Church Bashing

[farouk]

Actually, we ARE promised that we will become actually righteous, but when Jesus comes back.

Becoming righteous is more similar to sanctification.

Then there is another aspect:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5.19)

I remember reading Spurgeon saying that Christ is the federal head of the elect.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Justification is the forensic declaration that the person justified is "in the right"

I can’t quite get my mind around what that means…God wants trust and saves by trust. So if a man trusts Him, God says the man did what is right. Why is that called forensic?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. When we receive Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. That's justification.

Yeah I never have understood that phrase. The man does what is the right thing to do by trusting God. What is imputed? The man did the right thing.

 

[Cassandra]

The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. We are covered with the blood of Christ. Justification.
Then we become a new creature. Sanctification (this is a growing process)

 

[Brakelite]

Yeah I never have understood that phrase. The man does what is the right thing to do by trusting God. What is imputed? The man did the right thing.

Christ's perfect life is imputed. His righteousness... We are accounted righteous as if we had never sinned. I think Barney was writing on that earlier... The difference between justification and sanctification. The first being our legal entitlement to heaven, the second being our our fitness for heaven. Both essential to our salvation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. We are covered with the blood of Christ. Justification.
Then we become a new creature. Sanctification (this is a growing process)

That didn’t help. Lol. I really, really don’t understand it and never have.
I get believing and trusting that my sins are forgiven. I get that when a man believes and trusts, God says the man did the right thing. I get that the man must continue in trust. I now understand that when fully trusting and remaining in trust without wavering, God puts the mans passions under his feet and the man then has died and ceased from sin. God has actually then made the man law abiding on the inside of his cup.
But I do not understand imputed.

 

[quietthinker]

I can’t quite get my mind around what that means…God wants trust and saves by trust. So if a man trusts Him, God says the man did what is right. Why is that called forensic?

God is emotionally involved with us up to the hilt and further. He forgives because he loves. He does not forgive because there is some cosmic legal law he is obliged to follow.
Jesus forgives because he loves. He healed because he loved not because he wanted to prove something. He didn't retaliate with the power of violence over his executioners because he loved. He wants us to trust him because he is trustworthy. To love means to be vulnerable.

God revealed to the watching Universe how vulnerable love is when he submitted to those he came to love....they hated him because he loved. They hated him because he didn't use his power to crush the perceived enemy and stroke the ego of power mongers.

'It is finished' declares the verdict against the accuser....he stands unmasked and God fully vindicated.
He will come to rescue his saints in a dramatic public display for the whole world to see.

Those he came to save who didn't want a part in his Kingdom will have the blinders of deception removed. They will see a Lamb and will that Lamb become a destroyer? or will their hearts fail them because they stand bare and have nowhere to hide?

Will God stop loving them?...those he gave his life for.....no no no, he will weep because they choose to seperate themselves from the source of life.
.....and ask yourself, do you as a mere mortal stop loving those you love because they don't love you? Maybe our wickedness would succumb to such a thing but God whose love is higher than the heavens, deeper than the deepest sea and wider than the east is from the west will never stop loving....why?....because God is Love!

 

[Lambano]

I can’t quite get my mind around what that means…God wants trust and saves by trust. So if a man trusts Him, God says the man did what is right. Why is that called forensic?

That's just a term referring to a courtroom. Here come de Judge.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That's just a term referring to a courtroom. Here come de Judge.

I came to the conclusion that men needed an explanation for how it can be possible that God says a sinner who trusts Him has done right and his sins are forgiven even though he still sins, so they came up with a convolution.

 

[Lambano]

That didn’t help. Lol. I really, really don’t understand it and never have.
I get believing and trusting that my sins are forgiven. I get that when a man believes and trusts, God says the man did the right thing. I get that the man must continue in trust. I now understand that when fully trusting and remaining in trust without wavering, God puts the mans passions under his feet and the man then has died and ceased from sin. God has actually then made the man law abiding on the inside of his cup.
But I do not understand imputed.

