will faith still be here?

[Keraz]

No, Zechariah's prophecy never meant to imply that Israel will be saved on behalf of the apostate. Rather, Israel is saved by judging the unworthy, and by forgiving the repentant.

We both made a mistake by referring to Zechariah, rather than Zephaniah.
It is the three chapters of Zephaniah that specifically prophecy the Judgment and punishment of Judah.

The Lord says: I shall stretch My hand over Judah and all who live in Jerusalem...... I shall wipe out all who turn their backs on Me, who neither seek or consult Me..... The whole Land will be consumed by fire, for the Lord will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live there. Zephaniah 1:4, 6 & 18
I shall rid you; Jerusalem; of all your proud and arrogant citizens.....I shall leave a remnant there, lowly and poor people, who will take refuge in the Lord's Name. Zephaniah 3:11b-12, Isaiah 6:11-13

Until you address prophesies like this; and the many others which plainly refute your idea of a Jewish redemption, we will never agree. Your lack of Bible support and your continued confusion between Judah, the Jews and true Israelites, the faithful Christian peoples, is noted.

 

[Keraz]

Amos 9:8-12 In My anger against the nations, I shall not totally destroy the descendants of Jacob. [All 12 tribes of Israel] My command was that Israel be scattered among the peoples of the world, but I will keep My eye upon them. Proverbs 5:21, 1 Peter 3:12

I know who they all are. Those who rebel and disobey Me will die. Ezekiel 20:38
On the Day of the redemption of My people, I will restore the House of David, the leaders of Israel, Hosea 1:11, so that they may possess all of that area named as Mine. This: I your God, will accomplish. Obadiah 1:19-21, Ezekiel 36
Isaiah 40:26-31 Lift up your eyes on high, consider the Creator of all things. He brings out His shining host, [Faithful people] one by one, each summoned by name, through His great power and strength, none is missing. You Israelites, do not say: Our God has forgotten us.
Do you not know, have you not heard, the Lord, the Creator, does not weary and His understanding cannot be fathomed. He gives strength to the exhausted, as even the fittest grow faint, but those who trust Him will get new strength, they will soar as on eagles wings, march and not become tired. Isaiah 27:12

Isaiah 40:26 is usually translated so as to mean real stars, however the chapter commences with; ‘Comfort My people,’ and finishes with the beautiful promise of how the Lord will help His people go to their Land. Therefore in context, it must be more correct to apply ‘ His host’, to the Lord’s holy people and more logical than to think that He summons the stars, one by one, called by name? Actual;...stars set in place, Psalms 8:3


His people: Christian Israelites, from every tribe, race, nation and language, are called out of the nations, soon after this forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath and are motivated to possess all of the holy Land and migrate to the new country of Beulah. Psalms 107

John sees all the faithful Christian peoples there in Revelation 7:9.

As the other prophets and Jesus say: God knows who His people are and He will call them by name for their gathering into the holy Land. Revelation 5:9-10

Baruch 4:30 Take heart, My children, He who calls you by name, will comfort you.

Isaiah 27:12-13 On that Day, the Lord will sound a great trumpet and those of His people, who are dispersed around the world will be gathered one by one and will come to worship the Lord in His holy Land. Isaiah 49:6

Jeremiah 3:14 Come back, apostate people, for I am patient with you, I shall take you; one from each town and two from each clan and bring you to Zion. Isaiah 11:11-12

Matthew 24:37-44 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be when the Son of man comes. The people then carried on unsuspectingly until the flood came and killed them all. This is how it will be when I come next, at a time when you least expect. Then there will be two people working; one will be taken, the other left. Therefore, be ready and keep watch for the Day your Lord comes. 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6

‘comes’, here means; to take action, Isaiah 28:21, Psalms 68:1-3, Isaiah 59:16-17, Psalms 9:19-20


It has always been thought that this passage in Matthew refers to the Return of Jesus in His glory, but a study of Revelation shows that this event cannot be at the Return, as that glorious Day will not be unexpected, because it is exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ desecrates the Temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

The Lord was not seen in Noah’s time, or the Exodus and He will not be seen during the Sixth Seal terrible Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath.


