Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

[michaelvpardo]

Yes, Keraz. Only the interesting thing is that absent from Jesus' statements in Luke 23:31 is any reference to fleeing specifically from the wrath of God. This was another classic case of Him making them think the end was coming in their time, so they would go and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, though it actually wasn't. If He had told them His return would not be until 2,000 years later, how motivated would they have been? (Matthew 24:49-51).

Truth is that they weren't that motivated despite the resurrected Lord's instructions and most of the disciples stayed in and around Jerusalem until the first Christian persecutions by Herod. No one was actively preaching to the Gentiles until Paul was sent out to preach to the Gentiles, and prior to his divine commission, he'd been actively involved in the persecution of the saints.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Truth is that they weren't that motivated despite the resurrected Lord's instructions and most of the disciples stayed in and around Jerusalem until the first Christian persecutions by Herod. No one was actively preaching to the Gentiles until Paul was sent out to preach to the Gentiles, and prior to his divine commission, he'd been actively involved in the persecution of the saints.

Very good point. It was actually persecution that drove them from Jerusalem to begin with, to start branching out more, or most of the apostles might have stayed there forever.

14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. (1 Thessalonians 2:14-15).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Its ok to have a belief as long as we are open to proofs if shown those proofs.

Robert, I just posted earlier that I recently had an *extensive discussion* over just this subject! Since Jesus is Lord, I have no interest in preserving my positions, if only he will make clear to me the truth on any given matter. I can only do the best I can!

I used to be a firm believer in 21 judgments via the Seals, Trumps and Vials, while some were of the belief that the Seals, Trumps and Vials all covered the exact same time period. Well, they weren't correct, but neither was I, the Seals are not Judgments at all, but Jesus prophesying what will come when all 7 Seals are loosed off of the scroll. This is why the Trumps and Vials have Angels readying the Judgments, but the Seals do not.

Interesting subject, but I'm not sure it's pertinent? Perhaps later?

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. I can prove Dan. 11:36-45 is end times if you will ponder on a few salient points brother. Dan. 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor[regard] the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Dan. 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

1. This can't be Antiochus because he sacrificed a pig unto Zeus, but verse 37 says he wont regard any god
2. As we see in verse 41, this end time Anti-Christ can't conquer the Ammon, Moab and Edom areas, and that is the Mountains which the end time Jews will flee unto.
3. We see this end time Anti-Christ conquers Egypt, I will show in my exegesis below what Antiochus did not do that, three Roman Senators forbade him from conquering Egypt again, thus he never conquered them again, he died on the Eastern front

So let me answer these 3 points.
1. The passage says Antiochus 4 will not show regard for the "gods of his fathers."

Dan 11.37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all... 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god...

Antiochus rejected the gods of his home country, Syria, and adopted the gods of Hellenism. Antiochus pit one religion against another, presiding over this judgment on his own. But he adopted Roman worship of Jupiter to "help him" do this.

2. Nothing you say here does what you claim, namely disprove Antiochus 4 is in Dan 11! You just assert, without proof, that it is Antichrist.

3. Your history appears to be short-sighted. Antiochus did conquer Egypt--he just had to limit his conquests, 1st to accomodate a relative who he allowed to rule, and later when the Romans forbade him from re-conquering Egypt.

From: Antiochus IV Epiphanes | Biography, Reign, Jerusalem, Revolt, & Death
Antiochus forestalled an Egyptian expedition to Palestine by invading Egypt. He defeated the Egyptians between Pelusium and Mount Kasion, conquered Pelusium, and in 169 occupied Egypt with the exception of Alexandria, the capital. Ptolemy VI was Antiochus’ nephew—Antiochus’ sister, Cleopatra I, had married Ptolemy V—and Antiochus contented himself with ruling Egypt as Ptolemy’s guardian, giving Rome no excuse for intervention. The citizens of Alexandria, however, appealed to Ptolemy VIII, the brother of Ptolemy VI, and to his sister Cleopatra II to form a rival government. Disturbances in Palestine forced Antiochus to return to Syria, but he safeguarded his access to Egypt with a strong garrison in Pelusium...
Antiochus invaded Egypt again in 168... In Eleusis, a suburb of Alexandria, the Roman ambassador, Gaius Popillius Laenas, presented Antiochus with the ultimatum that he evacuate Egypt and Cyprus immediately.

Here is three more verses of my Exegesis.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

Dan 11.44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

You have to follow the time-line, though there is a recapitulation that sometimes causes some confusion. Antiochus conquers Egypt and leaves his relative in charge of Alexandria, venting his wrath upon the Jews. Then he hears of a revolt/conspiracy in Egypt and attempts to re-conquer it. But the Roman ambassador stops him. Antiochus then goes off to war in the East, and returns to vent his wrath on the Jews once more. He has left a palatial military tent near Jerusalem. But he dies on the way there.

No one can go find any place in History which ever shows Antiochus conquering Egypt again, it never happened brother, Rome forbid him from ever doing that again, so verses 40-43 can not be Antiochus. It can only be the coming End Time Anti-Christ.