When we join ourselves to Christ in faith, we get assigned the righteousness of His faithfulness. That is imputation.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

I keep telling you that we won't become completely clean on the inside of the cup until we are resurrected with Him at His return. But did you believe me? Nooooooooooooooo!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When we join ourselves to Christ in faith, we get assigned the righteousness of His faithfulness. That is imputation.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

I keep telling you that we won't become completely clean on the inside of the cup until we are resurrected with Him at His return. But did you believe me? Nooooooooooooooo!

My version is very different…
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

And yet, when we trust Him, we become law abiding in spirit and truth, in the inside.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I keep telling you that we won't become completely clean on the inside of the cup until we are resurrected with Him at His return. But did you believe me? Nooooooooooooooo!

I still don’t believe you!

 

[Lambano]

I still don’t believe you!

It's my reputation, isn't it?

 

[Lambano]

My version is very different…
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

And yet, when we trust Him, we become law abiding in spirit and truth, in the inside.

The genitive pistis Christou used here and in Romans 3:22 and Romans 3:26 can be translated as a subjective genitive "the faithfulness of Christ" or an objective genitive "faith in Christ". I gave the KJV, which translates it as a subjective genitive.

 

[Lambano]

The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. We are covered with the blood of Christ. Justification.
Then we become a new creature. Sanctification (this is a growing process)

@stunnedbygrace, if we have Christ's righteousness, His righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees, right? So we're covered.

 

[quietthinker]

When we join ourselves to Christ in faith, we get assigned the righteousness of His faithfulness. That is imputation.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

I keep telling you that we won't become completely clean on the inside of the cup until we are resurrected with Him at His return. But did you believe me? Nooooooooooooooo!

Jesus healed the blind man born that way. The blind man didn't know who he was yet he was healed.
Is this telling us something? Could it be that to us wayward, recalcitrant self willed murderers comes the message that our sins are not held against us. Could it be that the message which comes to us is that God has done what we couldn't do for ourselves, even while we were dead in our trespasses and sins. Could it be that the son who wasted his inheritance on whores and every other form of self gratification comes home with the mindset of a slave....how could it be that the Father see's him coming from a lonnng away off and runs to meet him with a kiss?

When ever did old men ever run in Eastern culture?....and who would ever think that his Father declares him his found Son and throws a party of extraordinary proportions?.....and who is it that is miffed when he hears the news?.....who is it that has disowned his brother by his statement 'this thy son' when he addresses his Father?.....yup, it's the one who's been living with all the honours as a Son....he's the one who is full of accusation against his brother.....he's the one, though he owns it all who is tight fisted and ungrateful.

Jesus crafted this story for what purpose if it were not to show the heart of the Father?....oh, you mean to also show the ingratitude of the older brother?

So who do we identify with? ...the one who desires to eat the pig swill out of desperation or the brother who owns the inheritance?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’m speechless. One of y’all finally did it…

 

[Lambano]

I’m speechless. One of y’all finally did it…

Almost as amazing, Cassandra and I agreed on something.

 

[Brakelite]

Yeah I never have understood that phrase. The man does what is the right thing to do by trusting God. What is imputed? The man did the right thing.

Let me refer to scripture by way of how I would try and explain it...

KJV Zechariah 3:1-5
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Joshua is a sinner. His filthy garments are his character. Purely from a grace perspective, Joshua's garments are removed without any assistance on his part. His sinfulness is taken away, removed, and replaced with another's... Christ's sinlessness. Joshua himself has done nothing. The righteousness he is clothed with is not his own. Yet here he stands, without condemnation, clothed in Christ's character before the Judge of the universe as if he had never sinned. Imputed as a gift, without regard to his past life, reputation, character, habits and addictions.
We can now approach and enter into the presence of God only because of Christ's imputed righteousness. It is as if Christ Himself is standing before the Father. We can enter into his presence without being destroyed regardless of how far we have personally progressed in our walk with Him. We may yet harbor evil habits... Wicked thoughts... Even addictions... Yet because we are clothed with Christ's imputed righteousness we are accepted.

 

[Brakelite]

I can’t quite get my mind around what that means…God wants trust and saves by trust. So if a man trusts Him, God says the man did what is right. Why is that called forensic?

imputed righteousness is isn'tt to about what we do. Like Abraham, all that is required of us is our belief that what God has promised, He is not only able, but willing to perform.