The next prophesied event, that will come ‘ like a thief’, is the punishment of the nations, Habakkuk 2:3, instigated by Jesus and graphically described in over 100 prophesies, as a CME explosion of the suns surface, that will clear and cleanse all the holy Land in preparation for ‘ the homecoming of His people’. Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 65:9, Isaiah 49:22, Ezekiel 37:21, Jeremiah 16:14-16, Zechariah 10:8-12

Psalms 2:1-12 Why are the nations in a turmoil? People hatch futile plots and leaders conspire together against the Lord. They say; Let us break free from His rule. But He who watches from His throne, laughs and derides them, then He rebukes them, in His wrath.
Y’hovah says; I have established My King in My holy place, I have decreed; You are My Son, I am Your Father. Ask of Me what you will, I shall give You the nations as Your domain, the earth as Your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron, so be warned, you peoples, pay Him homage, for His anger flares up in a moment. Happy are those who find refuge in Him! John 3:35

 

[Daniel Veler]

Four paragraphs presented, and not one scripture reference to support your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, because there aren't any

If you need scriptures but don’t believe what he says you’ll not except scriptures either. Go back to where you wrote that Christ destroys the earth with fire and look after the reign of Christ and see for yourself it is God who sends the fire down to destroy the earth. But like I said if you don’t believe me you’ll not believe what you read.

 

[Daniel Veler]

We both made a mistake by referring to Zechariah, rather than Zephaniah.
It is the three chapters of Zephaniah that specifically prophecy the Judgment and punishment of Judah.

The Lord says: I shall stretch My hand over Judah and all who live in Jerusalem...... I shall wipe out all who turn their backs on Me, who neither seek or consult Me..... The whole Land will be consumed by fire, for the Lord will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live there. Zephaniah 1:4, 6 & 18
I shall rid you; Jerusalem; of all your proud and arrogant citizens.....I shall leave a remnant there, lowly and poor people, who will take refuge in the Lord's Name. Zephaniah 3:11b-12, Isaiah 6:11-13

Until you address prophesies like this; and the many others which plainly refute your idea of a Jewish redemption, we will never agree. Your lack of Bible support and your continued confusion between Judah, the Jews and true Israelites, the faithful Christian peoples, is noted.

Right divide the scriptures is what the apostle wrote. When David wrote that his body would not see corruption or would his soul be left in Hell. He did not speak of his self but of Christ. This is recorded in Acts.

 

[Truth7t7]

If you need scriptures but don’t believe what he says you’ll not except scriptures either. Go back to where you wrote that Christ destroys the earth with fire and look after the reign of Christ and see for yourself it is God who sends the fire down to destroy the earth. But like I said if you don’t believe me you’ll not believe what you read.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We both made a mistake by referring to Zechariah, rather than Zephaniah.
It is the three chapters of Zephaniah that specifically prophecy the Judgment and punishment of Judah.

Okay, I'll take your word for it. Zechariah sounds and looks a lot like Zephaniah.

The Lord says: I shall stretch My hand over Judah and all who live in Jerusalem...... I shall wipe out all who turn their backs on Me, who neither seek or consult Me..... The whole Land will be consumed by fire, for the Lord will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live there. Zephaniah 1:4, 6 & 18
I shall rid you; Jerusalem; of all your proud and arrogant citizens.....I shall leave a remnant there, lowly and poor people, who will take refuge in the Lord's Name. Zephaniah 3:11b-12, Isaiah 6:11-13

Until you address prophesies like this; and the many others which plainly refute your idea of a Jewish redemption, we will never agree. Your lack of Bible support and your continued confusion between Judah, the Jews and true Israelites, the faithful Christian peoples, is noted.

I've addressed every concern of yours, but obviously am not convincing to you. Sometimes that happens.

 

[Keraz]

I've addressed every concern of yours, but obviously am not convincing to you. Sometimes that happens.

What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.
All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.
In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.

 

[Oseas]

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil (NOW RED DRAGON) and his messengers:

And the King shall say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

The Word is GOD. GOD is Spirit. GOD is wrathed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.
All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.
In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.

I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry.

I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.

Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.

So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.

If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.

Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?

And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.

This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.

 

[Keraz]

If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.

There are as I have informed you; over 160 times that the Prophets describe God's Plans for Israel AND Judah.
Two separate entities. Judah has not been a part of Israel since they separated after Solomon's time.
Do you believe the Democratic Republic of the Congo is as it claims to be? Why do you believe the claim of a mixed nationality group, who established the Jewish State of Israel; to be the sole, one and only Israel?

