Perpetual virginity of Mary mother of God!

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Ronald Nolette

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No it isn't; the linguisitic principle is the same.


Well in teh sense that "will keep when presented in PAI is an action to immediately occur and not in some undefined time, I agree, but other there are differences.

So you admit that what you said "to not have sex with a husband is a violation of the Mosaic Law!" was false.

Moreover the site you quote does not say that sex is compulsory after the second stage.

What it does say is that to not engage in sex is to not be officially married.

Let me make this simple.

In Luke Mary said How can this be, I have nod hat sex with a man.

Then in Matt. It says and Joseph did not have sex with her until their first born was born. UNtil is not a conditional but a statement of fact.

And I did some double checking- there is noi allowance for an historic future in the PAI, in the present there is what is known as an historic present but that is not PAI.

If Mary meant to say she will not have sex ever she would have used the FAI, or FAImp. or the PAI or PAImp.

They were legally married. That is why Joseph is described as her husband and thought to divorce her. (Mt 1:19)

And Mary is not refusing sex. Joseph is accepting her vow of virginity.

They were considered married but the marriage did not take place until intercourse. That is why the bridegrooms stood outside the "honeymoon suite" the first night to through hearing, witness the consummation of the marriage. In Jewish culture there is a difference. YOu are bringing your 21st century gentile mindset to the 1st century Jewish culture.


As I said that would normally be the case.

And the bible clearly shows they did!

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Sorry Mungo but you can't get around it . The know here is hte same as in the Luke passage- SEX! Until is not a conditional or a possible, but a simple conjunction defining a time.

IOW We could say "And Joseph continued to refrain from having sex with Mary only until Jesus was born".

It is just like it reads.
 

Mungo

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Well in teh sense that "will keep when presented in PAI is an action to immediately occur and not in some undefined time, I agree, but other there are differences.



What it does say is that to not engage in sex is to not be officially married.

Let me make this simple.

In Luke Mary said How can this be, I have nod hat sex with a man.

Then in Matt. It says and Joseph did not have sex with her until their first born was born. UNtil is not a conditional but a statement of fact.

And I did some double checking- there is noi allowance for an historic future in the PAI, in the present there is what is known as an historic present but that is not PAI.

If Mary meant to say she will not have sex ever she would have used the FAI, or FAImp. or the PAI or PAImp.



They were considered married but the marriage did not take place until intercourse. That is why the bridegrooms stood outside the "honeymoon suite" the first night to through hearing, witness the consummation of the marriage. In Jewish culture there is a difference. YOu are bringing your 21st century gentile mindset to the 1st century Jewish culture.




And the bible clearly shows they did!

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Sorry Mungo but you can't get around it . The know here is hte same as in the Luke passage- SEX! Until is not a conditional or a possible, but a simple conjunction defining a time.

IOW We could say "And Joseph continued to refrain from having sex with Mary only until Jesus was born".

It is just like it reads.

You are floundering around like a fish out of water with lots of claims but no evidence.

Here is a revue (with evidence) of the points I made, and which you have failed to refute.

1. Mary is in the first stage of marriage - we agree on that.
At this stage she is legally married to Joseph.
"Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce." (Judaism 101)
Hence Mt 1:19 "and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly."

2. A sexual relationship only started when the husband took her into his home (nisuin). Therefore a child would not be expected before nisuin too place. A wife would be hoping for a child after nisuin was completed.

3. The angel Gabriel comes to Mary and tells her that, at some unspecified time in the future, she will conceive and bear a son (Lk 1:31). The normal presumption is that would happen after nisuin is complete.

4. But Mary asks a surprising question How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? (Lk 1:34). That question makes no sense if Mary is referring to now. It does make sense if she is referring to the future (after nisuin) - if she had no intention of consummating the marriage- i.e. made a vow of perpetual virginity because she is not expecting to have a sexual relation with Joseph.

Although the words are in the present tense in the Greek I gave three quotes from experts that say that the Greek tense used can refer to the future.

Blass and Debrunner in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature say 'in confident assertions regarding the future a vivid realistic present may be used for the future’ (Blass & A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, translated and revised by R. W. Funk, Chicago and Longon, 1961, p. 168, & 323)

John McHugh in 'The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament' says I would suggest that in Lk 1:34 the present tense is employed with the force of a future……. Thus the most accurate translation of Lk 1:34 would be 'How shall this be since I am not to know a man?'

Greek expert J.Gresham Machen (Protestant) wrote "This solution [of a vow of virginity] certainly removes in the fullest possible way the difficulty…. No objection to it can be raised from a linguistic point of view; there seems to be no reason why the present indicative, "I know" , could not be taken as designating a fixed principle of Mary's life that would apply to the future as well as the present.(my emphasis)

I also gave an example of the same Greek tense where it clearly does refer to the future (Mt 26:18) I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples. The verb is actually in the present tense, literally “I am holding the Passover with the disciples of me.” but clearly refers to the future.

I also gave an analogy (not smoking) where the use of the present tense only makes sense if it also applies to the future..

