Well in teh sense that "will keep when presented in PAI is an action to immediately occur and not in some undefined time, I agree, but other there are differences.
What it does say is that to not engage in sex is to not be officially married.
Let me make this simple.
In Luke Mary said How can this be, I have nod hat sex with a man.
Then in Matt. It says and Joseph did not have sex with her until their first born was born. UNtil is not a conditional but a statement of fact.
And I did some double checking- there is noi allowance for an historic future in the PAI, in the present there is what is known as an historic present but that is not PAI.
If Mary meant to say she will not have sex ever she would have used the FAI, or FAImp. or the PAI or PAImp.
They were considered married but the marriage did not take place until intercourse. That is why the bridegrooms stood outside the "honeymoon suite" the first night to through hearing, witness the consummation of the marriage. In Jewish culture there is a difference. YOu are bringing your 21st century gentile mindset to the 1st century Jewish culture.
And the bible clearly shows they did!
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
Sorry Mungo but you can't get around it . The know here is hte same as in the Luke passage- SEX! Until is not a conditional or a possible, but a simple conjunction defining a time.
IOW We could say "And Joseph continued to refrain from having sex with Mary only until Jesus was born".
It is just like it reads.
You are floundering around like a fish out of water with lots of claims but no evidence.
Here is a revue (with evidence) of the points I made, and which you have failed to refute.
1. Mary is in the first stage of marriage - we agree on that.
At this stage she is
legally married to Joseph.
"Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce." (
Judaism 101)
Hence Mt 1:19 "and her
husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to
divorce her quietly."
2. A sexual relationship only started when the husband took her into his home (
nisuin). Therefore a child would not be expected before
nisuin too place. A wife would be hoping for a child after
nisuin was completed.
3. The angel Gabriel comes to Mary and tells her that, at some unspecified time in the future, she will conceive and bear a son (Lk 1:31). The normal presumption is that would happen after
nisuin is complete.
4. But Mary asks a surprising question
How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? (Lk 1:34). That question makes
no sense if Mary is referring to now. It
does make sense if she is referring to the
future (after
nisuin) - if she had no intention of consummating the marriage- i.e. made a vow of perpetual virginity because she is not expecting to have a sexual relation with Joseph.
Although the words are in the present tense in the Greek I gave three quotes from experts that say that the Greek tense used can refer to the future.
Blass and Debrunner in
A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature say '
in confident assertions regarding the future a vivid realistic present may be used for the future’ (Blass & A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, translated and revised by R. W. Funk, Chicago and Longon, 1961, p. 168, & 323)
John McHugh in
'The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament' says
I would suggest that in Lk 1:34 the present tense is employed with the force of a future……. Thus the most accurate translation of Lk 1:34 would be 'How shall this be since I am not to know a man?'
Greek expert J.Gresham Machen (Protestant) wrote "
This solution [of a vow of virginity] certainly removes in the fullest possible way the difficulty…. No objection to it can be raised from a linguistic point of view; there seems to be no reason why the present indicative, "I know" , could not be taken as designating a fixed principle of Mary's life that would apply to the future as well as the present.(my emphasis)
I also gave an example of the same Greek tense where it clearly does refer to the future (Mt 26:18)
I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples. The verb is actually in the present tense, literally “
I am holding the Passover with the disciples of me.” but clearly refers to the future.
I also gave an analogy (not smoking) where the use of the present tense only makes sense if it also applies to the future..
Also, the
Protoevangelium of James tells how Mary was dedicated to God at an early age. This fits with Mary’s intention to remain a virgin. Yes, it's not scriptural but it is evidence.
Regarding the "until "clause.
1. It actually supports my claim that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity. In ancient Judaism a couple would consummate the marriage on their wedding night (
nisuin). It was the climax of the wedding celebration taking place in the "bridal chamber" (see MT 25:1-13). So Matthew is making the point that they
did not consummate the marriage. This supports the idea that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity.
2. Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.
The word
until (or
till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek
heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.
Consider this line: "
Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children
after her death? NO
“
There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84? NO
Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age? NO
but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO
For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO
Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO
We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO
except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come. (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO
To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO
keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO