Church Bashing

[marks]

It’s like you read and don’t see any progression at all in what you read but think it all instantly is you.

Yes and no.

Some things are ours instantly, such as being freed from sin, and somethings seem to take a lot of time, like, consistently trusting that is true so as to realize it's benefit. It really happens in God's time, regardles of the terms we use to describe our lives. God predestined those He called and justified that they will be conformed to the image of Christ, and nothing will prevent or undo that.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Some things are ours instantly, such as being freed from sin

Freed from the penalty for sin does not mean free from sinning…

 

[marks]

I don’t see it as a different vein…I’m so practical that I can’t see it any other way than I was not dead to sin while still sinning. Dead men can’t sin. Now I think I am dead to sin, but before? I just can’t think something I vividly and painfully see is not so. My brain doesn’t work that way. My brain says, oh…I still sin in my heart and mind, therefore I must not be dead to sin yet. I mean…I can self examine.

An instance of sin in your life then is sufficient to convince you that you are not dead to sin, and so then you must not be crucified with Him, and if not crucifed with Him, not raised with Him, and if not these, then how would you have any part of Him? Is this your thinking?

John, in all of His words about sin and righteousness, as he writes so that we won't sin, still assures us we have an intercessor.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Freed from the penalty for sin does not mean free from sinning…

Romans 6:11-13 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

You ARE this way - dead to sin/alive to God - therefore now LIVE this way.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Freed from the penalty for sin does not mean free from sinning…

"Penalty" isn't said here,

Romans 6:3-22 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed (lit. made powerless), that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Lit. justified away from sin)
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Over and over he tells us, we are dead to sin, therefore it doesn't have power over us, therefore don't yield to it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Death and life. Non-existence and existence, but those definitions don't work, like in reading Romans 6 above. They just lead to confusion.

Separation and communion, those definitions work every time the words appear. They lead to understanding.

We are joined to our bodies or we are not, that is physical life or physical death. We are either joined to God or we are not. That is spiritual life or spiritual death.

We are joined to our sin, or not. If we are dead to sin, we are not, and any concept if it's power remaining over us is false. We haven't yet been sufficiently trained to see past our sight, to act according to our faith.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Romans 6:11-13 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

You ARE this way - dead to sin/alive to God - therefore now LIVE this way.

Much love!

Not how it worked for me.

 

[marks]

Not how it worked for me.

After I found myself hearing from my flesh again, or however you want to describe it, I honestly don't know the right words, only, it's like there was just no corruption, afterward, I felt that same hopelessness against the flesh, and altogether too easily yielded. I'd spent so many seemingly powerless years, and I just wilted. I felt that without this special dispensation from God I had no hope.

But what I've come to learn in since that time is this, by the same faith in Jesus Christ through which we are saved, by that very same faith, we also stand in grace. Maybe that's what I was doing, just standing in grace through God's special dispensation of faith, for that particular time.

I've learned that trust in Christ not only saves us, but brings us into walking in His Spirit. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Walk in the Spirit, walk is present tense active voice, you do it now.

"Walk in the Spirit" is an action performed by the one so walking. Passive voice would be used if it were being done to you, for you, you being the recipient of the action. But in fact walking in the Spirit is something we do or don't do.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not how it worked for me.

I realize we all have very different experiences of life and with God, and we understand them in different ways and all that. Just to say, I don't expect everyone to be the same. So I always go back to the Word for answers. My life only serves to illustrate His truth, when it does, but nothing more.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

That you had to be more righteous than the Pharisees when you were already accounted righteous. Maybe I misread (isn't the first time; short odds it won't be the last), but there's a difference in attitude in thinking you have to be more righteous than the Pharisees and wanting to be more righteous than the Pharisees and trusting God to get you there. And you may have been right when you said I'm not impatient enough, I don't want it enough. Might be one of my blind spots. I have many.

You know it's never our righteousness right?

 

[Brakelite]

I’ve seen people in that fear. It’s the opposite of trust. It usually seems to be, to me, people who were damaged pretty bad in childhood. They fear being rejected again so they can’t trust God. And yet, trusting Him is the only thing that pleases Him. You came out of it. You are the best one to counsel someone like that.

We demonstrate that God loves them by loving them ourselves. If we don't judge them, reject them, and allow them to live at their own pace without constantly trying to convert or sanctify them ourselves, they will heal. I guess though God has to heal us first huh.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, by telling them all the things they have to do rather than trusting and believing God. But this does not negate the fact that my righteousness must actually exceed theirs.

As I said to Lambano, it isn't your righteousness.

 

[marks]

You know it's never our righteousness right?

In the past, it seems God accepted men's righteousness, as He knows the heart, and He can judge us in truth. But He now commands men everywhere to repent.

