Homosexuality

[th1b.taylor]

I am inspired to see this conversation dig so deeply into the issue but for one point! first of all, this is, in theory, a conversation between Christians. I need to draw a parallel here; The day I signed my Enlistment papers I became a Soldier with the responsibility to Obey! The very moment I became a Christian I agreed to Obey! I did not cease to drink my favorite, 101 Turkey, Water By, without the Help of God! In fact I did not cease to fornicate, steal, lie nor any other sin without the help of God That goes for Homosexuality as well.

We are, every one of us born to be a sinner, there are no exceptions, save Jesus! If you read the OP you saw that I placed Homosexuality on the level of Sin! I did this because I have studied my Bible over the past twenty-one + years and God says that it is. (Lev. 18:22 and many others) The greatest danger I have ever observed to the Christian Movement comes from within and it is commonly known as the Catholic Church. The Catholics, in my past experience, will claim every word of the Bible is the Inspired Word of God and is without fault and turn around and add the books of the Apocrypha and Tradition as being equal with the Bible, even though they will disagree with the original Canon of Scripture. They do this in spite of Malachi 3:6a and then engage folks and do their best to pull the Bible Based Christian into a discussion without scriptural basis.

Now, I am old and with better than 64 scars, some large, on my Brain I am loosing a good deal of my physical and some of my mental function so I can be wrong, but I seem to recall Aspen saying he is a Catholic. If I am wrong, then Iḿ wrong but he does present the Catholic position and direction in his posts and he seems to avoid the scriptures like they were the plague. My prayer then:
Please do not step out of the scriptures and begin to give birth to scripture-less OPINION!

In the posts in this string I have admitted more than I am comfortable with in making my point but the truth of the matter is that Homosexuality is a choice regardless of DNA! If that is false then why, when I was in Vietnam did I enjoy killing men so much that I volunteered three times to serve there and then refused to go to work in Africa, with many of my friends, doing the work I enjoyed so much and have not killed one person since November of 1969? If this foolish, non-Biblical argument in favor of DNA excuses is true and decision cannot enter into it... What happened in my case? I´m happily married with grandchildren and have not even pulled the trigger of a weapon on a human in better than forty years, And I am not an exclusive case, there are hundreds of thousands like me... Changed by God because we decided to follow and to obey God!

 

[aspen]

-- Aspen, why are you intentionally being obtuse?

You know darn well they can. The person who is addicted, regardless of the addiction can no only be a Christian, but can be delivered from that addiction.

I have seen drug addicts miraculously cured.
I have seen alcoholics go through treatment and are no longer alcoholics and through God's help do not have a relapse.
I have seen those with a pornography addiction get counseling and with help from the Holy Spirit have remained pure (but vigilant because temptation is prevelant everywhere).



As to the comments of others:

Paul said, "The very things I hate I end up doing. The things I want to do I just don't do."
That meant that he struggled with sin. He worked hard to overcome and God obviously used him mightily, but he still struggled.
The reason he was used mightily is not because he was perfect, but he STROVE to be perfect in Christ.

To say "this is the way I am. God made me this way so he isn't going to judge me." or "There is nothing I am able to do about my problem/addiction so I can't he held accountable for what I do" is not going to cut it.

Words from a children's song sum it up perfectly. "...they are weak but He is strong."

God doesn't expect you to take care of this through your own power, but at times he does say to do your very best and He'll carry you the rest of the way.

It was a rhetorical question, oh wise one.

And of course, once again, in an effort to insult me, you have proven my point. Addictions AND homosexuals can both be Christian - Jesus came to heal the sick - sometimes in takes awhile for homosexual to realize all of their sins and as the sanctification process moves forward, God convicts them and will heal them.

Thanks again!

 

[Foreigner]

Asking a rhetorical question in many cases IS being intentionally obtuse, silly boy. Please get a grip lol

The point was, instead of just throwing out that rhetorical question, why not make your point?....unless, as usual, you don't have one.

If you agree that homosexuals can be cured, why do you feel they should not be witnessed to?

You yourself admit that you have homosexual friends but have never shared the Gospel with them.

You seem more concerned in someone having the right to be saved than for their eternal soul.

If you actually cared, you would share. It really - and I mean REALLY - is that simple.

