Predestined to be saved or lost?

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Daniel Veler

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Predestination


This subject has been debated since I was a young man. Some say that the Lord has predestined some which will be saved and those to go to Hell. They say that this has been determined from the beginning. They use scriptures that were have been predestined from the foundation of the world. The problem with this reasoning leaves us to think, if God knows who he will save and those who he will condemn why worry about salvation then. This is the problem when you use a particular scripture to form your reasoning. You don’t see the complete picture of God’s divine plan.


There are two scriptures I’d like to focus on, Peter and Ephesians.

First we read in Peter the following scripture written:


I Peter 1:19


“But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without

spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,”



If you notice in this scripture Peter tells us that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. This means Before the foundation was ever laid were were determined to be redeemed by the blood of Christ. That means even before Adam was created. God’s divine plan to redeem us was determined then and not after the fall of man. The we have Ephesians:



“Ephesians 1:4


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and

without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”


Yes we were predestined to become the sons of God in Christ before the foundation of the world. But to imply some are chosen through predestination to be saved and some to be lost is not implied here. If we take God at his word when he said whosever will let him come does not pick and chose.


Mark 3:35


“For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”


There is predestination but not the pick and chose this one will be saved or this one is to be lost. That would deny that ability to those whosoever will.
 

humbleseeker

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Before the foundation of the world, the laws of physics (chronological time) did not exist. All knowing God knew the future before the foundation of the world, so he already knew everyone who was yet to exist and the decisions they made via their free will. Hence, everyone lived their lives making decisions according to their free will, and those that chose wisely were entered into the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world.
 

FHII

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Predestination


This subject has been debated since I was a young man. Some say that the Lord has predestined some which will be saved and those to go to Hell. They say that this has been determined from the beginning. They use scriptures that were have been predestined from the foundation of the world. The problem with this reasoning leaves us to think, if God knows who he will save and those who he will condemn why worry about salvation then. This is the problem when you use a particular scripture to form your reasoning. You don’t see the complete picture of God’s divine plan.


There are two scriptures I’d like to focus on, Peter and Ephesians.

First we read in Peter the following scripture written:


I Peter 1:19


“But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without

spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,”



If you notice in this scripture Peter tells us that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. This means Before the foundation was ever laid were were determined to be redeemed by the blood of Christ. That means even before Adam was created. God’s divine plan to redeem us was determined then and not after the fall of man. The we have Ephesians:



“Ephesians 1:4


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and

without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”


Yes we were predestined to become the sons of God in Christ before the foundation of the world. But to imply some are chosen through predestination to be saved and some to be lost is not implied here. If we take God at his word when he said whosever will let him come does not pick and chose.


Mark 3:35


“For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”


There is predestination but not the pick and chose this one will be saved or this one is to be lost. That would deny that ability to those whosoever will.
Da iel, I have spoken on this mamy times before and its never popular with anyone. Its not popular with those who believe in free will and its not popular with those who believe in predestination. But it is the truth:

God not only fore knows, but he foes predestinate. He predestinates overall plans and people. The one thing that everyone ignores is that even though it is true, its useless information. The reason is simple but hard to grasp: while he tells us he foreknows and predestinates, he (God) is rarely specific. He gives signs, criteria and warnings... But rarely names.

Therefore, we still must run the race as Paul stated. Those that finish get the prize, and thats a promise, and he knows who will and predetermined it. But he doesn't tell them they will! God leaves us wondering and striving.

John Calvin knew this and very subtlety spoke of ut. Much to subtile for my liking, but hey... He was the preacher, not me.

Bottom line: yes... God does fore know and does predestinate, and the Bible says so. But he rarely tells us who is predestinated. Thus, we must go through his process.
 

Curtis

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Predestination


This subject has been debated since I was a young man. Some say that the Lord has predestined some which will be saved and those to go to Hell. They say that this has been determined from the beginning. They use scriptures that were have been predestined from the foundation of the world. The problem with this reasoning leaves us to think, if God knows who he will save and those who he will condemn why worry about salvation then. This is the problem when you use a particular scripture to form your reasoning. You don’t see the complete picture of God’s divine plan.


There are two scriptures I’d like to focus on, Peter and Ephesians.

First we read in Peter the following scripture written:


I Peter 1:19


“But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without

spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,”



If you notice in this scripture Peter tells us that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. This means Before the foundation was ever laid were were determined to be redeemed by the blood of Christ. That means even before Adam was created. God’s divine plan to redeem us was determined then and not after the fall of man. The we have Ephesians:



“Ephesians 1:4


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and

without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”


Yes we were predestined to become the sons of God in Christ before the foundation of the world. But to imply some are chosen through predestination to be saved and some to be lost is not implied here. If we take God at his word when he said whosever will let him come does not pick and chose.