The restoration of Israelites of God, will be as Isaiah 66:18b-21 and Ezekiel 40 to 48, + describe.
John sees them in the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed it. Revelation 7:9-14

This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard.

No wonder you fail to use Bible quotes: there are none to support your beliefs.

 

[Truth7t7]

I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry.

I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.

Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.

So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.

If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.

Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?

And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.

This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.

You continue to claim "National Salvation" of Israel, thats not found in scripture

You claim of a "Final Restoration" of National Israel, that's not found in scripture

Your desires can be found in the Zionist writings of John N. Darby & C.I. Scofield, not in the holy scriptures

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

There are as I have informed you; over 160 times that the Prophets describe God's Plans for Israel AND Judah.
Two separate entities. Judah has not been a part of Israel since they separated after Solomon's time.
Do you believe the Democratic Republic of the Congo is as it claims to be? Why do you believe the claim of a mixed nationality group, who established the Jewish State of Israel; to be the sole, one and only Israel?

Okay, thanks for the explanation. No nation and no ethnicity is removed due to mixture. You will find Indian reservations here in the U.S. who are still Indians by race, but who are also mixed with European races and Asian races and African races, etc. They are still "Indians."

Israel is no different. Jews remain "Jews" as long as they remain in a society of Jews, mixed or not.

This is just common sense. You don't stop being who your race is simply because you're mixed.

Here in the U.S. there really is no American "race." You have all kinds of racial groups, sometimes living in communities and sometimes spread out all over the place. But you can still detect certain racial features.

What causes the race to continue is their consolidation into political groups. In Europe, there is also a lot of mixture, but it's much more clear what a "German" is in Germany than what a German is here in the U.S.!

Judah and Israel were divided politically in ancient times, but that didn't separate the race into two groups, any more than each tribe could be considered a separate "race." In fact, Ezekiel predicted the 2 kingdoms would eventually be reunited as one nation, just as God had promised Abraham one biological nation, Israel.

As I said before, people from all 12 tribes had settled in Judah by the time Israel perished. That's why during the Persian restoration of Judah, they were viewed as still representative of all 12 tribes.

Ezra 6.17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel.

And that's why Ezekiel portrayed the future restoration of the nation as representative of all 12 tribes, even though he was speaking primarily of the reform temple in Judah. All of the tribes refer their common inheritance back to the temple in Judah.

Eze 47.13 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You continue to claim "National Salvation" of Israel, thats not found in scripture

I know this isn't how you apply it, but this is indeed found in Scriptures:

Gen 12.1 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 I will make you into a great nation."

You claim of a "Final Restoration" of National Israel, that's not found in scripture

You can find this in the Scriptures.

Isa 30.19 People of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I disagree, there isnt a Christian Nation in this world

Many Nations might have more Christian's than others, but I cant see a christian Nation in this world, including America

And to claim this is a National salvation?

You are confusing the reality of "Christian Nations" with a supposed need for that to mean "100% Regeneration for these Nations." Spiritual Life is indeed connected to the Salvation of Nations in the sense that obedience to God prevents a nation from being destroyed physically.

But when a nation adopts a Christian Constitution, and the public largely lives by those rules of society, then the nation can legitimately be called a "Christian Nation." And that's what I'm talking about.

Even when such a nation backslides, it can still be known as a "Christian Nation," because it had started out by adopting Christian standards. So a "Christian Nation" is not the equivalent of Christian regeneration or Christian obedience. It is just an identifying label indicating that the nation has adopted that standard, whether it is currently living it or not.

For these reason, all of the dictionaries and encyclopedias of the world identify the existence of "Christian Nations" in history. If you do not, you place yourself outside of the mainstream, and have your own unique kind of communication.

But I suspect you're making a false equivalency between the idea of a "Christian Nation" and Personal Salvation for every single citizen. I agree--that doesn't exist and that's never existed. But we do know that Israel at one time was called "the Chosen Nation," and neither has it ever been perfect! So "Israel" does not mean "Personal Salvation."

Often the word "Nation" is reduced by Replacement Theologians to mean "people personally saved." So if a few Jews lived faithfully under the Law, they were the "Nation," and not the political society itself. I don't embrace that theory.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

will faith still be here?

Sure. since God sends faith, then as long as there are Born Again Folks, and the Holy Spirit is present FAITH will be also.