 

[aspen]

1. Asking a rhetorical question in many cases IS being intentionally obtuse, silly boy. Please get a grip lol

2. The point was, instead of just throwing out that rhetorical question, why not make your point?....unless, as usual, you don't have one.

3. If you agree that homosexuals can be cured, why do you feel they should not be witnessed to?

You yourself admit that you have homosexual friends but have never shared the Gospel with them.

4. You seem more concerned in someone having the right to be saved than for their eternal soul.

5. If you actually cared, you would share. It really - and I mean REALLY - is that simple.

This is getting tiring.......there was a time I was interested in your rhetoric, but you are kind of a one-trick pony.

1. Your first statement is an deflection.
2. First of all, I was in the middle of a conversation with another person, not you. Secondly, I was trying to draw a comparison between addicts and homosexuals - reading the entire conversation might help you in the future; Ducky had no problem understanding my point.
3. Well Foreigner, it seems like you are more interested in pointing out my hypocrisy than understanding the conversation I am having with someone else. Why is this? As far as sharing the gospel with my friends - I share the gospel every time we interact - love through service.
4. Close! I believe people have the right NOT to be saved. Just like sick people have the right NOT to take their medication.
5. I am not going to let you judge my heart or intentions today, Foreigner. Stick to what you know, muddying the waters, in a vain attempt to discredit people you disagree with by any means possible.

You expressed irritation over my obtuse manner of not making my point. Why don't you make yours? You never seem to be interested in proving your point in a conversation - instead your pattern is to oppose a statement you disagree with and then work to discredit the person rather than prove them wrong. Why not just come right out and dismiss me? According to your words I am a victim, obtuse, willfully obtuse, and a hypocrite - why are you wasting time trying to prove what you already believe to be true - just dismiss me and get it over with.

 

[Foreigner]

This is getting tiring.......there was a time I was interested in your rhetoric, but you are kind of a one-trick pony.
1. Your first statement is an deflection.

-- Seems like a rather hypocritical statement coming from you. I have lost count as to how many times you have redirected various topics on this board or changed them altogether.
Like you morphing a discussion about prayer at a high school graduation into Bill Clinton's impeachment or Al Gore's 2000 loss. Sometimes it actually makes me laugh outloud. (I know this is where you say, "I am sorry you don't comprehend the connection" but a quick reread shows it was nothing more than you trying to change the focus.)

2. First of all, I was in the middle of a conversation with another person, not you.

-- This board is replete with examples of you interjecting your opinion to me on something I was talking to someone else about.
First plank, then splinter.

3. Well Foreigner, it seems like you are more interested in pointing out my hypocrisy

-- Kudos to you for admitting your hypocrisy

As far as sharing the gospel with my friends - I share the gospel every time we interact - love through service.

-- Yup. And if you are not letting them know that their lifestyle is one that will condemn them for all eternity if they do not change, you are quite actually loving them to death.

You are leaving them with the de facto impression that God has no problem with their lifestyle. You assume they know you think it is wrong, when in fact, you are reinforcing just the opposite.

4. Close! I believe people have the right NOT to be saved. Just like sick people have the right NOT to take their medication.

-- Of course people have the right NOT to be saved. It is called free will. I have never even implied anything different.

And people also have the right to believe that God loves them so much that he would never send them to hell. It is wrong, but they have every right to that opinion.

But God calls Christians to help them realize that Jesus loves them but needs them to turn away from their sin in order to become His follower, just as you and I had to.

They of course have every right to reject that truth.

But - and try to stay with me here - not telling them about the Good News because they have a right to not believe it, is not what God calls us to do.

The Bible states that the Gospel is offensive to non-believers. But that is the very same Gospel Jesus instructed us to preach to the four corners of the world.

You, by your own admission, don't want to go even as far as your immediate circle.

5. I am not going to let you judge my heart or intentions today, Foreigner. Stick to what you know, muddying the waters, in a vain attempt to discredit people you disagree with by any means possible.

-- "Pointing out facts" does fit under the category of "by any means possible" so I guess you are correct.
I only comment on what you yourself have said. You do not share with your gay friends that Jesus loves them as much as he loves you, that you had to reject sin in order to be saved from damnation and and they need to too if they wish to be saved. Did I leave anything out? (That's called a rhetorical question.)

You expressed irritation over my obtuse manner of not making my point. Why don't you make yours?

