HERESY?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,566
8,256
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you have the 1909 original Scofield bible? I doubt it.
My friend.

I have heard the accusations against mr scofield. And as every good christian child should do I have researched it. You can go and find the original scofield notes. And even look up his writings

He does not say what you are accusing him of.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,566
8,256
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You wrote what you wrote and I read what you wrote so please do not make me responsible for your "mistake."
If I saw you say that after you said the opposite, I at lease would have asked you if that was what you meant since you seemed to contradict yourself.

But thats me
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I'll first just answer this section, which is all I've read so far.

There are two types of sin. 1 John 5:16-17. Sins unto death 1 John 3:4, and sins not unto death, those who Jesus is our Advocate and keeps cleansing as long as we keep fellowship and forgive those who trespass (sins not unto death) against us. Matthew 6:14-15. That is why in 1 John 1:7 even though the person is walking in the Spirit and cannot commit willful sins of lawlessness, he can still be immature in some of the fruit of the Spirit. It is the actions taken of immaturity - venial sins (not lawlessness sins - mortal sins) that the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse.

But to become a Christian we must repent, Acts 2:38, and that is the major event of 1 John 1:9. There is no mortal sin or venial sin that Jesus blood fails to cleanse at justification. They are our past sins (before Christ). 2 Peter 1:9. But then Jesus gives us His own Spirit Romans 8:9 to prevent us from willfully sinning lawlessly ever again - those sins that lead to death. And our venial sins of immaturity in the Spirit are cleansed by our Advocate - 1 John 2:1. Just remember that sins unto death were only covered by the blood of Jesus at our confession from BEFORE we repented unto Jesus and became His follower. Now He wants us to remain not only sinless, but to become perfect in maturity. Those steps are found in 2 Peter 1:5-7. Now read to verse 11! If you do those steps you will NEVER STUMBLE.
I find this problem in conversing on these forums....
I made specific statement to you in my previous post...
but you do not explain my verse.
You just write back with your own.
That's verse chess....

The above is true. 1 John 1-9 is regarding when we come to believe in God and His commandments.
But we agree on that.

I asked you to please explain
1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;


It clearly states that we should not sin
BUT IF WE DO SIN...

You remove the problem by stating that there are veniel and mortal sins.
Are you Catholic?
In the very next breath you say we are to be perfect when we become mature.
When does this maturity begin?
Paul says he has to give us milk...maybe we're never really mature?
Maybe the person that sins every now and then is not mature and so is not required to be perfect.

BUT IF WE DO SIN...
means that we WILL sin and when we do sin we have an advocate with the Father.

If you can not sin and never do sin, I believe you are blessed by God.
I know monks that are not even involved in worldly affairs and yet they know they sin.
The POPE goes to confession and knows he is in sin at times.

Romans 8:34
34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Jesus intercedes for us...He pleads for us.
What exactly is He pleading about? (if not for our sins after salvation since we were washed clean at justification).

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is son....

How could you NOT know when you are doing wrong?
I had asked you for some examples of sins that you are not aware of....

James also said that if you KNOW the right thing to do and do NOT do it...it is sin. James 4:17
John and James agree that we know when we're sinning.
 

Moriah's Song

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2021
824
326
63
Murphy
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And as every good christian child should do I have researched it. You can go and find the original scofield notes.
I have also done extensive research and these are the men who are responsible for the heresy that exist today in so many churches. Just take a look a the first one. Doesn't his eyes say something to you? Second is Scofield. Third and fourth are Walvrood and Chafter of Dallas Theological seminary. The last two are Hal Lindsay of the "Left Behind" Series and Tim LaHaye the TV preacher that promoted it further.

Darby never had any theological training nor did Scofield.
C.I. Scofield was born in Michigan in 1843, but fought for the Confederacy during the Civil War. Afterwards, he had a career in law but began to drink heavily. By 1879 Scofield had converted to Christianity and began working with evangelist Dwight L. Moody. Scofield pastored Congregationalist churches in Massachusetts and Texas. In 1909 he published the eponymous Scofield Reference Bible, which had extensive footnotes for personal bible study. It sold more than two million copies by the end of World War II and is responsible for the popularization of dispensational premillenialism in America. Scofield used his proceeds from the Bible to found Philadelphia School of the Bible in 1914.
chart-of-j-n-darby-to-lahaye1.jpg
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
ECF? Is that Episcopals? Well not being Catholic, Orthodox or Episcopal, then no I don't know what they believe. But I am not thinking of "purgatory" when interpreting 1 Cor. 3.

Just so you know. Being in a denomination, or going to church, or even believing in Jesus will not save you if you do not have the Holy Spirit inside you super-sensitizing your conscience making it almost impossible to go against it. If you do, it would be very uncomfortable and God's chastisement. IOW, there are many calling Jesus, Lord, but who do not belong to Him. Romans 8:9. And that is why it only seems that Christians are able to sin by those church fathers. True Christians always live up to the light they have. And more light is given as they grow towards perfection. Philippians 3:16.
Christians do not have total light. We are constantly growing.
1 Corinthians 13:9-12
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part,
10but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside.
11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways.
12For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.


Now we know in part...
When Jesus comes the partial will be set aside...
Now we know in part,,,but then we will know fully.

Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian had a lot to say about men sinning:

Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
...For to sin is natural and common to all...but to return to (God) after sinning is characteristic not of any man,
but only of a man of worth.




Tertullian (197AD)

To the Son of God alone was it reserved to persevere to the end without sin.

I know of no one among men who is perfect in all things at once, as long as he is still human.

God alone is without sin. And the only human without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.
 

Moriah's Song

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2021
824
326
63
Murphy
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have not proved any heresy, only accuse.
Quote: "Dispensationalism believes that the purpose of the first advent of Jesus Christ was to offer an earthly Kingdom to the Jews. This Kingdom would reinstate the Old Testament legal system and it's expansion to the entire world under the Messiah. When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ and His Kingdom offer, plan B went into effect and Christ went to the cross to initiate the dispensation of Grace and the "mystery church". Had Israel received her King there would have been no cross - and no Gospel!

  • When Jesus came, He made a bona fide offer of the Kingdom and power to the people of Israel. (Quoted from: D.G. Barnhouse, He Came Unto His Own (New York: Revell, 1933), p.17)

    What then, if the Jews had done their duty and accepted this offer, of the salvation of mankind? What of the cross - 'without shedding of blood there is no remission'? What of the prophecies pointing to the cross? How could Christ offer a Kingdom that He could not permit to be established lest there be no salvation of man by His shed Blood? Dispensationalists attempt to absolve themselves from the concept of making God a liar by claiming He knew no one would call His bluff.

    He knew before He came that they would refuse it - knew from all eternity; hence, there are prophets which speak of His coming to die for us. ( Ibid.)
Another author: Even though God knew that Israel would reject the Messiah, He had to make them a bona fide offer of the Kingdom before turning to the Gentiles. This is why Jesus sent the first group of disciples only among the Jews, and why He said He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matt. 15:24)
 
Last edited:

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
You made that up! Those that are Christ's have ALREADY crucified their flesh. It is dead. We now live in Christ.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

1 Corinthians 15:
30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

"I die daily," doesn't mean to his sin nature as if it was still alive. It means he faces physical death daily or prison to spread the gospel to the Galatians and others for Christ. He faces jeopardy daily.

So is your old nature dead or not?

cc: @GodsGrace Thought you might like to read this. It covers other heresies being taught on the forums and explains what the truth is.
You believe we no longer have the sin nature?
We still have it but it's kept in suppression by the Holy Spirit.
But you don't believe we sin, and so you can also believe we no longer have the sin nature.
Paul speaks of the flesh....
He says not to WALK in the flesh...
We still have it but we are not to walk in it.
I think Romans 8:5 explains this well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BloodBought 1953

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,566
8,256
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have also done extensive research and these are the men who are responsible for the heresy that exist today in so many churches. Just take a look a the first one. Doesn't his eyes say something to you? Second is Scofield. Third and fourth are Walvrood and Chafter of Dallas Theological seminary. The last two are Hal Lindsay of the "Left Behind" Series and Tim LaHaye the TV preacher that promoted it further.