Also, the Protoevangelium of James tells how Mary was dedicated to God at an early age. This fits with Mary’s intention to remain a virgin. Yes, it's not scriptural but it is evidence.

Regarding the "until "clause.
1. It actually supports my claim that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity. In ancient Judaism a couple would consummate the marriage on their wedding night (nisuin). It was the climax of the wedding celebration taking place in the "bridal chamber" (see MT 25:1-13). So Matthew is making the point that they did not consummate the marriage. This supports the idea that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity.

2. Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.
The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death? NO

There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84? NO

Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age? NO

but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial
(Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO

except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come.
(Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.
(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO
 

theefaith

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It would seem that several respondents somehow construe the quoted verse to magically switch from 'present tense' to 'forever future tense'. I am aware that it is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church in their Catechism that proclaims Mary's perpetual virginity that was somehow 'magically derived' for all I know by someone who may have been imbibing, perhaps.

Look at the whole conversation - present tense as the angel and Mary are clearly carrying on a conversation:

Luke 1:30-35 (KJV)
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Verse 34 is the PRESENT tense. NOWHERE in the conversation does Mary state directly or indirectly, or even hint that she intends to never have intercourse with Joseph. It merely indicates that from her birth to that point in time, Mary has never had sex. Period. How anyone can possibly claim to conclusively know or believe that she intended to remain a virgin is adding to scripture, twisting it, if you will. Nowhere in Gods' Word does Mary ever make a vow like Catholic nuns do of 100% abstention from sex. Also, nowhere in God's Word does it claim priests must also remain celibate. Both are inventions of the Catholic Church.



Say what? How can anyone possibly think that verse 2 relates in any way to Mary, or, as prophesied in the Old Testament, a virgin? Look at verse 1! It speaks of the Temple, not any person! Look at verse 3. If verse 2 in any way refers to Mary's womb, then how can Christ 'eat bread' in it and enter in and go out as well? The whole set of verses is talking about the house of the Lord (v5) as a sanctuary, etc. Oh! One would think the Gospels would mention that Mary was facing east when talking to the angel in Luke 1, huh? Shame on you for trying to wildly twist scripture and foolishly apply it to Mary.

Ezekel 44:1-5 (KJV)
1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.
5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.



Again....taking one verse out of context and somehow imagining on your head that it applies to Mary in any size shape or form. I am amazed that anyone could possibly misconstrue scripture to the extent you seem to be doing so unfailingly.

Song of Solomon 4 speaks solely of Solomon admiring his bride. Of course, it is a 'picture' of Christ admiring HIS bride, ie, the church.

Song of Solomon 4:1-16 (KJV)
1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.
3 Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.
4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.
5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.
6 Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.
7 Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.
8 Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards.
9 Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!
11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of
12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.



Mary is the temple of God, God consecrated and dwelt in this temple for 9 months and it cannot be used for a ordinary purpose, anymore than you could hold a teen rock & roll dance in the holy of Holies in the temple of God?

King david has love of Mary!

Psalm 26:8
Lord, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the place where thine honour dwelleth.
 

theefaith

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Sorry but my response is you are up a creek without a paddle but I guess talking to yourself is a good way to reinforce what you believe.


The church has always taught the perpetual virginity of Mary,.......

Correction. The catholic church has always taught the virginity of mary. No other church has.

there is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 Jn 10:16
 

theefaith

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All others are tradition of men sects teaching errors of all kinds

the true church cannot teach error Jn 16:13
 

theefaith

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I hate to talk about things of sexual nature especially when referring to the Blessed Mother, but I don't think it would have been a sin for Mary and Joseph to have normal husband and wife relations after our Savior's birth.

It's not like God sent down an Angel and told both of them to never have normal husband and wife relations after the birth of Jesus.

I never said it would be a sin

mary long before even knowing Joseph made a vow of her virginity to God as a sacrifice of herself
For humility: she did not think herself worthy to be the mother of God!
And because she was conceived immaculate, her immaculate purity allowed her to see God even from her mothers womb, and she loved him completely and offered herself completely to God forever!

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
 

JohnPaul

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I never said it would be a sin

mary long before even knowing Joseph made a vow of her virginity to God as a sacrifice of herself
For humility: she did not think herself worthy to be the mother of God!
And because she was conceived immaculate, her immaculate purity allowed her to see God even from her mothers womb, and she loved him completely and offered herself completely to God forever!

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
I never said it would be a sin

mary long before even knowing Joseph made a vow of her virginity to God as a sacrifice of herself
For humility: she did not think herself worthy to be the mother of God!
And because she was conceived immaculate, her immaculate purity allowed her to see God even from her mothers womb, and she loved him completely and offered herself completely to God forever!

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
So you are saying after Christ’s birth Mary never had normal relations with her husband, never had any other children after Jesus was born, she remained a Virgin till her death?
 

Ronald Nolette

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4. But Mary asks a surprising question How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? (Lk 1:34). That question makes no sense if Mary is referring to now. It does make sense if she is referring to the future (after nisuin) - if she had no intention of consummating the marriage- i.e. made a vow of perpetual virginity because she is not expecting to have a sexual relation with Joseph.


Well it makes ssense to those who accept Mary's perpetual virginity.