-- I have provided my point several times on this board. I provided it yet again after I asked why you were being intentionally obtuse.

The simple facts are these (call it "making my point"):

God calls us to "preach the Gospel to all nations." That doesn't mean just loving people. It is easy to be kind at treat someone well (especially if they are your friends). It also means loving people enough to help them realize that Jesus died for them and all they have to do is turn way from their sin (just as we had to) and ask Jesus to be their Savior in order to avoid eternal damnation.

They need to be reminded that God loves them as much as the person talking to them right now, and that the person doing the talking was also a sinner that had to turn away from their sin in order to be saved.

They need to be reminded that the Christian talking to them was just as sinful and just as lost and that Jesus loves the person they are witnessing to as much as he loves the person doing the witnessing. You can love a person and be their friend, but if you never point out to them that if they die tomorrow they will go to hell but there is a Savior that loves them, will wash them clean, heal them and make them like new if they turn away from their sin, you are NOT fulfilling the preaching of the Gospel.

They are then free to accept or reject. We as Christians are to bring them to that point of decision and let their free will take it from there.

You never seem to be interested in proving your point in a conversation - instead your pattern is to oppose a statement you disagree with and then work to discredit the person rather than prove them wrong.

-- Again, I laughed outloud when I read this. I have again made my point here. Look again at what was posted just before this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
I point out the facts, many times using scripture and you flat out ignore them. You then often deflect or flat out change the subject (did you really forget my Critical Debate classes' critique of your practices?:lol: )

We have one specific subject we are discussing and you suddenly bring in something non related: a different unrelated topic, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, gun rights, etc. etc. etc. Ad Infinitum, Ad Nauseum and try to change the discussion to that.

Why not just come right out and dismiss me?

-- Kind of strange to hear from a man who has said more than once, "I am tired of this" or "I am through with you"....only to come back and begin posting to me again.
Guess I shouldn't be too shocked. You were, after all, the guy who posted a fairwell to everyone here stating God called you to do other things.
How long did that last? 72 hours?

According to your words I am a victim, obtuse, willfully obtuse, and a hypocrite

-- Actually, that is my opinion. Your words simply bear it out.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

You guys sound like the worm and alice arguing. :lol: Especially the "silly boy" comment.

I am inspired to see this conversation dig so deeply into the issue but for one point! first of all, this is, in theory, a conversation between Christians. I need to draw a parallel here; The day I signed my Enlistment papers I became a Soldier with the responsibility to Obey! The very moment I became a Christian I agreed to Obey! I did not cease to drink my favorite, 101 Turkey, Water By, without the Help of God! In fact I did not cease to fornicate, steal, lie nor any other sin without the help of God That goes for Homosexuality as well.

We are, every one of us born to be a sinner, there are no exceptions, save Jesus! If you read the OP you saw that I placed Homosexuality on the level of Sin! I did this because I have studied my Bible over the past twenty-one + years and God says that it is. (Lev. 18:22 and many others) The greatest danger I have ever observed to the Christian Movement comes from within and it is commonly known as the Catholic Church. The Catholics, in my past experience, will claim every word of the Bible is the Inspired Word of God and is without fault and turn around and add the books of the Apocrypha and Tradition as being equal with the Bible, even though they will disagree with the original Canon of Scripture. They do this in spite of Malachi 3:6a and then engage folks and do their best to pull the Bible Based Christian into a discussion without scriptural basis.

Now, I am old and with better than 64 scars, some large, on my Brain I am loosing a good deal of my physical and some of my mental function so I can be wrong, but I seem to recall Aspen saying he is a Catholic. If I am wrong, then Iḿ wrong but he does present the Catholic position and direction in his posts and he seems to avoid the scriptures like they were the plague. My prayer then:
Please do not step out of the scriptures and begin to give birth to scripture-less OPINION!

In the posts in this string I have admitted more than I am comfortable with in making my point but the truth of the matter is that Homosexuality is a choice regardless of DNA! If that is false then why, when I was in Vietnam did I enjoy killing men so much that I volunteered three times to serve there and then refused to go to work in Africa, with many of my friends, doing the work I enjoyed so much and have not killed one person since November of 1969? If this foolish, non-Biblical argument in favor of DNA excuses is true and decision cannot enter into it... What happened in my case? I´m happily married with grandchildren and have not even pulled the trigger of a weapon on a human in better than forty years, And I am not an exclusive case, there are hundreds of thousands like me... Changed by God because we decided to follow and to obey God!

