New Covenant only for Jews?

[Ronald Nolette]

We would need to examine each passage individually. I was hoping you would grant me the space to make generalized statements, since we are trying to keep our posts short. The point is this. We are looking at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and therefore, we allow Jeremiah to make the points he wants to make with his language.

I don't know what you mean by "close enough is good enough."

Sorry I meant close enough is not good enough. We can make general statements, but if our generalized statements violate the spirit and language of Scripture, they violate the word of God itself.

Yes and Jeremiah was making a point about one covenant to Israel not one covenant and then some mysterious 2nd covenant.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am uncertain what I said that might lead you to say this. I certainly must have miscommunicated and for that I am very sorry. I don't maintain that Israel is transformed into the church.

Well it is you who say Jeremiah was prophesying about two separate covenants.

 

[amigo de christo]

Well fresh eyes are not always right eyes. The verse says what it does. Reading it in a normal ususal way does not give anyone the idea that there are two covenants.

Only what Jesus said or what the Apostles taught is important.

 

[amigo de christo]

Well it is you who say Jeremiah was prophesying about two separate covenants.

But what paul said , Was ONE COVENANT and that IT IS JESUS CHRIST and its available to both beleiving jews and gentiles .
YES INDEED . ONE COVENANT . ONLY PLAN of salvation . For either jew or gentile . BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST .
NEVER let them convince you otherwise . YOU GO down fighting to the last breath , saying THERE IS ONLY ONE COVENANT
and tis GIVEN IN JESUS CHRIST , SO BELEIVE and RECIEVE .

 

[Davy]

Only what Jesus said or what the Apostles taught is important.

Really?

All of God's Holy Writ is important and to be studied and understood...

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

 

[amigo de christo]

Really?

All of God's Holy Writ is important and to be studied and understood...

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

As i said What JESUS taught and said . WHO do you think inspired the prophets and torah . It wasnt MEN . IT WAS GOD .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It isn't that interesting to me that you have never heard what I am proposing because I have come to understand that ideas have inertia, especially ideas that have been around a long time. Certain concepts of the Christian faith were hashed out early in church history and once an "official" conclusion is reached, the concept gains a certain amount of weight. And unless someone brings that concept back under examination, it remains unexamined and take as granted. Now, since the opening question seeks to understand the New Covenant, then we are obligated to temporarily put aside our preconceived religious concepts and examine the associated passages afresh.

Well I brought your concept under examination, and without using any church teaching, but just the passage and its construction, I showed why yuou are mistaken in your hypotrhesis that Jeremiah 31 speaks of 2 covenants. The 2 covenants can only be deduced by retranslating what is written.

For instance, Jeremiah, beginning in verse 27, speaks about the era after the exile, the era after the return. During that time the Lord will cause a population explosion so that Rachael's children will multiply greatly. Rachael mourned because she was convinced that her children were "no more." But God promises her that her children will be greatly multiplied.

Well not to get on your case again but verse 27 does not speak of a population explosion. It could possibly be implied, but directly from the language? No! And technically, it is not after teh return, but "in those days" is used in prophecy to refer to either the last days or the millenial kingdom, context determines which.

Paul described himself as the minister of the New Covenant, which indicates that the New Covenant was already in effect, a covenant God made during the days after the return from exile. Jesus says that his blood, i.e. his death, burial, resurrection and ascension inaugurated the New Covenant, which is not only made with the houses of Israel and Judah, but as God revealed later, is made with all those who have the faith of Abraham.

More later . . .

Once again if the new covenant is in effect then these things have happened and are happening:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do you really believe Israel is Gods people once again?
No one has to teach Israel for they all know the Lord?
God has forgiven every sin of the Jews and remembers none of their iniquity- even if they haven't received Messiah?

I know I don't and there is no other provisions found in the bible of the New Covenant. This is the whole covenant.

Whereas you include this announcement as part of the New Covenant, I note that Jeremiah speaks of a time "after those days." After what days? Isn't Jeremiah speaking about an era subsequent to the era specified in verse 31? When Jeremiah says, "Behold days are coming . . ." he speaks about the post-exilic era, during which time God made a new Covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel in the blood of Jesus. Then Jeremiah speaks of an era subsequent to that when he says, "after THOSE days" indicating the post-exilic period, after the post-exilic period God will make another covenant with Israel. This is where your summary fits in well, I think.

Well there has been no covenant announced to Israel by God since the Davidic Covenant. So there is no "Thje days are coming when I will make a new covenant:. Jesus blood is not the covenant- it is the price Jesus paid to insure the covenant. All covenants required the shedding of blood.

YOu simply assume the "days are coming" is the period of return or post exilic time. but we see no covenants announced. As a matter of fact after the return, Israel went through a 400 year time when they had no prophet or prophecy.

YOu have god making 2 new covenants with Israel and no passage is found in Scripture shows 2 new covenants.

also if we simply let the Jeremiah passage speak for itself in the language of Jeremiah we realize that the days coming are the days when the New Covenant is "agreed to" by Israel. "After those days, shows what happens as a result of the covenant going into effect. It really is that simple.

 

[Davy]

As i said What JESUS taught and said . WHO do you think inspired the prophets and torah . It wasnt MEN . IT WAS GOD .

Well, in case you are not aware, some of men's doctrines say that only Paul's Epistles are relevant to Christ's Church. So they say all other Scripture is for the Jews only, which of course is not true.

 

[amigo de christo]

Well, in case you are not aware, some of men's doctrines say that only Paul's Epistles are relevant to Christ's Church. So they say all other Scripture is for the Jews only, which of course is not true.

ALL SCRIPTURAL REMINDERS , ALL are for the true church of both believing jews and gentiles to feast upon daily .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul taught in Rom. 2:29 that all true Christians are Jews. Christ basically repeats this same doctrine in Rev. 2:9 and Rev. 3:9 where He speaks of the synagogue of Satan claiming they are Jews.

No he didn't. that is a rewriting of teh Scripture by allegorizing what Paul said. In romans Paul is talking about the full Jew and not just one who is a physical descendant

You are absolutely wrong. Jeremiah is primarily an end-time book. Jer. 23:20, 30:24, 1-9 makes this crystal clear. Jer. 30:1-9 undeniably makes it obvious that it is an end-time book that was only fulfilled in type because in verse 4, God says this prophecy concerning Jacob's trouble(the Tribulation) is addressed to both Israel and Judah. Israel was already enslaved by Assyria long before this prophecy was recorded, so the idea that it was only a prophecy concerning a past event is preposterous. It is clearly describing an event that hasn't happened yet. Verse 24 even wraps the chapter up with God repeating the phrase "in the latter days, you will consider it".

Wrong. Part of Jeremiah is the coming Babylonian Captivity, and part is end times, context determines which. I know that Israel was enslaved by Assyria before Jeremiah prophecied, so you misunderstood me somehow.

Furthermore, verses 8-9 clearly mentions Israel and Judah experiencing national slavery in the time just before David is resurrected to rule over both groups. Again, this is describing a future event. Paul was inspired to quote Jer. 31 because it is primarily describing a future event. If it were only describing history, all of the national descendants of the northern 10 tribes(the house of Israel) and Jews would be practicing biblical Christianity right now. Anyone with 2 working eyes and some common sense can see that this is clearly not the case. Atheism is huge in these countries, and even the "Christianity" that is largely practiced in these countries consists of people rejecting God's laws.

And? I agree! I think you are totally misreading my words.


.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But what paul said , Was ONE COVENANT and that IT IS JESUS CHRIST and its available to both beleiving jews and gentiles .
YES INDEED . ONE COVENANT . ONLY PLAN of salvation . For either jew or gentile . BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST .
NEVER let them convince you otherwise . YOU GO down fighting to the last breath , saying THERE IS ONLY ONE COVENANT
and tis GIVEN IN JESUS CHRIST , SO BELEIVE and RECIEVE .

My brother, the benefits of the new covenant are available to Jew and Gentile but the New Covenant is for Israel alone:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

This is the New Covenant in its entirety. Not one hint of gentiles anywhere.

 

[Davy]

Paul taught in Rom. 2:29 that all true Christians are Jews. Christ basically repeats this same doctrine in Rev. 2:9 and Rev. 3:9 where He speaks of the synagogue of Satan claiming they are Jews.

Just a side note, the "synagogue of Satan" Lord Jesus pointed to is Not about true bloodline Judah, even though many of true bloodline Judah are still blinded and deceived away from The Gospel.

Jesus was pointing to those who only 'say'... they are Jews, but lie and are not. That has nothing to do with Paul's preaching of a spiritual Jew like in Romans 2. Jesus was pointing to His enemies that serve the devil knowingly that crept in among Israel, and took the name Jew. Like the left overs of the nations of Canaan, the Canaanites, also the Nethinim foreigners that crept into the Levitical priesthood, and the Kenites of the land of Canaan that became the scribes of Israel (which tempted Lord Jesus along with the Pharisee crept in unawares).

The crept in unawares idea is shown in many Scriptures in God's Word, so I'm surprised that so few know about it (see Jude 1 for starters).