The passage speaks of at least two times Antiochus entered Egypt, the 1st time to conquer it and the 2nd time being stopped by the Roman ambassador. But in his 2nd expedition, Antiochus did succeed in conquering Egypt up to Alexandria.

But the main focus of the passage is not so much on the failed effort at reconquest, but on the initial conquest of all Egypt save Alexandria. Following this, Antiochus persecutes the Jewish People.

There appears to be a regular return, from paragraph to paragraph to the big picture, which is that Antiochus conquers Egypt and oppresses the Jews. It isn't a strict timeline, but a regular recapitulation of the same facts, adding more details.

How many times, for example, does it say the King of the North defeats Egypt? It isn't that he does so over and over again, but that the passage is focusing on the fact it happens, leading up to the desolation of the Jews. The following are all presenting the same coming defeat of Egypt:

11.21 He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue... He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue... 25 “With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South... 40 At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.

Particularly, vs. 40 returns to the "time of the end," or a recapitulation and summing up of the total picture of Antiochus' efforts.

Vs. 29 talks about the 2nd expedition into Egypt, but it was different. The conquest was not complete, but it was an attempted conquest.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

From experience, and surely from yours as well, you don't want to *ever* say "100% clear" unless indeed it's "100% clear!" In this case, not only is it not clear to me, I don't know why it's "clear" to you either?

This is true, and since I was called specifically to prophecy in 1986, about 36 years ago, and since God only gave me this about 5 years ago, I assure you I do not rush to judgment on mere hypothesis. So, as I was more brief on this portion before, I will explain in detail on this one verse and how it can not be misunderstood.

What God gives us is a simple four way directional box. We are looking for deep things, and God made this very, very simple. I will post the verse, then try to place a map below, new to this site.

Dan. 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn(A.C.), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.(Israel)

So, God has given us the only clue/answer we need here. Since we know the Little Horn conquers Israel then he waxes great towards which means he's going to conquer in that direction. Thus it means he conquers also towards the South (Egypt/Ptolemy) and towards the East (Turkey/Seleucus) and this is why Daniel 8 shows us without a doubt that the Anti-Christ has to be born in the Northwest corridor of this simple four way directional box. Now, considering what Dan. 7:7-8 says, that he must also arise out of the Fourth Beasts Head, then this man has to be born in Greece (Cassander) which is in the E.U. There is no other direction he can come from except the Northwest portion of these four generals.



And I never say something is 100 percent until I get it from the holy spirit, then 1000 horses couldn't make me drift from that understanding, we know the holy spirit when we hear it, but some people, sadly, say everything they hear is from the holy spirit, I am not like that, I know when things are of Satan in about a minute, but what we don't hear from God we can't understand, in other words sometimes God is silent on things, or Musterion, to shut the mouth. So, we can't hear what is a secret, but once God decides to reveal these things, we can be sure if we understand the unction of the holy spirit.

Dan 8, as I've read it for years, has to do with Alexander the Great, Persia, and ultimately Antiochus 4. The "other horn" that arises among the 4 horns, emerging from Alexander's Empire, is in my view Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist!

Of course, if you read these things as having parallel fulfillments, which I think is irrational, then you might come up with two different figures for the "other horn?" But to avoid confusion, I stick with the literal, historical fulfillment when Antiochus 4 emerged from Alexander's Empire. The totality of years from the beginning of the Jewish apostasy to the death of Antiochus was "2300 days."

To be clear, I'm not insulting "dual fulfillment" in the sense of "foreshadowings." But there can only be one actual meaning to a biblical passage. To say someone is saying two things at the same time is irrational.

I do indeed at times see parallel passages in the bible, but this is not one of them, Gabriel tells us that all of this is an end time person. These verses never mention Antiochus at all, the reference unto 2300 days is 2300 Evening and Morning Sacrifices being taken away, when we go read Daniel 9:21 we can see Gabriel came to talk to Daniel about the time of the Evening Oblation/sacrifice/tribute. Its funny the translators called it "DAYS" in verse 14, but in verse 26 they properly called it the evening and morning. And Days is then 3117.

Daniel 8:14 And he said 559 z8799 unto x413 me, Unto x5704 two thousand 505 and three 7969 hundred 3967 days; 6153 1242 then shall the sanctuary 6944 be cleansed. 6663 z8738

Dan. 8:26 And the vision 4758 of the evening 6153 and the morning 1242 which x834 was told 559 z8738 [is] true: 571 wherefore shut thou up 5640 z8798 x859 the vision; 2377 for x3588 it [shall be] for many 7227 days. 3117

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days(Evening and Morning Oblations); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Dan. 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

So, within the same chapter the translators got it wrong, then got it right, it makes no sense why they made this huge error. The passage is speaking about 2300 Evening and Morning Oblations, the same kind we see in Daniel 9:21 where Gabriel came unto Daniel as he was praying at the Evening Oblation, thus there is a morning and evening oblation every day, thus 2300 of them would happen over a 1150 day period. That fits inside the Anti-Christs 1260 day timeline.