Hmm, I don't know if being gay is a choice or not. I used to think it was.

I didn't choose my favorite color. I didn't choose to prefer brunettes over blonds. I don't choose to like or dislike certain foods.

I'm a very adventuresome person. I didn't choose that.

However,,,,,,,, Just because a person is gay,,,,,, That doesn't make it okay.

I've actually been thinking that the feeling of attraction is merely an emotion. Just like anger, or sadness, or lust.

Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you have to act on it.

 

[aspen]

You guys sound like the worm and alice arguing. :lol: Especially the "silly boy" comment.

However,,,,,,,, Just because a person is gay,,,,,, That doesn't make it okay.

I don't think it is okay either - it just is. We have to live with less-than ideal situations all the time. This is a sinful world and we were all handed a pile of poop when we were born - the fact is we all have to do the best we can. Gay or straight, we still have to live as moral of a life as we can - having faith that God will sanctify our hearts and minds as we progress through the years of our lives.

Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you have to act on it.

I agree. Sexuality is a lot more than just a feeling.

 

[Foreigner]

Aspen, don't take this wrong...

There is no sarcasm or 'gotcha' or hidden punch line in what I am about to say:

I agree with everything you just posted.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, don't take this wrong...

There is no sarcasm or 'gotcha' or hidden punch line in what I am about to say:

I agree with everything you just posted.

Thanks Foreigner, I appreciate it.

 

[[email protected]]

Sexuality is a lot more than just a feeling.

A friend of mine once said that sex is just passion.
Love is celebrating a thirty fifth wedding anniversary.
Love lasts when passion is just a faint memory.

On gays...

The gay life style might simply be described as an attitude of entitlement. (What isn't these days?)

Entitlement because their particular brand of lawlessness ought to be excused from punishment because love or consenual sex is involved.

It matters not that God has established a standard, a law.

Not once in scripture have I ever read of God asking anybody to help Him write His laws, yet we always seem to hear from folks who want to delete a few.

The problem with using love as a justification for sin is that EVERY sin is lovely, more or less.
Trouble is that sin has teeth and it always bites you in the end.

I know of no saint in Christ who has not been asked by Our Lord to loose some dearly beloved thing or person from their life. It can be a horrible wrenching experience, yet those who love Christ learn that it's worth it.

The love of Christ isn't a one night stand - for Him or for us.
It is true love and it will stand the test of time...and then some.

 

[aspen]

A friend of mine once said that sex is just passion.
Love is celebrating a thirty fifth wedding anniversary.
Love lasts when passion is just a faint memory.

I really like that quote - I will remember it.

On gays...

The gay life style might simply be described as an attitude of entitlement. (What isn't these days?)

Entitlement because their particular brand of lawlessness ought to be excused from punishment because love or consenual sex is involved.

It matters not that God has established a standard, a law.

You know, I completely agree that the 'gay lifestyle' is an attitude of entitlement, It is focused on hedonism and self-love. I think the church needs to take a bit of responsibility for creating a spirit of rebellion within homosexuals because we have rejected them, which has communicated to them that God has rejected them. I can see the situation from their perspective - 'if God exists, I am going to Hell - better live it up' or 'there is no God, I am going to pursue pleasure'.

The problem with using love as a justification for sin is that EVERY sin is lovely, more or less.

Trouble is that sin has teeth and it always bites you in the end.

I distinguish between perfect love (God and neighbor) and self-centered love (sin). I agree that we rationalize our behavior all the time to justify self-centered love. Self-centered love always leads to physical and spiritual death.

I know of no saint in Christ who has not been asked by Our Lord to loose some dearly beloved thing or person from their life. It can be a horrible wrenching experience, yet those who love Christ learn that it's worth it.

Life just happens, God teaches us to learn from it. I remember buying a religious article that was really fancy and expensive and I really liked it - I remember feeling guilty every time I used it, but thinking about it when I wasn't using it - it was weird. I prayed about it and God was silent about it. Inside, I knew that I could not handle owning this thing - it was not pointing my attention towards God, but instead, I was thinking about the object; yet, I took no action to change my behavior. Soon after, I noticed the object was gone.....it just disappeared - I have no idea how or where it went. The great thing is, instead of feeling mad or angry, I was relieved. I think it was important for me to pay attention to that situation in my life and when it morphs again in a different form, possibly on a grander scale, hopefully I will recognize it.

