"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.
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Do you realize that this is an idea that was started with the reformation and specifically by Calvin?
Read this:
there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8
In the above Calvin states that some come to believe for a while and then God takes the salvation away.
This is totally unbiblical, of course, but IT IS where the idea comes from stating that the person that falls away
never was REALLY saved to begin with...
This idea was not present in the early church and did not appear till the 1500s after the reformation.
The problem is this G...
It might seem popular today when listening to these preachers/teachers....
BUT
The idea of OSAS did not appear in church teachings UNTIL the 1500s.
The early theologians did NOT speak of OSAS....
The Apostles did not believe this and those the Apostles taught did not believe this.
We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise
the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.
Barnabas 70-130AD
Let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end.
Clement II 150AD
The apostates and traitors of the church have blasphemed the Lord in their sins. Moreover, they have been ashamed of the name of the Lord by which they were called. These persons, therefore, at the end were lost unto God.
Hermas 150AD
There are pages full of the above type statements.
OSAS is NOT mainline Christianity.
It is a modern invention.
What do works have to do with this?
Why are works always brought up when speaking about OSAS.
I believe in Eternal Security.
As long as I believe in Jesus as my Savior, I am eternally saved.
This is what the Christian church h as taught from the beginning...
from the time of the Apostles.
The modern idea of OSAS is not biblical.
It means that NO MATTE WHAT WE DO (or don't do) we will always be saved.
This is just not true.
Jesus did not teach this.
Matthew 25 is a good chapter to read.
It is based on what we do and believe.
Jesus never said to just believe in Him and we'd be saved.
He said those that endure till the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:11-13
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
We will/can be mislead
Most people's love will grow cold
The one who endures to the end will be saved.
Death IS REQUIRED BEFORE SALVATION CAN BE GIVEN!!
I am clear when it is physical death.
And.......DEATH IS A REQUIREMENT BEFORE Salvation can be given!
No.
False. Our Received Salvation IS Expressly Spiritually Pefected.
DO what Scripture teaches....
Verify in Scripture WHAT you HEAR! If it ain’t in Scripture reject it!
Do not repeat as a Truth, which can not be Verified in Scripture.
Learn as a little child....Forget the False teaching....and SINCE you CAN READ.....Start reading the Truth IN Scripture.
No. A Tu** in the punch bowl, corrupts the whole bowl.
False.
False.
What? YOUR WORD in Agreement is required...BEFORE you can receive Salvation....You think you can Confess a LIE to God....and be Saved?
No.
Whoa....
Fear of Losing salvation....IS BECAUSE a person does not POSSESS Salvation.
Salvation IS A GIFT....the GIFT IS FOR every man....
(Been all through this...don’t you read, understand?)
IF a man DOES NOT TAKE, receive his gift.....DUH, he doesn’t have the gift.
Do you remember Adam IN the Garden...OFFERED every tree to eat from (except ONE)?
AND? The TREE OF LIFE was in the Garden....already given to him to EAT.
Guess what? Adam did not reach out and TAKE Gods Offering. Bummer...
He did not physically LIVE FOREVER!
And the tree they were told to NOT EAT OF, or they would die?
Guess what? Eve reached out and took of THAT Tree and they both Ate.
Bummer.....Now they would both physically die.
Guess what? They both physically died!
Salvation is the SAME WAY....God offered His gift to all men...It is theirs to TAKE.
If a man does not reach out and take Gods offered gift....bummer, he doesn’t possess the gift.
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Poor teaching of any Churches, any era, is accredited to poor Church leadership.
Shortly after the deaths of Christ Jesus’ Apostles, Gentiles were Clerics in the Church’s AND failed as Servants of Christ Jesus to teach His Word TO the masses of People who could Neither READ nor Had Bibles TO read!
1500’s, 1600’s....more people were learning to read. Few Bibles were available...Few could afford Bibles.....
1700’s ....1800’s ....more people were leaning to read. Printing presses were printing Bibles...more could afford to buy a Bible.
The People began reading the Bible for themselves....and Learning what their Corrupt Clerics had been teaching was FALSE.
You should Learn ALL THE WORKS God does IN A MAN WHO testifies of his own word unto the Lord and Receive their SALVATION.......then go Search the Scriptures of ANY PLACE, speaking of GOD “UNDOING” ANY of His Works IN A MAN...
It doesn’t exist!
God does not UNDO a mans Salvation...GOD PROTECTS and KEEPS a man SAVED!
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Peter received his Salvation AFTER Jesus returned to Heaven.
