesus was symbolised by the Passover lamb that was sacrificed on that night and whose blood on their doorposts saved their firstborn from the angel of death.

It is Christ’s blood, shed in our behalf that saves us. His resurrection, though important for his return to heaven, was not something we were told to observe.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus was symbolised by the Passover lamb that was sacrificed on that night and whose blood on their doorposts saved their firstborn from the angel of death.

Wrong again.
The Passover meal on Thursday was for Christ because He would not be able to attend the actual Passover meal that would occur on Friday evening. He died on the Cross about the time the Passover lambs were being killed on the evening before the Passover on Saturday.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Then Jesus referred to Lazarus as being "dead." This would indicate that Jesus was referring to his physical "body" - not his soul/spirit.

Since a “soul” is a living, breathing creature, when a soul ceases to breathe, it dies. Souls are not immortal. (Ezekiel 18:4) Who told you that they were?
So the “soul” that was Lazarus, “slept” in death in the place where Jesus found him. He called him out of his tomb and restored his life....he did that by repairing his decomposing body and restoring his breath. (spirit) So many have lost sight of what the true meaning of these words according to how the original language describes them.
God never gave humans an immortal soul.....humans become “souls” when they start breathing...and the breath in their lungs is the animating spirit that keeps us alive.

So what happened to Lazarus' soul you ask?

That is not what I asked....I asked where Lazarus himself was? Who wants us to believe that we “surely will not die”?...not God.
Lazarus was not alive, because death means exactly that....it is the cessation of life...who led you to believe otherwise?

Jesus has all power in heaven and on earth. But what happened to Lazarus' spirit Jesus does not tell us. However, since Paul said in 2Cor 5:8..."we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" I would say that the Son of God knew exactly where Lazarus' soul was and had the power to call it back "in the blink of an eye."

You are making assumptions here. Those of Christ’s “elect” are promised life in heaven, ruling as “kings and priests” with him in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) But not all Cristians are of the elect...these are chosen by God to rule over the redeemed ones of mankind on the earth....including those who will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) Only the elect will experience that transformation from earthly creature to spirit being. The Christian scriptures were written by, and for, those of “the chosen ones”. Those words you quoted do not apply to those who are not of the “elect”.

This we can be certain of because Lazarus was "at the table with [Jesus]" in John 12:1-2.

That is what the scripture says....some time after his resurrection, Jesus ate a meal with his friend. Jesus had restored his life he resumed his former place in his family. But at this meal, Judas showed his true dishonest disposition, accusing Mary of wasting money that could have been better spent. Jesus knew Judas was a thief and rebuked him.

We miss the point of Lazarus being dead for 4 days and being raised afterwards because the point he was making is that no matter how long our "dead bodies" (scripture refers to them as being "a tent". are in the grave we too will be raised and, if we believe that Jesus was "the Word became flesh" then our souls will be returned to glorified bodies.

I’m afraid you miss the point....the apostle Paul indicates that even those of the elect would have to wait until Christ’s return in order to experience their “first” resurrection. Until that time arrived, they would all “sleep” peacefully, aware of nothing that has happened since they closed their eyes, no matter how long ago they died. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

We see in these things the false teachings of Christendom, leading people in a completely different direction to what Christ and his apostles taught. What applies to those with “the heavenly calling” does not apply to the ones over whom they will rule....their subjects will be on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Immediate ‘life after death’ is a completely false expectation, according to my studies.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Rev says those who do not make it to heaven are cast into the lake of fire prepaired for satan and his angels.

Thats EVERYONE who is not granted eternal life

Yes, everyone who is not in God’s “book of life” will perish in Gehenna.
Matthew 10:28....
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”

Most people know the first part of this scripture, like they do with John 3:16, but what is in the second part, that is not often mentioned.
What does it say? That God can “destroy” body and soul in Gehenna, which is not hell. It is a place called “the second death”....called that for a reason. It is a death from which no one is resurrected....unlike the first kind of death, inherited from Adam, it is eternal death which is contrasted with eternal life. No one ever comes out of that place where they are “destroyed”.

John 3:16
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

Those exercising faith in the son of God, will gain life, but those we don’t will not go to hell, but will “perish”....which means that they will be destroyed.

The worm never dies is a symbol that whoever is there will be there but they will never cease.

No, it is reference to the original Gehenna....Jerusalem’s rubbish dump, where the maggots had a never ending supply of food in that place. The fires were kept burning by the addition of brimstone. It was a symbolism, not an actual place.

The original Valley of Hinnom was used by apostate Israel to sacrifice their children in the fire to Molech...God’s response to that....complete disgust!
Jeremiah 7:21...
“They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”

If God stopped this practice because it would never occur to him to command such a thing, then why would he do that himself to his own children?