Mary is in the betrothal stage of her marriage. she is not allowed to have sex with Joseph according to Jewish law. she has not had sex with any man, and she doesn't expect to have sex until after the ceremony.

Like it says:

Matthew 1:25
King James Version

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Mary told Gabriel, " How can I get pregnant? I haven't had sex with a man" and as a good Jewish girl, she does not expect to have sex until nisuin.

Then God tells us that Jospeh refrained from sex only until Jesus was born (and then until teh days of purification were completed we assume).

It really is that simple.

If Mary had taken a vow of virginity she would have deceived Joseph . Marriage was for procreation and pleasure according to God.
The language of Mary does not allow a perpetual virginity. If shew was never God would have inspired the future indicative or the the future imperative Not the present active indicative. You argument about Passover doesn't stand for they were going to have Passove in the present, not some undefined future time. a few minutes not the future do not negate the fact it was occurring in the present. They had to secure the place, prepare the place and prepare the meal. Sorry but there is not a future reference in your example. It was the day of preparation for th epassover.

But all this aside The bible gives one phrase that shows Mary did not remain a virgin:

Matthew 1:25
King James Version

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

To put it into modern English- " Joseph did not have intercourse with his wife Mary, UNTIL she gave birth to her firstborn son, and Joseph called his name Jesus.

Show me one place where Gods Word is wrong here.
 

Ronald Nolette

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not rewriting but biblical principles

Well not God's Word . somebody else's sure, but definitely not God's biblical priniciples.

One passage shatters the myth you believe:

Matthew 1:25
King James Version

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

This biblical principle from this?

Joseph had intercourse with his wife after Jesus was born.
 

post

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what is wrong with these catholics and their false traditions?

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
(Mark 6:3)​

smh
 

Ronald Nolette

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what is wrong with these catholics and their false traditions?

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
(Mark 6:3)​

smh

They have been trained by the RCC to not accept words at their normal usual and common meaning.
 
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post

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i think it's pretty clear to the rest of us that many Gentiles being converted in ancient times were accustomed to pantheistic goddess worship, so the corrupt RCC accomodated that.

hence all this praying to Mary etc.


Baal & Ashereh
et al
 

Ronald Nolette

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i think it's pretty clear to the rest of us that many Gentiles being converted in ancient times were accustomed to goddess worship, so the corrupt RCC accomodated that.

hence all this praying to Mary etc.

Baal & Ashereh
et al

Here is the harsh problem. When they pray to saints and angels and Mary as queen of heaven, they do not call it praying like they do to God.

Though it involves all the same stuff, same positions, same respect similar words etc. They consider it just a step less than the worship they give God.

But Pres, Bush described this perfectly:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
 
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post

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Here is the harsh problem. When they pray to saints and angels and Mary as queen of heaven, they do not call it praying like they do to God.

Though it involves all the same stuff, same positions, same respect similar words etc. They consider it just a step less than the worship they give God.

But Pres, Bush described this perfectly:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.

5xpdh1.jpg
 

Mungo

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Well it makes ssense to those who accept Mary's perpetual virginity.

Mary is in the betrothal stage of her marriage. she is not allowed to have sex with Joseph according to Jewish law. she has not had sex with any man, and she doesn't expect to have sex until after the ceremony.

Like it says:

Matthew 1:25
King James Version

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Mary told Gabriel, " How can I get pregnant? I haven't had sex with a man" and as a good Jewish girl, she does not expect to have sex until nisuin.

Then God tells us that Jospeh refrained from sex only until Jesus was born (and then until teh days of purification were completed we assume).

It really is that simple.

If Mary had taken a vow of virginity she would have deceived Joseph . Marriage was for procreation and pleasure according to God.
The language of Mary does not allow a perpetual virginity. If shew was never God would have inspired the future indicative or the the future imperative Not the present active indicative. You argument about Passover doesn't stand for they were going to have Passove in the present, not some undefined future time. a few minutes not the future do not negate the fact it was occurring in the present. They had to secure the place, prepare the place and prepare the meal. Sorry but there is not a future reference in your example. It was the day of preparation for th epassover.

But all this aside The bible gives one phrase that shows Mary did not remain a virgin:

Matthew 1:25
King James Version

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

To put it into modern English- " Joseph did not have intercourse with his wife Mary, UNTIL she gave birth to her firstborn son, and Joseph called his name Jesus.

Show me one place where Gods Word is wrong here.

All your points are answered in my post.
You just don't want to answer them so you flop around regurgitating failed claims with no evidence.
 

Mungo

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what is wrong with these catholics and their false traditions?

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
(Mark 6:3)​

smh

Nowhere does scripture say they are Mary's children
 

Mungo

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Here is the harsh problem. When they pray to saints and angels and Mary as queen of heaven, they do not call it praying like they do to God.

Though it involves all the same stuff, same positions, same respect similar words etc. They consider it just a step less than the worship they give God.

But Pres, Bush described this perfectly:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.

Ah!
Can't answer my post about Mary being a perpetual Virgin so you try to divert on to another topic.
That's effectively admitting you failed.
 
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