John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Lifelong_sinner]

There is a difference between a man committing a sin and a person who chooses to live a sinful life, to reject God.

The difference is not between committing a sin and being committed to sin: It takes a one time commitment to commit a one time sin, and that commitment to sin once is just as much of the devil and enmity with God, as it is to do so twice, or thrice.

Committing a sin is rejecting God, by rejecting His righteousness not to commit the sin.

And so, let's not excuse ourselves as Christians, as though committing a sin from time to time is not the same as being committed to sin from time to time.

I lived the miserable double minded life of sinning from time to time, but I never excused it, nor did I accept it as the natural and necessary for Christians in this life, and I certainly never believed the OSAS lie and learn to celebrate by grace.

The exhortation, example, and commandment of Scripture is righteous, holy, and blameless living as saints in Christ Jesus. Period.

And so, the main difference between us, who know the wretchedness of double mindedness, and them that learn to celebrate in it, is one of attitude:

The saint's attitude and mind of Christ is to go and sin no more, but if we do, then all is not lost by grace of God to confess and repent and go on to sin no more.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

The hypocrite's attitude is the exact opposite: when they go to sin some more, and they know they will, it is by grace for the glory of God.

John Calvin was not a purposed double minded sinner, excusing sins as unjudgeable in the soul. He would wrap himself in sackcloth and ashes to see the completely degenerated result of his false doctrine: OSAS.

its unbelievable how bad your theology is. You’re going on ignore.

 

[robert derrick]

newsflash!!! You too are a totally depraved sinner. You sin daily. You deny this because you’re deceived.

Calvinist OSAS is the definition of no shame in their sins, and putting Christ to an open shame with their shameless sins, while glorying in it.

It is impossible for them to repent, who say they need not to repent for eternal salvation.

OSAS can no more repent of sins than the devil, who authored their doctrine of pre-election before conception, and then salvation by faith alone, which is dead.

 

[robert derrick]

its unbelievable how bad your theology is. You’re going on ignore.

Thank God.

I was getting convicted about arguing with sinners about the things of God.

I was actually being lured into sinning that way.

Whew! Close one.

 

[PinSeeker]

Calvinist OSAS is the definition of no shame in their sins, and putting Christ to an open shame with their shameless sins, while glorying in it. It is impossible for them to repent, who say they need not to repent for eternal salvation. OSAS can no more repent of sins than the devil, who authored their doctrine of pre-election before conception, and then salvation by faith alone, which is dead.

These are perfectly ridiculous accusations. There is absolutely shame and deepest regret in all those born of the Spirit in all those who properly understand the invincibility of God's salvation), in any sin and all sin, So your whole premise is wrong. But the great thing is that in coming to God (through Christ, as this is the only way to the Father) and confessing and repenting (which again, cannot just be a one-time occurrence), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) ~ which is made possible by Christ Jesus, Who endured the shame of the cross on our behalf. So we glory in Christ Jesus Himself, Who is the glory of God, and His righteousness.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

These are perfectly ridiculous accusations. There is absolutely shame and deepest regret in all those born of the Spirit in all those who properly understand the invincibility of God's salvation), in any sin and all sin, So your whole premise is wrong. But the great thing is that in coming to God (through Christ, as this is the only way to the Father) and confessing and repenting (which again, cannot just be a one-time occurrence), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) ~ which is made possible by Christ Jesus, Who endured the shame of the cross on our behalf. So we glory in Christ Jesus Himself, Who is the glory of God, and His righteousness.

Grace and peace to you.

There is absolutely shame and deepest regret in all those born of the Spirit in all those who properly understand the invincibility of God's salvation) in any sin and all sin,

Godly sorrow leads to repentance, proclaiming deep shame and regret while not repenting and going on still in deeply shameful and obviously regretful sins and trespasses, is lip service at best and hypocrisy in the least.

I'm quite sure how God is all aware of our absolute shame and deep regret to keep on going on in sin.

Invincibility of God's salvation

God's eternal salvation is not Marvel Comics.

A person's salvation is only as good as the work or repentance done in it:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

(which again, cannot just be a one-time occurrence)

He died for us once for all, we repent once for all. He's not going to keep dying for us, so that we can keep on repenting, while never having repented.

