Understanding the Trinity.

[Scott Downey]

And also this, who raised Christ from the dead?
God raised Christ from the dead.

1. Acts 4:10
   let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Romans 7:4
   Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 1 Corinthians 15:15
   Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Galatians 1:1
   Greeting
   Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translation
5. Acts 3:26
   To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
6. Acts 2:23-24
   New King James Version
   23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

etc...

 

[GEN2REV]

So you acknowledge Christ as the one true God then.
Which logically then you deny God as the Father separate from the Son.

Yes I do deny God is separate from the Son ... and so does the Son Himself. You should read your Bible.

God and Christ are both coequal and equally mentioned in scripture.

They're coequal because they are ONE. Just as Jesus states repeatedly.

Then there is this in 1 Corinthians 15, speaking of Christ and the Father being distinctly separate.
20-28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

None of that passage proves Christ and the Father are separate.

And God IS all in all.

 

[GEN2REV]

And also this, who raised Christ from the dead?
God raised Christ from the dead.

The Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

God is the Holy Spirit. (John 4:24)
And Jesus is God. (John 1:1,14)

 

[Scott Downey]

The Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

God is the Holy Spirit. (John 4:24)
And Jesus is God. (John 1:1,14)

So for you, there is no Father then, just Christ and the Holy Spirit of God?

All I see is you keep proving the Trinity.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Subtract the Father from the trinity and what do you call that?

 

[Bob Estey]

With patience and respect, ... you are still not making them 3 separate individuals. You are accurately describing them as ONE individual in multiple roles.

If God is the Spirit, and Jesus is THAT Spirit in the flesh, then they are ONE individual person.

Your current understanding does not fit this official declaration of the trinity.

This image, as well as the official written description (also stated in the 1st post of this thread), reveal the trinity to be 3-distinct (separate) persons.

Your own God-given common sense is wrestling with this, Bob. Listen to it.

It makes no sense and it 100% contradicts the full weight of scripture.

I am not making them three separate individuals because I believe there is just one individual - one God.

 

[GEN2REV]

So for you, there is no Father then, just Christ and the Holy Spirit of God?

God is the Father.

 

[GEN2REV]

I am not making them three separate individuals because I believe there is just one individual - one God.

Then you don't subscribe to the trinity.

As I've shown in words, and diagram, you must accept that God is 3 individual persons.

You do not, so you do not embrace the trinity, man-made doctrine.

Remember this from the 1st post of this thread?

the WCF has this to say about the Trinity;
“ In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons,

Good for you. You have overcome one of the biggest deceptions in church history.

Rejoice.

 

[Scott Downey]

God is the Father.

yes, but why does Christ signify 3 separate persons when believers are baptized?

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

For me that proves the Trinity, which is 3 persons but all of one God.

trinity
[ˈtrinədē]
NOUN

1. (the Trinitythe Holy Trinity)
   the Christian Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
2. the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
3. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold") holds that God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons".

 

[Scott Downey]

This is a page with resources which critique major Trinitarian and Christological heresies.
Trinitarian Heresies | Monergism.

Confessing the doctrine of the Trinity as expressed in Nicene Creed 325 is Essential for historic Christian orthodoxy: The Trinity has been confessed and believed by the historic Christian church for the last two thousand years, no matter which tradition. This is an essential, non-negotiable, cardinal doctrine.

Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism, Noetianism and Patripassianism)
...taught that the three persons of the Trinity as different “modes” of the Godhead. Adherants believed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct personalities, but different modes of God's self-revelation. A typical modalist approach is to regard God as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in sanctification. In other words, God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in different eras, but never as triune. Stemming from Modalism, Patripassianism believed that the Father suffered as the Son.

Tritheism
...Tritheism confessses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three independent divine beings; three separate gods who share the 'same substance'. This is a common mistake because of misunderstanding of the use of the term 'persons' in defining the Trinity.