It's a "GIVEN" that "Eschatology" is nothing more than another word for "Rank Speculation".

Under those circumstances, and because my home church is the Assemblies of God, And because it doesn't make any difference at all what my Church, what anybody else, or what I peresonally believe about "end time series of events". They'll the way HE has it planned.

So - I'll stick with the Pre-trib rapture (since that's the most pleasant scenario), and since I'm going on 80, and in LOUSY health - I won't be here to bother with any of it anyway. What anybody else thinks will, or won't happen, couldn't concern me less.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is just never prophesied to happen.
Many scriptures say that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive.
In Zechariah 12:11-14, only a few remaining families will mourn for Jesus.

Rom 11.11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!... 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

You say this applies only to Judah, but Paul is deriving these quotes from expressions that applied to all Israel, and not just to the tribe of Judah!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sure. since God sends faith, then as long as there are Born Again Folks, and the Holy Spirit is present FAITH will be also.

It's a "GIVEN" that "Eschatology" is nothing more than another word for "Rank Speculation".

Under those circumstances, and because my home church is the Assemblies of God, And because it doesn't make any difference at all what my Church, what anybody else, or what I peresonally believe about "end time series of events". They'll the way HE has it planned.

So - I'll stick with the Pre-trib rapture (since that's the most pleasant scenario), and since I'm going on 80, and in LOUSY health - I won't be here to bother with any of it anyway. What anybody else thinks will, or won't happen, couldn't concern me less.

I'm AoG, as well, brother. I just don't sign up for everything a particular denomination believes. I've written the AoG leadership on this, and they don't respond. I talked with my previous pastors on it, and they said they'd love to hear me out on it, but they ignored me from that time on. My current pastor graciously talked about it, but wouldn't discuss it in any detail. He has no argument for Postrib. He's only Pretrib because the AoG is Pretrib, and he gets his papers from the AoG.

I don't care if you want to be Pretrib. And yes, it may seem of no consequence to you. But I believe a bad theology is a bad theology. There are other consequences to believing in bad theology than just failing to believe a doctrine.

For example, if you believe God won't ever let you experience "God's Wrath," and define that as "Trouble," then I suspect you won't be prepared when God lets bad things happen in your life?

But being that you're 80, I'm sure you're by now well aware that God lets you go through "stuff?"

Take care, my friend. We're not enemies!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I'm sure you're by now well aware that God lets you go through "stuff?"

Boy Howdy!!!

I recall the verse to "Amazing Grace" (that nobody sings):

Will I be wafted through the skies
On Feathery Beds of Ease?
While others strive to WIN the Prize
And sail on bloody seas!

Since I was "Cross-bred" during the Charismatic outpouring in the '70s (which the Assemblies rejected strongly), Essentially I'm now a "Free-Range Charismatic, non-Systematic, Eclectic" theologically, who happens to be a member in good standing of an AG Church. I've been AG for around 53 years overall. And I remember the 'ol "1 strike and your OUT" theology.

I miss the old music, though. WHen the Charismatic outpouring ended in the late '70s, MANY Charismatics were faced with a choice - try to keep it Going (The Charismatic Movement), or re-integrate with Denominational bodys that were "Full Gospel oriented. MANY flooded into the AG, and "un-legalized it", and took care of a lot of the 'ol "Clothesline Holiness" stuff.

 

[Keraz]

Israel is no different. Jews remain "Jews" as long as they remain in a society of Jews, mixed or not.

This is just common sense. You don't stop being who your race is simply because you're mixed.

But the contention of yourself and all those who insist that the people of the Jewish State of Israel, are the sole representatives of the Israel of God. Even the 20% Muslim Arab population?

It simply isn't tenable to make this assertion and all the NT teachings on this subject just blows it apart.
Note well: Jeremiah 11:16 Once you [Judah] were My fair olive tree.....now I will burn and destroy you.