Darby never had any theological training nor did Scofield.
C.I. Scofield was born in Michigan in 1843, but fought for the Confederacy during the Civil War. Afterwards, he had a career in law but began to drink heavily. By 1879 Scofield had converted to Christianity and began working with evangelist Dwight L. Moody. Scofield pastored Congregationalist churches in Massachusetts and Texas. In 1909 he published the eponymous Scofield Reference Bible, which had extensive footnotes for personal bible study. It sold more than two million copies by the end of World War II and is responsible for the popularization of dispensational premillenialism in America. Scofield used his proceeds from the Bible to found Philadelphia School of the Bible in 1914.
View attachment 19252
I see no false doctrine in anything you posted here. Where is it?

Just because you know his history does nt mean you know what he teaches
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
"Dispensationalism believes that the purpose of the first advent of Jesus Christ was to offer an earthly Kingdom to the Jews. This Kingdom would reinstate the Old Testament legal system and it's expansion to the entire world under the Messiah. When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ and His Kingdom offer, plan B went into effect and Christ went to the cross to initiate the dispensation of Grace and the "mystery church". Had Israel received her King there would have been no cross - and no Gospel!
This is pure baloney. No Dispensationalist believes such nonsense. And calling Dispensationalism "heresy" simply reveals your ignorance.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I don't know if I have contributed to this subject as I have been out of action for a while as I had to have a heart operation to prevent me from dying. But for what it is worth as the church is a specialist subject of mine I would like to say that most churches today ignore scripture, preferring their own denominational doctrine and ideas.

I have been checking out job vacancies these last few months and many of them are totally laughable. I read one a few days ago which was for a part-time pastor working two days and he was to be responsible for about 50 different things in the church. Definitely a guarantee of burnout.

First thing is nowhere in scripture are pastors hired from outside of the church to take charge. As clear as day the leadership of the church in the New Testament was assigned to Elders (plural) who grew up in the church and had proved themselves (see Timothy and Titus) First they were leaders of their families before they could become leaders of the church.

The church I was part of in the UK before I moved to Australia was governed by seven Elders, none of whom were paid. During the ten years I was there we experienced revival. Much later on they decided to employ a pastor from outside and it all fell apart as he was caught doing what he shouldn't do with his secretary. God knew what he was doing when he chose a plurality of Elders to take care of the church.

Another thing is the NTC did not meet Sunday morning in a building. They met daily from house to house around a meal where fellowship, prayer, and teaching took place. No so-called Holy Communion.

Jesus told the church to go into all the world and make disciples. He did not tell them to make Christians. There is a difference.

The five ascension gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher and shepherd were given to build up the body of Christ and equip them for service. They were not given to make someone look good. They were servants to the body of Christ not the body of Christ servants to them.

I could add a dozen more to the list but that will do for now. If you ignore the basics you will go astray on most things as you tend to make things up to suit yourself. Whole denominations have come about because one person could not get his pet project accepted by the church they were attending so they struck out and formed another denomination that encompassed their pet project.

In the end they are not much different from the church they left.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,252
2,342
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
There is no historical information to suggest the first Christians dressed like that. The liturgical vestments worn at Mass have evolved over time.
Please show me where "Mass" was celebrated ever in the first century....? Its evolution is of no consequence if it was never part of original Christianity.

Christ instituted the new covenant on the night of his last Passover. The Lord's Supper replaced the Passover for Christians and was therefor a yearly observance, celebrated on the correct date each year as Passover was, and still is by devout Jews.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits that “the Mass of today differs greatly from the very simple ceremony followed by Christ and His Apostles.” And by observing the Mass frequently, even daily, Christendom has veered from what Jesus intended and has made it a common event.....and don't get me started on transubstantiation.....


The things that disturb me most are the mindless repetitions of what are apparently called prayers. I had a Catholic neighbor who played a recording of the Rosary in the car wherever she went.

When Jesus said the "Our Father" prayer, what did he say just before he gave it?
Matthew 6:6-10...
"6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees everything that is done in secret will reward you."

Does this sound like the kind of prayer heard in Catholic households?

7 “When you pray do not go on babbling endlessly as the pagans do, for they believe that they are more likely to be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not imitate them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him."


So no repetitious prayers, babbling endlessly as if the number of times you say a phrase or the Lord's prayer is somehow acceptable to God.....?
If your own children approached you and said the same things over and over again, day in day out.....wouldn't you just want to slap them up the side of the head and tell them to just talk to you? Tell me who said that is was OK to endlessly repeat words? Where did God ever tell his worshippers to do that?