No one is saved because they kept the Ten Commandments, because no one has.

And if your going to say worshiping the wrong God. You better look inside. Because you could be just as guilty.

This is why Jesus said we had to get to “know the only true God and the one whom he sent, Jesus Christ”...(John 17:3)....if you believe that God would send souls to a torture chamber for all eternity, then you do not know him at all.

Then why do you offend him by making him a mere mortal?

Who is “him”? I do not believe that “God” became a mere human because the Bible does not ever say that. I believe that God sent his “only begotten son” to become, not a mere human but a perfect sinless human who could redeem mankind by sacrificing his life for us. His sacrifice cancels out our sin. God never needed to leave heaven to rescue mankind. His willing servant, Jesus was more than willing to do whatever was necessary to undo all the damage caused by Satan and the ones he managed to deceived.

The soul of the human called Jesus existed before abraham, I would not call that flawed.

Jesus never sinned, not even once. I would not call that flushed

Now that right there, is all messed up. There are no “souls” in heaven....show me a single scripture that says so. Jesus’ in his pre-human existence was never a “soul”...he was a “spirit” which is something completely different according to the meaning of the original language words.

Jesus existed as a spirit being in heaven “with” his Father before Abraham was even born.
Being human did not automatically make Jesus sinful....was Adam sinful when God created him? No! Disobedience is what introduced sin and death.

Jesus suffered death, Because that the price he had to pay so you and I could have a chance to get to heaven. I would not call that flawed. I would call that perfect. Because he had the perfect love that no flawed human ever had.

I have no desire to go to heaven, because God never intended for any human to go to heaven, originally. He put us here on earth to live forever. We fear death because it was never meant to happen.

Adam’s sin was what caused death....so Jesus came as a perfect sinless human to buy back what Adam lost. The Kingdom of God with Christ as King, was for the purpose of reconciling sinful humans back with their God and Creator. Only those taken into the new covenant will go to heaven, whist the rest of us, including all who are resurrected, will slowly discard our sinful state and at the end of the 1000 year rule of God’s kingdom, will stand sinless for one final test. (Revelation 20:1-3)

He created us to serve us in a relationship.

We are to serve God....not the other way around. Jesus served his God and also served the interests of his disciples. God serves no one....that is why he is God.

We rebelled that creation, which caused our fall.

We did no such thing....Adam sinned, we did not, that is why our inheritance is not fair, and why God sent Jesus to redeem us out of that situation. We have found ourselves in sinful flesh through no fault on our part. Sin can lead us into activities that will cause God to reject us. But he made his word available to those who wanted to stay in God’s favour, despite their sinful state, because he tells how not to sin. It’s also why God provided Jesus as a “mediator” so that communication with our God is still possible in spite of our sinful imperfections.

You try to go into a dark room for a year and never come out and never have any human interaction. Then tell me how you would handle that.

What????? No idea what that means....

I did not insinuate anything you said here.

The insinuation is that dead people are not really dead.....that some living, conscious part of them leaves to go somewhere else......and also that all Christians can go to heaven....neither of those things are true.....yet almost all of Christendom teaches that this is the truth.

The Bible does not teach about 95% of what most “Christians” today, believe. The “weeds” of Jesus parable have indeed done their job, substituting false beliefs that have distorted who God is, and why Jesus even came to offer his life. Any wonder there is such confusion!

When I was part of that confusion, I couldn’t understand any of it because it made no sense.....now that I have studied the Bible for myself, everything has an answer, and a place in the gigantic jigsaw puzzle we call this life. Now I understand where everything belongs. And it’s really quite simple, not complicated at all.....but Christendom has people believing that you need a degree in theology to understand it all....not so. The truth is so simple a child can understand it.

 

[Curtis]

Yes, everyone who is not in God’s “book of life” will perish in Gehenna.
Matthew 10:28....
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”

We are body soul and spirit. It’s the spirit that’s eternal since God made us in His image, and He’s an eternal spirit.

 

[Instant]

@Aunty Jane, you are very confused when it comes to theology. When anyone dies, their spirit goes to heaven or hell, and their body goes to the grave waiting on the resurrection. Jesus spoke of a literal hell that is so bad, it would be better to cut off your hand or foot or even pluck out your eye if those things would keep you out of Heaven and wind up there. It is a place Jesus says, where the soul is eaten by worms assigned to them. It is a place of torment, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hell is a real place and so is Heaven.