Mark 3:35


“For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”


There is predestination but not the pick and chose this one will be saved or this one is to be lost. That would deny that ability to those whosoever will.
I’m predestined to realize that Calvinism is an insult to Gods character and nature.
 

Stumpmaster

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I’m predestined to realize that Calvinism is an insult to Gods character and nature.
As a great satirist once said:
"You have to be chosen to believe in freewill. You can't just decide to believe it yourself. But you are free to believe you are predestined if you want, and if you try to convince a person who believes in freewill to change their mind you should remember they can't unless they are predestined to."
 

Nancy

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As a great satirist once said:
"You have to be chosen to believe in freewill. You can't just decide to believe it yourself. But you are free to believe you are predestined if you want, and if you try to convince a person who believes in freewill to change their mind you should remember they can't unless they are predestined to."
:D good one.
 

Enoch111

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But he rarely tells us who is predestinated.
Rarely does not mean "never". God is not verbose but generally very succinct. Here is where He tells us who is predestinated and for what purpose:

EPHESIANS 1: CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO GLORIFY GOD

CHRISTIANS ARE BLESSED WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO BE HEIRS OF GOD
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [Note: God's adoption is different from man's. God places each of His children into the position of heirs -- heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ]

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO PRAISE THE GLORY OF GOD'S GRACE
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

BECAUSE THE RICHES OF GOD'S GRACE ARE BEYOND MEASURE
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

GOD HAS ALREADY DISCLOSED HIS WILL TO US
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

GOD HAS RESERVED A PREDESTINED INHERITANCE FOR US
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO PRAISE THE GLORY OF GOD
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
 

FHII

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Rarely does not mean "never". God is not verbose but generally very succinct. Here is where He tells us who is predestinated and for what purpose:
Enoch, when you were discussing Calvin you refused to discuss the full content of what he said, even when it was brought to your attention. Now, you have done the same with me.

Had you read with understanding you would have seen I said God rarely is specific in whom is predestinated (as in, he doesn't give NAMES). But you clearly didn't want to comment on that.

I'm not upset about that... Mainly because you also did the same to Paul (and God) in this post. I said that God rarely is specific in whom is predestinated (in that he doesn't give names). You are right: rarely doesn't mean never. But one of these verses is one of those rare times.
 

GRACE ambassador

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Rarely does not mean "never". God is not verbose but generally very succinct. Here is where He tells us who is predestinated and for what purpose:

EPHESIANS 1: CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO GLORIFY GOD

CHRISTIANS ARE BLESSED WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO BE HEIRS OF GOD
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [Note: God's adoption is different from man's. God places each of His children into the position of heirs -- heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ]

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO PRAISE THE GLORY OF GOD'S GRACE
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

BECAUSE THE RICHES OF GOD'S GRACE ARE BEYOND MEASURE
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

GOD HAS ALREADY DISCLOSED HIS WILL TO US
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

GOD HAS RESERVED A PREDESTINED INHERITANCE FOR US
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

CHRISTIANS ARE PREDESTINED TO PRAISE THE GLORY OF GOD
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Amen! And AMEN!! Nothing like The Truth, The WHOLE Truth, And
NOTHING BUT:

The WORD Of Truth!!!
 

FHII

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I’m predestined to realize that Calvinism is an insult to Gods character and nature.
Which God? The God described in the Bible or the God which is in your mind?
 
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Curtis

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Which God? The God described in the Bible or the God which is in your mind?
In full Calvinism every single thing that happens, and every single thought anyone has is decreed by God, making every sin ever committed and every evil act ever committed, caused by Gods decrees.

This makes god the author of sin, lies, and evil, and the only real sinner in the universe.

That is a vile insult of Gods very character and nature.
 

Cooper

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In full Calvinism every single thing that happens, and every single thought anyone has is decreed by God, making every sin ever committed and every evil act ever committed, caused by Gods decrees.

This makes god the author of sin, lies, and evil, and the only real sinner in the universe.

That is a vile insult of Gods very character and nature.
I did not know that. That is dreadful.
.
 

Hidden In Him

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In full Calvinism every single thing that happens, and every single thought anyone has is decreed by God, making every sin ever committed and every evil act ever committed, caused by Gods decrees.

This makes god the author of sin, lies, and evil, and the only real sinner in the universe.


I've noticed in debate that if I bring up how it implies that God predestined for Satanists to rape and murder little children on their altars, this never gets a response.
 
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