The ones being saved, are the ones that have repented of sins. Thinking to already have it in the bag, so that repenting but never repented as a way of life is nothing to celebrate.

And that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands.

Try it talking like a sinner, rather than a sinner:

But the great thing is that in coming to God (through Christ, as this is the only way to the Father) and having confessed and repented of sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, if we sin (1 John 1:9) ~ which is made possible by Christ Jesus, Who endured the shame of the cross on our behalf. So we glory in Christ Jesus Himself, Who is the glory of God, and His righteousness, who's righteousness we now are, and not sinners of the Gentiles.

You see? Just get rid of the junk of man you cling to, and stick with the Scriptural doctrine of Christ. You'll at least begin to think better about going ahead and just repent and have done with it.

 

[TEXBOW]

These are perfectly ridiculous accusations. There is absolutely shame and deepest regret in all those born of the Spirit in all those who properly understand the invincibility of God's salvation), in any sin and all sin, So your whole premise is wrong. But the great thing is that in coming to God (through Christ, as this is the only way to the Father) and confessing and repenting (which again, cannot just be a one-time occurrence), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) ~ which is made possible by Christ Jesus, Who endured the shame of the cross on our behalf. So we glory in Christ Jesus Himself, Who is the glory of God, and His righteousness.

Grace and peace to you.

I can't argue with your statement. I think we differ on how Election and a few other Calvinist beliefs are defined but I do believe that not everyone who has Calvinist views cling to that position because they wish or desire to live a sinful life. Some do though. I also know that we must slay our old self daily. We are convicted when we sin. Sometimes we sin and do not realize it at the moment. Sometimes we just fail. Not by desire but because we are fallible and need God's forgiveness, Grace, and Mercy. We do not become perfect at Salvation but desire to be perfect and obedient to Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

calvinism is just a word we use to define Biblical salvation. Calvin didnt create any new doctrine. He merely took what the 27 books of the NT said and condensed it to 5 points.

Calvin did not make up the 5 points.

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation? But where is salvation here my friend? This is as bad as the atheists arguing that the universe came from nothing or that we or life, is a random mutation that happened by chance.

This says that we have no free will. This says that God has already decided who’s gonna be saved. Also I don’t think I explained my comment regarding Mother Teresa and Hitler correctly.
This view says that Mother Teresa could go to hell because she’s not part of the chosen despite her being an Angel on earth. But Hitler could be part of the chosen and saved, despite killing millions of people.
I mean how do you defend this stuff?

This means that I could turn into a cannibal, abort babies, worship Satan and in the end I’m either saved or not saved. So my actions don’t matter.

Murder is simply unpopular not immoral. So if I murder and get away with it that’s great. Or I’m gonna move to a place where murder is legal because it makes me happy.
This is the argument of atheists who don’t have objective morality from God. Things like murder are basically unpopular and everything including transgender is fair game.

Maybe we need to be like Aztecs who sacrificed humans and ate their hearts.
I mean there’s no end to the evil we could do …. And be happy about it.

What about All the sick people? Eliminate them all! They’re just a bad config. Who cares?


Why don’t you look into the original message of Jesus my friend instead of listening to this guy from France?

John Calvin lived in Geneva in Switzerland.

Good post.

 

[PinSeeker]

Godly sorrow leads to repentance...

And how do you know, Robert The Wise, that I (or no "OSAS") does not have or is not capable of Godly sorrow. Are you omnipotent?

God's eternal salvation is not Marvel Comics.

Well, Robert The Wise, Iron Man and Black Widow are both dead. So your metaphor is... dead. See what I did there?

The point is that God's purposes cannot ~ cannot ~ be thwarted, which is what Job finally comes to understand (Job 42:2), and he subsequently repents ~ even though he was, as Job 1:1 says, blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. So, if Job had previously repented ~ and again, the very first verse in Job says he had, that he was repentant ~ then why would he have to repent again?

A person's salvation is only as good as the work or repentance done in it:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

LOL! Philippians 2:12... the very verse I have quoted many times throughout this exchange! But we can't cut Paul ~ and thus God ~ off in what he goes on, again, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to say in the very same sentence! The punctuation after 'trembling' is a comma, Robert the Wise, not a period. Goodness gracious. So, yet again, Paul writes:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13; emphasis mine)

More cherry-picking by Robert The Wise. Wow.

He died for us once for all, we repent once for all.