It is plain to all that the Israel in the ME, is not the peoples God wants there:
Jeremiah 11:6-8 The Lord said: Proclaim the terms of the Covenant to Judah. I gave solemn warning to your forefathers, obey Me – I told them. But they did not obey, so I brought upon them all the penalties that I had warned about.
Both Israel and Judah were exiled from the Land, as punishment for their sins. Jeremiah 2:1-13

Jeremiah 11:9-14 The Lord says: Now, the inhabitants of Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem conspire against Me, both the House of Israel and the House of Judah have gone back to the sins of their forefathers. Therefore, I am about to bring upon them a disaster from which they cannot escape. They may cry to Me for help, but I will not listen. Do not pray for these people, for I will not listen to them when they call to Me in the hour of their disaster.
Those Jews in Israel and the rest of the Israelites scattered around the world, who refuse to acknowledge and obey the Lord, will not be protected in “the hour of disaster”.

Jeremiah 11:15-17 What right have My people to be in My holy place, with their sinful ways? Can any sacrifice or offering atone for your evil ways and ward off the disaster that threatens you? Now, you will feel sharp anguish, once you were His holy people, now, with the roar of a mighty storm, He will burn up and consume you. The Lord, who had planted you has decreed disaster for both the House of Israel and the House of Judah because of their evil ways, provoking His anger.
‘burn up and consume’ - The coming fire judgement, prophesied over 70 times. Isaiah 30:26-30, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17 & 14:18-20

Jeremiah 12:14 These are the words of the Lord about all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land which I allotted to My people Israel, as their holding: I shall uproot them from their places and I shall uproot the House of Judah from among them.

Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish you as your deeds deserve, I shall kindle a fire in your Land, it will devour everything around it.

Jeremiah 25:30-33 The Lord roars from on high, He thunders from His dwelling place, He shouts against all the inhabitants of the Land. The great noise reaches the ends of the earth, the Lord brings a charge against all mankind and has handed the wicked over to the sword. Ruin spreads from nation to nation from a worldwide mighty tempest and those slain on that day will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other, they will be as dung spread over the ground. Psalm 18:7-15, Isaiah 66: 15-17, Zeph. 3:8

Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet the horde of your enemies will crumble into dust. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come from the Lord with thunder, earthquake and a flame of devouring fire.
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.


This terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, will bring severe judgement to all the inhabitants of the Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5. The Coronal Mass Ejection that the Lord will use on that Day will affect the whole world, and then Jeremiah 30,31 and Ezekiel 36, tell us how His righteous people will gather in all the Holy Land, to be His people and the Lord, their God. Romans 9:24-26

 

[Randy Kluth]

Boy Howdy!!!

I recall the verse to "Amazing Grace" (that nobody sings):

Will I be wafted through the skies
On Feathery Beds of Ease?
While others strive to WIN the Prize
And sail on bloody seas!

Since I was "Cross-bred" during the Charismatic outpouring in the '70s (which the Assemblies rejected strongly), Essentially I'm now a "Free-Range Charismatic, non-Systematic, Eclectic" theologically, who happens to be a member in good standing of an AG Church. I've been AG for around 53 years overall. And I remember the 'ol "1 strike and your OUT" theology.

I miss the old music, though. WHen the Charismatic outpouring ended in the late '70s, MANY Charismatics were faced with a choice - try to keep it Going (The Charismatic Movement), or re-integrate with Denominational bodys that were "Full Gospel oriented. MANY flooded into the AG, and "un-legalized it", and took care of a lot of the 'ol "Clothesline Holiness" stuff.

I'm younger than you and came in through the door of the Jesus People. I was raised a Lutheran from birth, and joined the ranks of the Charismatics (1970-71). I could not stomach the weak liturgical approach of the Lutherans after 17 years of reading creeds in unison, etc. They meant business, but somewhere along the way they had lost Luther's piety.

I came into the AoG in the mid-70s, and didn't suffer what you seemed to go through. I was raised denominational and somewhat exclusivistic. I never allowed myself to get entrenched into the "politics" of a denomination, and so was able to pursue my own theological and biblical studies with an abundance of historical and contemporary resources.

I read Vinson's histories of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements and am very aware of the holiness background of this movement, and of the roots of healing in the holiness teaching. It was one small step up to other spiritual gifts, which is what the Pentecostal churches preach.

My interest is in seeing the power of God, and not simply a liturgical or creedal approach to God. At the same time, I consider agreement on the orthodoxy of the creeds essential, along with the practical application of biblical truth in our lives--namely, evidence of the "fruits" of the Spirit.

I like your own independent attitude, and I commend your honesty and individual pursuit of biblical truth. And I do agree we'll rise up to the sky. We'll have to do that to be changed, and boy will we be happy!