 

[Stumpmaster]

the benefits of the new covenant are available to Jew and Gentile but the New Covenant is for Israel alone:

Sermon Topic: The Inclusive Blood of Christ makes the New Covenant Inclusive.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[marks]

But what paul said , Was ONE COVENANT and that IT IS JESUS CHRIST and its available to both beleiving jews and gentiles .
YES INDEED . ONE COVENANT . ONLY PLAN of salvation .

To say "another covenant", that does not mean another way of salvation.

God can both save the Jews according to the New Covenant in Christ's blood, and can also give them a kingdom and a glory according to another covenent, that does not extend to Gentiles.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

To say "another covenant", that does not mean another way of salvation.

God can both save the Jews according to the New Covenant in Christ's blood, and can also give them a kingdom and a glory according to another covenent, that does not extend to Gentiles.

Much love!

The new covenant in the BLOOD OF CHRIST , IS THE ONLY CONVENANT that saves . WHEN abraham
was shown the true covenant , What do YOU THINK GOD showed HIM .
There is no salvation , no hope , no eternal life , BUT IN , FAITH IN JESUS .
No jew is gonna end up saved that rejected JESUS , Nor will any gentile . LET US NEVER FORGET THAT .
And lest we do , LET ME GIVE US A REMINDER that GOD HIMSELF said . CAUSE IT JESUS SAID IT , WELL
WHO DO YOU THINK SAID IT .
THIS HE SAID TO THE JEWS WHO BELIEVED NOT ON HIM . YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL .
May that sink in real deep , lest any of us ever thinks GOD has another plan of salvation for the jews .
IF JESUS who according to the flesh came of the jews , SAID YE WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS if you BELIEVE NOT that I AM HE
why would we ever believe any mere man who comes in HIS OWN NAME and says GOD HAS another plan of salvation for the jews
or any man . I PROMISE , I GAURANTEE , YET NOT I , BUT JESUS HIMSELF , THAT if they or us dont BELEIVE IN JESUS
THEY DAMNED . PEROID and END OF DISCUSSION . I told us all , I AM A STICKLER to the original gospel .
AND MAYBE YOU ALREADY DO KNOW THIS . GOOD IF YOU DO . IF SO , JUST PRAISE GOD that men like me dont back down .
HOWEVER if you dont believe this , THEN I DO AND SHALL CONTINUE TO PRAY FOR YOU , TILL YOU DO .
JESUS ONLY FOLKS . JESUS ONLY . That is the hill i choose to die on .

 

[amigo de christo]

To say "another covenant", that does not mean another way of salvation.

God can both save the Jews according to the New Covenant in Christ's blood, and can also give them a kingdom and a glory according to another covenent, that does not extend to Gentiles.

Much love!

There is ONLY ONE TRUE KINGDOM . ITS OF JESUS CHRIST . Where both believing jews and gentiles shall truly be .
There is NOT two kingdoms . ONLY ONE TRUE KINGDOM . the other kingdom and kingdoms belong to satan .
NEVER FORGET that EITHER .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sermon Topic: The Inclusive Blood of Christ makes the New Covenant Inclusive.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You do not understand that teh blood is the price that sealed the covenant, it is not the covenant.

And yes Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the Word but that is not part of teh New Covenant as written in Gods Word:

Jeremiah 31:31-36
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


Jesus did not say His blood is an addendum to the New Covenant. The Bible clearly shows what the church is:

Acts 15:14
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

For lack of a better way of saying it, what we are living in is a time in between God dealing with the only people He made everlasting covenants with (Israel). It is the time when God is taking out of us gentiles a people for His name. One purpose for this calling of Gentiles is as Paul said in Romans, to make Israel jealous! It really is that simple. I knwoall of us have been taught we are New Testament believers, but that in biblical reality is incorrect.

The church receives blessings by being grafted onto the vine (Jesus), but the New cnant still does not pertain to us. It is for Israel alone!

 

[Keraz]

the New cnant still does not pertain to us. It is for Israel alone!

You are in error;
2 Corinthians 3:6 God has empowered us as the ministers of a a new Covenant, nor physical, but Spiritual.....

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well fresh eyes are not always right eyes. The verse says what it does. Reading it in a normal ususal way does not give anyone the idea that there are two covenants.

What do you mean "usual" way? What if the "usual" way is wrong?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sorry I meant close enough is not good enough. We can make general statements, but if our generalized statements violate the spirit and language of Scripture, they violate the word of God itself.

Yes and Jeremiah was making a point about one covenant to Israel not one covenant and then some mysterious 2nd covenant.

You aren't responding to my interpretation with specific objections. You haven't actually dealt with the objections I raised to the "usual" interpretation.

Objection 1.
Neither Jesus nor Paul associate the concepts found in Jeremiah 31:33-34 with the New Covenant.

Objection 2.
Jeremiah speaks about two different time periods: a) Behold days are coming . . . and b) after those days.