And no Peter did not “lose” his Salvation.
After justification comes sanctification.
No sanctification, justification is also lost.
Of course we are required to maintain our salvation.
You like Romans 4? Which verse?
Do you like Romans 1:5?
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,
Paul was given authority to preach the gospel to the gentiles everywhere, to tell what God had done for them,
and so that they would BELIEVE and OBEY.
Believing is necessary.
Obeying is necessary.
James 1:22
But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not just hearers who deceive themselves.
We are told throughout the N.T. of how we are to behave and that good works must be done.
I prefer to believe Jesus than this new Christian concept that is not biblical.
Matthew 25:44-46
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
From where are you coming up with these DOOZIES? Do you even understand what salvation is?
I am not presuming anything, nor is a laundry list of all that Christ came for the topic of the thread. But you brought it up. Nonetheless, it all centers around atonement.Thanks. Do you presume that Christ came for only one purpose? Believe it or not, I'm not trying to be smart, either.
F,
John 15 is not about how not remaining in Jesus will cause our demise.
John 15:1-6
1“I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener.
2He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.
3You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you.
4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.
5“Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing.
6Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.
Please note what the above is stating:
Verse 1 God Father is the gardener.
Verse 2 God cuts off every branch that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT. IOW, it's NECESSARY to bear fruit.
(those that produce fruit are pruned so they can produce EVEN MORE).
Verse 3 We are pruned and purified by the message of the gospel.
Verse 4 IF a branch is SEVERED FROM THE VINE (which means it can be) it cannot produce fruit.
Verse 5 Those who REMAIN IN JESUS will produce fruit - apart from Him we can do nothing.
Verse 6 Those who DO NOT REMAIN IN JESUS will be thrown away like a useless branch and will wither.
Now, read it carefully F, because it is packed with warnings and tells us that bearing fruit IS NECESSARY...
and if we do not remain in Christ and produce fruit, we will be thrown away like a useless branch.
Romans 8:38-39
38And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,p neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.
39No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Agreed. Nothing can separate us from God's love.
God even loves that that are not even saved.
But where does it state that we could fall away from our faith and become lost?
Can you explain 2 Peter 2:20-22 ?
No one ever has yet.
. 20And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before.
21It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.
22They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.”g And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”
The N.T. is very clear on salvation issues, not wanting that anyone should perish, which is God's wish.
It doesn't state there was no real life.
You're reading into the test what it does not state.
It says that a branch that does not produce fruit will be CUT OFF.
It says "they" were already clean...already saved.
BUT they MUST ABIDE in the vine.
He says I AM THE VINE, YOU ARE THE BRANCHES.
No mention of the branches not having real life.
If Jesus is the real life,,,
then the branches attached to the vine have real life.
Jesus is the vine.
We are the branches...
We therefor must have life.
Jesus doesn't leave...
the person leaves Jesus.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure we shall reign with Him
If we deny Him, He also will deny us...
Do YOU understand what OSAS means?
Think about it.
I think we get it mixed up with eternal security...
There's a difference.
OSAS means we can NEVER forfeit our salvation...NO MATTER WHAT WE DO OR DO NOT DO.
This is what those who believe it mean by it.
A true Christian understands that his behavior is pivotal in maintaining salvation.
Jesus said:
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR as yourself.
The above requires that we DO a lot while here on earth.
At least, to the best of our ability.
Jesus died as an atonement or expiation.
He did HIS part...
Now we get to do ours.
Acts 20:35 Paul speaking...
35And I have been a constant example of how you can help those in need by working hard. You should remember the words of the Lord Jesus: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Don't answer to silly questions.
Anyone reading along should be able to figure it out.
If not....I don't really care.
God knows...it's not necessary that you know.
Some of them believed it EG.
What saved persons in the O.T. is the same thing that saves persons today...
FAITH.
Agreed.
Those who BELIEVE IN HIM will never die.
BELIEVE, present tense.
Agreed.
But justification comes before sanctification - I think you know this and it's just a typo.
If we are justified and sanctified we are saved.
John wrote to show that Jesus is God.
I think John wrote some verses you may not like:
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Again, present tense.
If we BELIEVE in Jesus, we are saved...
If that belief stops,,,we are not saved.
If we believe we will also obey.
Re the CC.
Forget about the CC...I left that church 40 years ago.
Find out what the Apostolic Fathers taught.
Find out what those THEY taught believed.
Study some church history.
OSAS was NEVER a teaching in the early church....
it came upon the scene at the reformation.
And, yes, I do trust the written Word...
The Logos of God Father.
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