The love of Christ isn't a one night stand - for Him or for us.
It is true love and it will stand the test of time...and then some.

I agree. If homosexuality was confined to the gay bar scene it would be more of a cut and dry issue, but people grow up and settle down and fall in love. Also, if we accepted homosexuals we could possibly save them from the dangers of the dangers and evils of the homosexual lifestyle.

 

[Duckybill]

Also, if we accepted homosexuals we could possibly save them from the dangers of the dangers and evils of the homosexual lifestyle.

So then we just accept all who refuse to repent, liars, adulterers, thieves, murderers, etc.? They wouldn't sit in the churches if we preached the Truth to them. They'd either repent or get out. Regardless of what anyone says they "will not inherit the Kingdom of God". Kindness and lies won't get them in. Only repentance.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[aspen]

So then we just accept all who refuse to repent, liars, adulterers, thieves, murderers, etc.? They wouldn't sit in the churches if we preached the Truth to them. They'd either repent or get out. Regardless of what anyone says they "will not inherit the Kingdom of God". Kindness and lies won't get them in. Only repentance.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Did I say we should accept their sins?

 

[Duckybill]

Did I say we should accept their sins?

Maybe not but did you say preach against their sinful lives? Did you say to warn them they are going to Hell?

 

[aspen]

Maybe not but did you say preach against their sinful lives? Did you say to warn them they are going to Hell?

How often should we preach against their sinful lives? How often should we warn them they are going to Hell? I am talking about allowing homosexuals to join our churches, like all other sinners....do you propose having the minister single out homosexuality in his sermon, weekly? Have a 'homosexuals are going to Hell' series, once a year? Should we as the congregation warn them every time we see them at church about Hell? Once a month? What is the plan?

When we can nail down a schedule, then we can work out another one for the homosexual to preach against our sins and warn us that we are in danger of Hell.......

 

[Duckybill]

How often should we preach against their sinful lives? How often should we warn them they are going to Hell?

Often enough that they don't forget.

I am talking about allowing homosexuals to join our churches, like all other sinners....do you propose having the minister single out homosexuality in his sermon, weekly? Have a 'homosexuals are going to Hell' series, once a year?

That is uncalled for. I have never said nor implied anything like that.

Should we as the congregation warn them every time we see them at church about Hell? Once a month? What is the plan?

See above.

When we can nail down a schedule, then we can work out another one for the homosexual to preach against our sins and warn us that we are in danger of Hell.......

Christians don't live sinful lives. It's the wheat and tare thing. The tares will be burned.

 

[aspen]

Often enough that they don't forget.

That is uncalled for. I have never said nor implied anything like that.

See above.

Christians don't live sinful lives. It's the wheat and tare thing. The tares will be burned.

All homosexuals have heard the message that they are going to Hell.
I wasn't accusing you - I was asking you
What is the difference between living a sinful lifestyle and repeating sin?
Who convicts people of their sin?

 

[Duckybill]

All homosexuals have heard the message that they are going to Hell.

You speaking for "all homosexuals"?

I wasn't accusing you - I was asking you
What is the difference between living a sinful lifestyle and repeating sin?
Who convicts people of their sin?

Those who truly repent will avoid sin like the plague it is. The Holy Spirit of God convicts of sin. The same Holy Spirit who Authored this:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[aspen]

You speaking for "all homosexuals"?

Those who truly repent will avoid sin like the plague it is. The Holy Spirit of God convicts of sin. The same Holy Spirit who Authored this:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I've never met a homosexual who doesn't know

If it is the Holy Spirit....shouldn't we allow homosexuals the grace and have faith in the HS to convict them, in His time?

 

[Duckybill]

If it is the Holy Spirit....shouldn't we allow homosexuals the grace and have faith in the HS to convict them, in His time?

Who's stopping them? Those living in sin will either repent and be saved or hate us. Some will thank us on Judgment Day for not letting them forget. Those who die in their sins will remember that we warned them. It is our responsibility.

Ezekiel 33:8-9 (ESV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. [sup]9 [/sup]But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.