Arianism
...taught that the preexistent Christ was the first and greatest of God’s creatures but denied his fully divine status. The Arian controversy was of major importance in the development of Christology during the fourth century and was addressed definitely in the Nicene Creed.

Docetism
...taught that Jesus Christ as a purely divine being who only had the “appearance” of being human. Regarding his suffering, some versions taught that Jesus’ divinity abandoned or left him upon the cross while other claimed that he only appeared to suffer (much like he only appeared to be human).

Ebionitism
...taught that while Jesus was endowed with particular charismatic gifts which distinguished him from other humans but nonetheless regarded Him as a purely human figure.

Macedonianism
...that that the Holy Spirit is a created being.

Adoptionism
...taught that Jesus was born totally human and only later was “adopted” – either at his baptism or at his resurrection – by God in a special (i.e. divine) way.

Partialism
...taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.

Related:
Confessionally Orthodox Teaching on the Trinity

 

[Scott Downey]

The Nicene Creed defines the Trinity.
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all
things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father
before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not
made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who
for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by
the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for
us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose
again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right
hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the
dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the
Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and
glorified; who spoke by the Prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and
apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look
for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Scott Downey]

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the
Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and
glorified; who spoke by the Prophets.

This part of the Nicene creed explained
The Holy Spirit in the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed – Faith Church

One very important job of the Holy Spirit, He baptizes us into the body of Christ, and seals us for the Day of redemption.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit is He who makes us born of God.

1. John 3:5
   Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 3:6
   That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. John 3:8
   The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[GEN2REV]

yes, but why does Christ signify 3 separate persons when believers are baptized?
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
For me that proves the Trinity, which is 3 persons but all of one God.

First, He doesn't signify that they are separate persons in that verse. He states repeatedly that He and the Father are ONE in the book of John.

Secondly, those are not names. 'In the name of' denotes that there should be a name to follow. Also, name is singular. It doesn't say names plural.

Acts 4:10 & 12 give us that name when it states definitively that "... there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." That name is Jesus Christ.

Thirdly, if you could provide a single scripture, anywhere beyond Matthew 28:19, that presents anybody being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, it would help your case greatly.

Unfortunately, it doesn't exist. On the contrary, there are multiple baptisms in scripture that are performed in the name of Jesus or Christ or Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Another thing of interest is the Father has a will, and the Son has a will. They are distinct persons yet there is only one God, and they are distinct persons, each with their own distinct wills.

John 21:22
Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

John 21:23
Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”

Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 18:14
Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 26:39
He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 5:30
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Acts 13:36
“For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;

Acts 22:14
Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.

Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

If you want to know what the Trinity is, heres the answer.
“There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.”
“In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.”

Westminster Confessions chpt 2, part 1, 3.

 

[Scott Downey]

another verse showing the Trinity
2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Scott Downey]

Trinity verse
1 Peter 1:2
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Trinity verse
2 Corinthians 1
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

[GEN2REV]

If you want to know what the Trinity is, heres the answer.
“There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.”
“In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.”

Westminster Confessions chpt 2, part 1, 3.

None of that is scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

In Acts 8, there is something of interest related to being baptized.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

When Christ says to baptize people, He included the Holy Spirit in the baptism command, But here it specifically shows us they were baptized only in the name of the Lord Jesus. So this Holy Spirit baptism occurs after they were baptized in Christ. They were saved believers and baptized but the baptism was not yet complete-finished.

Acts 1:4-6
New King James Version
The Holy Spirit Promised
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

 

[GEN2REV]

They are distinct persons yet there is only one God, and they are distinct persons, each with their own distinct wills.

You're doing the same dance every defender of the trinity does at one point or another. You are trying to force a definition of God into a box that doesn't exist.

They cannot be distinct, which means separate individuals, and still align with all the scripture that states that God, alone, is ONE.

No matter how many ways you try to twist it, cram it and pervert it, it simply does not align with the plain Truth of God's Word.

They cannot be different persons and still be God.