There are things being taught that are not in the Bible. I know that, because I have read it more than 20 times. You said you have studied it for yourself. Have you read it cover to cover? How many times? If you had, you should have seen all the references to a place of torment called Hell and Outer Darkness. You would also see that eventually, Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. That is a literal place too.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane, you are very confused when it comes to theology. When anyone dies, their spirit goes to heaven or hell, and their body goes to the grave waiting on the resurrection. Jesus spoke of a literal hell that is so bad, it would be better to cut off your hand or foot or even pluck out your eye if those things would keep you out of Heaven and wind up there. It is a place Jesus says, where the soul is eaten by worms assigned to them. It is a place of torment, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hell is a real place and so is Heaven.

There are things being taught that are not in the Bible. I know that, because I have read it more than 20 times. You said you have studied it for yourself. Have you read it cover to cover? How many times? If you had, you should have seen all the references to a place of torment called Hell and Outer Darkness. You would also see that eventually, Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. That is a literal place too.

And you believe that do you? I’m sorry but none of that is true. But if you want to believe in a God that would torture people forever in a fire, with no way to escape, then go for it. That is not the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Not even close. Not a single punishment in the Law of God required torture or even incarceration. For goodness sake, do some research instead of parroting off Christendom’s tired old story. It’s been around so long that no one even questions it.

There is no heaven/hell scenario as opposite destinations in any part of scripture. Adam was not told that he would go to hell, in fact the concept of life after death was foreign to the Jewish nation who were never taught about immortal souls or places of eternal torture.
Jesus was Jewish and so he would not have taught something that was contrary to his Jewish faith or something that was not in Jewish scripture.

If Jesus never taught such a thing, then all those references mean something else. A little research will reveal the truth but only if you want to know it.....so many don’t. It’s easier to believe the lies than to learn an inconvenient truth.

 

[Cooper]

Perhaps that one is a bit remote and not directly stated in written scripture although it certainly is there? What that matters is not?

Who understands the lesson of Nehushtan, which is now, I believe, clearer in the Bible to me? But most Bible readers seem not to be familiar with it. I did not until some time ago, you my friend @bbyrd009 helped clarify it for me.

Nehushtan
of copper; a brazen thing a name of contempt given to the serpent Moses had made in the wilderness ( Numbers 21:8 ), and which Hezekiah destroyed because the children of Israel began to regard it as an idol and "burn incense to it." The lapse of nearly one thousand years had invested the "brazen serpent" with a mysterious sanctity; and in order to deliver the people from their infatuation, and impress them with the idea of its worthlessness, Hezekiah called it, in contempt, "Nehushtan," a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass ( 2 Kings 18:4 ).

Nehushtan Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Snake worship in the Temple of all places! They had a corner near the alter specially set aside.
.

 

[Aunty Jane]

We are body soul and spirit. It’s the spirit that’s eternal since God made us in His image, and He’s an eternal spirit.

Is that a Bible teaching, or is that an assumption? How and why are we made in God’s image?

Spirit means “breath”....man is a “soul” that is animated by “spirit”, (breath) when breathing ceases, the soul dies. Our “breath” does not go anywhere but out of our lungs. We have no thought processes after that. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The dead are actually dead.....as God said.

Have you ever sat with a person who took their last breath? I have and I can tell you that when the spirit is extinguished, when that last breath is exhaled, nothing of the person remains alive anywhere.

Can you scripturally prove otherwise?

 

[Cooper]

Is that a Bible teaching, or is that an assumption? How and why are we made in God’s image?

Spirit means “breath”....man is a “soul” that is animated by “spirit”, (breath) when breathing ceases, the soul dies. Our “breath” does not go anywhere but out of our lungs. We have no thought processes after that. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The dead are actually dead.....as God said.

Have you ever sat with a person who took their last breath? I have and I can tell you that when the spirit is extinguished, when that last breath is exhaled, nothing of the person remains alive anywhere.

Can you scripturally prove otherwise?

So no resurrection then? Atheists say the same. What about the 144,000?
.

 

[post]

I think we should be less critical of doctrine and be more focused on fulfilling Jesus’ commands. We need to love each other. The world hates its fellow man now.

Christ's primary command is "believe"
that is how we are saved - not by what we do, but by what we believe.

if we are believing false doctrines, but we do good works, then we are disobedient, and possibly not even saved, at all.
if we do not do the works we ought to do, but believe the Truth, then we are fools, and will eat the bread of fools, but we will have life.

 

[post]

Is that a Bible teaching, or is that an assumption

are you seriously asking whether it's Biblical to understand ourselves as being substance-dualistic?
that we in truth are spiritual beings who occupy a physical body?
wow.

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)

what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
(1 Cornthians 2:11)​

satisfied?
how many witnesses do you want?