Well, I agree on the "He died once for all" thing, but repentance not so much. See above regarding Job. He's not going to keep dying for us, so that we can keep on repenting, while never having repented.

Just get rid of the junk of man you cling to, and stick with the Scriptural doctrine of Christ.

That's exactly my exhortation to you, Robert The Wise.

...just repent and have done with it.

Never would I delude myself that such is even a possibility in this life.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...I do believe that not everyone who has Calvinist views cling to that position because they wish or desire to live a sinful life.

Right. And I would argue that if there are folks out there who cling to Calvinist views regarding sin "because they wish or desire to live a sinful life" do not really understand Scripture regarding sin at all ~ or they just ignore Scripture's teaching regarding sin. In addition, they don't really understand what Calvin himself said and wrote regarding sin. Really, such folks, whether aware of it or not, fool themselves, and are a walking contradiction. That would bring into question whether such a person was really a Christian at all.

Some do though.

Maybe so. But see above.

I also know that we must slay our old self daily. We are convicted when we sin. Sometimes we sin and do not realize it at the moment. Sometimes we just fail. Not by desire but because we are fallible and need God's forgiveness, Grace, and Mercy. We do not become perfect at Salvation but desire to be perfect and obedient to Christ.

Nice post, TEXBOW. Yes, it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance, and this is part of the Holy Spirit's continuing work of sanctification in those of us who have been called by God and born again of the Spirit.

Hey, on a related note, earlier in this thread, you said, "If Calvinism were true then the cross would not have been necessary." This is not true. Even though God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion, He doesn't do anything arbitrarily. Christ Jesus's atonement for sin and satisfaction of God's perfect, uncompromising justice on our behalf was and is still absolutely necessary. Otherwise, there would be no one saved, right?

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Grailhunter]

Martin Luther....John Calvin....Zwingli
If you are a student of the reform, you have to study these fellows.
John Calvin's problem was between his ears.
Well educated and intelligent and dedicated.
Schooled in the humanities....its like being educated at Berkley.
His problem was with reason. A good brain but a confused mind.
Frustrated with his in ability to understand the Bible and Christianity.
He had the education and intelligence to figure it out but lacked the ability to focus on reason.
His mind struggled with doubt, frustration, anxiety, confusion and lack of confidence.
In the end, he had no idea why he could not figure it out so in frustration he more or less threw his hands up in air and preached right, wrong, or indifferent it was all God....completely orchestrating everything like a play before creation. Like Augustine he thought no one had control of themselves and were dirty filthy rags unable of seeking good or God. So God denied humanity the power of free will.
Sad that such a man preached that God was a monstrous Deity that made all reality a puppet show. What value is there to belief and worship by people that are forced to....what justice is there for a God that predestined people to be evil and destined to hell.

 

[Rudometkin]

Martin Luther....John Calvin....Zwingli
If you are a student of the reform, you have to study these fellows.
John Calvin's problem was between his ears.
Well educated and intelligent and dedicated.
Schooled in the humanities....its like being educated at Berkley.
His problem was with reason. A good brain but a confused mind.
Frustrated with his in ability to understand the Bible and Christianity.
He had the education and intelligence to figure it out but lacked the ability to focus on reason.
His mind struggled with doubt, frustration, anxiety, confusion and lack of confidence.
In the end, he had no idea why he could not figure it out so in frustration he more or less threw his hands up in air and preached right, wrong, or indifferent it was all God....completely orchestrating everything like a play before creation. Like Augustine he thought no one had control of themselves and were dirty filthy rags unable of seeking good or God. So God denied humanity the power of free will.
Sad that such a man preached that God was a monstrous Deity that made all reality a puppet show. What value is there to belief and worship by people that are forced to....what justice is there for a God that predestined people to be evil and destined to hell.

Almighty God is all power.

The mind that thinks God isn't controlling everything within His creation is the unreasonable one.

 

[farouk]

Almighty God is all power.

The mind that thinks God isn't controlling everything within His creation is the unreasonable one.

"God is still on the throne,
And He will remember His own;
Tho’ trials may press us and burdens distress us,
He never will leave us alone;
God is still on the throne,
He never forsaketh His own;
His promise is true, He will not forget you,
God is still on the throne."

 

[Rudometkin]

What value is there to belief and worship by people that are forced to....