They used to enter through the Levitical system of worship and sacrifice, but Jesus has replaced that with Himself. Now that Jesus' righteousness, the righteousness of God by faith, is available to us, the other righteousness, the righteousness that is by the Law is nothing, and chasing it now should be considered the same as chasing after handfuls of manure. And especially when you consider we do that at the expense of pursuing Christ Himself!

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

You have a choice to examine what I'm saying or just ridicule it. Up to you.

At the end of the day, this is just one more instance of someone saying, I know it says "flesh", but it doesn't really mean our flesh. And it says "body", but it doesn't really mean "body", and that they died, but they didn't die, and "the dead" aren't really dead, and on it goes.

How do you understand this passage?

Romans 8:10 KJV
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

How is your body dead because of sin? Aren't you moving around? Yet Scripture declares it dead.

Romans 6:13 KJV
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

How are you alive from the dead? That is, from among the dead ones?

What is the real meaning of death, and life?

Much love!

It's all about the mind. That's where the battle is fought. The lusts of the flesh, and the eyes, and pride of life, are all in the mind. Control the mind... Have the mind of Christ... And the body will follow suit.
The death of the 'old man' is the surrender of the will/mind to Christ.

 

[Brakelite]

In the past, it seems God accepted men's righteousness, as He knows the heart, and He can judge us in truth. But He now commands men everywhere to repent.

They used to enter through the Levitical system of worship and sacrifice, but Jesus has replaced that with Himself. Now that Jesus' righteousness, the righteousness of God by faith, is available to us, the other righteousness, the righteousness that is by the Law is nothing, and chasing it now should be considered the same as chasing after handfuls of manure. And especially when you consider we do that at the expense of pursuing Christ Himself!

Much love!

I see those OT services, sacrifices, rituals etc a little different. In and of themselves they held no value without repentance. Without repentance and the individuals actually responding to God on a personal level, those sacrifices were meaningless. There was no intrinsic righteousness in any of them... They were but the vehicle through which individuals approached God, through the priest. They all, without exception, were justified by their faith in every whit the same as us. It was a misunderstanding by early Christians that led the Catholic Church to install a copy of those services with a counterfeit priesthood thinking such rituals and the mass etc offered value without the necessity of forsaking sin. It is a modem catastrophe that views Israel as attaining to righteousness and salvation by their works. The gospel presented to them through Moses and the sanctuary service was in every way the same as what the apostles teach. Except Jesus is now the Lamb, and the veil is torn.
And Catholicism has reinstalled the veil. Very sad.

 

[marks]

I see those OT services, sacrifices, rituals etc a little different. In and of themselves they held no value without repentance. Without repentance and the individuals actually responding to God on a personal level, those sacrifices were meaningless. There was no intrinsic righteousness in any of them... They were but the vehicle through which individuals approached God, through the priest. They all, without exception, were justified by their faith in every whit the same as us. It was a misunderstanding by early Christians that led the Catholic Church to install a copy of those services with a counterfeit priesthood thinking such rituals and the mass etc offered value without the necessity of forsaking sin. It is a modem catastrophe that views Israel as attaining to righteousness and salvation by their works. The gospel presented to them through Moses and the sanctuary service was in every way the same as what the apostles teach. Except Jesus is now the Lamb, and the veil is torn.
And Catholicism has reinstalled the veil. Very sad.

Rebirth, and justification through immersion into Jesus Christ in His death and burial, and the indwelling of God in the believer sharing eternal life with us was not given men before the cross.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

If we were dead we wouldn’t have to pick up our cross and follow. And you will never convince a man struggling with sin that he is dead to sin. He will just roll his eyes at you as preposterous and walk away.

We pick up our cross and follow Him to Calvary. No need to carry the cross after we are raised. We just need to remember each day to die. Believe that in Him we are indeed dead to sin, but alive unto God.
As for struggling with sin. Yes, that's a constant battle. But the battle isn't with sin... It's with our doubts that Jesus has already won the victory on our behalf. We walk by faith. If our focus is on our imperfections, we are looking in the wrong direction.

 

[Enoch111]

Freed from the penalty for sin does not mean free from sinning…

It also means free from the POWER of sin. The Bible says "Sin shall not have dominion over you".

 

[Lambano]

If we are not able to reckon ourselves dead indeed unto sin, how shall we be able to reckon ourselves alive unto God?

Much love!

Logizomai: To calculate, reckon. Dead to sin. Not really dead; only calculated.

 

[Lambano]

For me, it seems, the more I'm serving in God's love, the less I'm thinking about myself.

Much love!

Agreed, which is why I can't really differentiate them.