Notice the sentence before the Lord's Prayer....
9 “This is how you should pray:


Jesus did not say "pray this prayer" he said that this was "how you should pray"....then he stated the order of importance in what our prayers should include.....and the first thing mentioned, was the "hallowing" or sanctification of God's name......its hard to sanctify a name that is never used....

"‘Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven."


Its also hard to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" when you don't know exactly what it is......but when it does "come" (and the Bible tells us what that means)....God's will can then "be done on earth as it is in heaven". God's will has not being done "on earth" since Adam's sin...so this is something yet future......but what? No Catholic person that I have ever studied the Bible with had a clue about any of it.


Like I said before. I would prefer the money be spent on the poor but their is nothing in Scripture against it. I defend Church doctrine/dogma which is based on Scripture. I think the most important part of Matthew 23 is this: The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it. Jesus is telling his listeners to obey their Church elders/leaders. This is followed up later in Hebrews 13:7; 13:17 and 1 Peter 5:3-5. Do you obey your Church leaders Jane? I follow Scripture so I do.
Leaders first have to prove that what they teach is from the word of God. If they failed to do that, I would not follow their leadership. God would not expect me to follow their leadership.

Actually if you read the whole of Matthew 23 you will get a good idea about just what he said about the Pharisees and their leadership.....by saying that “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. Therefore, be careful to do whatever they tell you, but do not follow their example, for they do not practice what they preach." (NCB)...Jesus is certainly highlighting that what they read from the scriptures was accurate, but in their own application of God's word, they failed to apply it to themselves.

Again, I see a strong prophetic pattern in the situation in Judaism and the situation in Christendom, (which I can never call "Christianity" for obvious reasons.) When Jesus gave commands, these were from his God and Father and there was no clause that said any of those commands were merely recommendations that only applied if you wanted them to....IOW, they were not optional.
It seems to me that everything Jesus said NOT to do, the Catholic church did it...and the things that they were commanded to do, they made excuses for NOT doing them.

The Jews site Exodus 28 when considering what God thinks of vestments. The best I can tell is that historically Christians continued this practice. Wearing of the vestments visually separates the Church elders from the flock. What do you think about the Protestant preachers that wear a $1,000.00 suit and tie while on stage preaching to others about helping the poor? Do you dislike that also? If so, why haven't you said anything about it? Why are you only pointing out how Catholic church leaders dress?
When I speak of Christendom, I am including all who come under that description.
Unlike Judaism, Christianity had no earthly priesthood. They had no temple, no distinctive clothing (or else Judas would have been able to point Jesus out as the one with the distinctive robes.....)
The Christian priesthood was always spoken of as future, not present....and in heaven not on earth. (Revelation 20:6)
Paul said that the earthly things were shadows of heavenly things.....so as Paul says of his fellow "saints" (holy ones)...
Hebrews 3:1-2....
"1 Therefore, holy brethren, who share in a heavenly calling, concentrate your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and the high priest of our profession of faith. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in God’s household."
Did you ever hear of Jesus being called an "apostle"? And he is also a "High Priest", but not in any earthly Temple. If Jesus was God then he serves as his own High Priest.

Therefore there is no reason to emulate the Jewish system with its Temple and priesthood and distinctive clothing, liturgy and incense, which was abolished when Christ returned to heaven. At the end of Matthew 23 Jesus said....
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you murder the Prophets and stone the messengers sent to you! How often have I longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not allow it! 38 Behold, your house has been abandoned and left desolate. 39 I tell you, you will not see me again until you say: ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ”

Only a remnant of natural Israel were going to be saved as it was prophesied.
Romans 9:27-28...
"And Isaiah cries out in regard to Israel:

Though the number of the Israelites
will be like the sand of the sea,
only a remnant of them will be saved.
28 For the sentence of the Lord on the earth
will be executed quickly and with finality.”


And no wonder only a remnant of natural Israel would be saved.....with a history like theirs, how could God excuse them?
I see a judgment for Christendom for all the same reasons....Protestantism is just the offspring of the 'mother church'. Her core doctrines are exactly the same.