Whatever value God determines.

You're questioning the value of a God who controls absolutely everything for His own purpose.

What do you worship?

 

[Grailhunter]

Almighty God is all power.

The mind that thinks God isn't controlling everything within His creation is the unreasonable one.

One of the other neat little facts about John Calvin....He did not believe in democracy. Like the Taliban he believed in theocracy. Religious control of people based on denominational beliefs....ie his beliefs.

 

[farouk]

Whatever value God determines.

You're questioning the value of a God who controls absolutely everything for His own purpose.

What do you worship?

@Rudometkin Romans 8.28: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

 

[Grailhunter]

You're questioning the value of a God who controls absolutely everything for His own purpose.

Exactly a god that denies freewill....is a monster....what would be the point of a puppet show? Enslaved by a monstrous god.
Certainly he has the power to enslave....but the he would be Satan, and our Good God would not let him.

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin Romans 8.28: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a brother in Christ... I don't want to have a free will. God's providence is too great.

 

[Rudometkin]

Exactly a god that denies freewill

Who proposed free will for God to have to deny it? He created everything from the beginning.

....is a monster....

What is a monster?

So if God created you to be the controller of your own future, then God is good. But if He created you in order to control your future, then He is a monster.

This exposes a lot about your man centered thinking.

what would be the point of a puppet show? Enslaved by a monstrous god.

I am not talking about a puppet show. The Holy Almighty God works everything for His own purpose. Christ is the point, not you.

Certainly he has the power to enslave....but the he would be Satan, and our Good God would not let him.

Discombobulated. Please take more care.

A god that doesn't control everything is not Almighty at all.

 

[PinSeeker]

John Calvin's problem was between his ears... His problem was with reason. A good brain but a confused mind. ...education and intelligence to figure it out but lacked the ability to focus on reason.

No, that would be Jacobus Arminius. And it was then just as it is now, because of hard-headedness and pride. Yes, Jacobus Arminius has influenced many, many people down through the centuries, especially people in the West.

Frustrated with his in ability to understand the Bible and Christianity.

The only thing John Calvin might have been (because we don't really know) really frustrated about was the obstinance and blindness of others.

His mind struggled with doubt, frustration, anxiety, confusion and lack of confidence.

LOL! We all struggle with doubt, frustration, and anxiety regarding all sorts of things. But with regard to the Bible, John Calvin obviously had no lack of confidence.

In the end, he had no idea why he could not figure it out so in frustration he more or less threw his hands up in air and preached right, wrong, or indifferent it was all God

That's not what he preached at all. He did preach the sovereignty of God, but that's an immutable truth of God's Word... a quality of God that is indisputable. As Job says, "(God's) purposes cannot be thwarted" (Job 42:2). And as Paul says:

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?' For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36)
​

Like Augustine he thought no one had control of themselves...

Neither said that in any way, shape or form.

...and were dirty filthy rags unable of seeking good or God.

"...the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth" (God Himself, Genesis 8:21)​

"...the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead" (Ecclesiastes 9:3)​

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).​

So God denied humanity the power of free will.

They didn't teach this, either. What people should be able to do is to distinguish autonomy from mere free will. Many will not do this, and that's the cause of their lack of understanding.

Sad that such a man preached that God was a monstrous Deity that made all reality a puppet show.

Well, now this is interesting. What they preached was the majesty and the splendor of God. Yes, there is a sadness to be aware of here, but that is that, out of pride and perceived offense, some still see God as monstrous and hold Him in contempt.

What value is there to belief and worship by people that are forced to....what justice is there for a God that predestined people to be evil and destined to hell.

No one is forced to do anything. Everyone gets what he/she wants. But God did make each one for a specific purpose, for sure. This is His right as Creator. He is the potter and we are the clay:

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have You made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known Yis power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” ​

Nowhere does Paul say we do not make a choice regarding God and His salvation, and even a free-will choice (there is no other kind of choice) at that. In fact, the strong implication is that we absolutely do make a free-will choice. But it depends on God, which is exactly what Paul says earlier in Romans 9, namely verse 16.

...John Calvin... ...(l)ike the Taliban... believed in theocracy. Religious control of people based on denominational beliefs.

Nope. And nope. But he did believe in a Right and a wrong.

Grace and peace to you.