Now as per to why Daniel 8 is the Anti-Christ, that of course goes much deeper than the above, Gabriel, remember, interprets the dream for Daniel later on in the chapter.

Dan. 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the (1)last end of the indignation: for (2)at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And (3)in the latter time of their kingdom, when the (4)transgressors are come to the full, a (5)king of fierce countenance, and (6)understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And (7)his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and (8)shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and (9)he shall magnify himself in his heart, and (10)by peace shall destroy many: he shall also (11)stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be (12)broken without hand.

1. God's Indignation against Israel only ends during the 70th week, not 2200 years ago.
2. The time appointed is the end (70th week) not 2200 years ago.
3. Greece is still a Kingdom, so in the latter time means now, just before Jesus takes over.
4. God's Bowls of Wrath are filled up via the transgressors sins.
5. The Anti-Crist is the king of fierce countenance.
6. Understanding Dark Sentences means he is tapped in to Satan's Demonic Powers, Matt. 24:24 tells us the Anti-Christ and False Prophet preform miracles.
7. Revelation 13:4 tells us they worshiped the Dragon which gave power unto the Beast.
8. The Anti-Christ will kill 2/3 of the Jews, so that's 6-10 million People. (6 Mil. in Israel, 10 Mil. worldwide)
9. Well, of course the Anti-Christ will indeed magnify himself, Antiochus cowered when three Roman Senators told him to not conquer Egypt again or else.
10. The Anti-Christ makes Peace with Israel and THE MANY (The Whole Mediterranean Sea Region), then halfway through the 70th week reneges, Antiochus never tried to defeat Israel via a fake peace.
11. The Anti-Christ stands up against Jesus Christ, the Prince of princes.
12. The Anti-Christ gets killed WITHOUT HAND, which matches Dan. ch. 2, where the Rock smashes the statue WITHOUT HAND. Jesus will come and speak victory just like he spoke creation into existence.

All of the above criteria only fits the end time Anti-Christ.

I will finish in a bit brother, this got rather involved because of your intelligent pushback, or understandings, which I can appreciate. My dog has gotta go. SMILE.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is true, and since I was called specifically to prophecy in 1986...

We're brothers in interest in prophecy then. As a young child I walked up to the top of the stairs and shouted down to my brother and his friend, playing in the basement, "God and Jesus are coming, and there's going to be a whole new world!" I felt even at that young age that people weren't taking the times seriously, because judgment is at hand.

Dan. 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn(A.C.), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.(Israel)

Once again, a significant number of influential Christian scholars believe this refers to Antiochus 4, who conquered Egypt, fought Persia, and persecuted Israel.

And I never say something is 100 percent until I get it from the holy spirit...

So if you are saying you are 100% sure of what you say in this post, I'm 99.9% sure you *think* you're being told things "clearly" by the Holy Spirit. I've been studying these things for decades along with you. Most of what I get is from scholars who I trust, though I don't accept 100% everything they personally believe. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me. At the same time, I know He wants us to "study to show ourselves approved." I *don't* think He wants us to be self-aggrandizing about it!

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days(Evening and Morning Oblations); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Dan. 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

I'm aware there are a couple of ways to look at it, the way you do and the way I do. I've studied J. Barton Payne on this, who wrote an Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy. I came to the conclusion that from the time trouble began over who was high priest in the time of Antiochus 4 to Antiochus' death was literally 2300 days.

Dan. 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the (1)last end of the indignation: for (2)at the time appointed the end shall be.

This seems to be your main argument that the prophecy has to do with the endtimes, the fact that we read "the end" or "come to the full," or "in the latter time." Others read this as a non-eschatological phrase that may or may not be applied to an eschatological reference. If it is non-eschatological, the phrase means something like, "the end of a reign," or "the latter times of this kingdom," or "the resolution of these current matters." It does not have to mean "the end of time" or "the last years of the age."

1. God's Indignation against Israel only ends during the 70th week, not 2200 years ago.
2. The time appointed is the end (70th week) not 2200 years ago.
3. Greece is still a Kingdom, so in the latter time means now, just before Jesus takes over.
4. God's Bowls of Wrath are filled up via the transgressors sins.
5. The Anti-Crist is the king of fierce countenance.
6. Understanding Dark Sentences means he is tapped in to Satan's Demonic Powers, Matt. 24:24 tells us the Anti-Christ and False Prophet preform miracles.
7. Revelation 13:4 tells us they worshiped the Dragon which gave power unto the Beast.
8. The Anti-Christ will kill 2/3 of the Jews, so that's 6-10 million People. (6 Mil. in Israel, 10 Mil. worldwide)
9. Well, of course the Anti-Christ will indeed magnify himself, Antiochus cowered when three Roman Senators told him to not conquer Egypt again or else.
10. The Anti-Christ makes Peace with Israel and THE MANY (The Whole Mediterranean Sea Region), then halfway through the 70th week reneges, Antiochus never tried to defeat Israel via a fake peace.
11. The Anti-Christ stands up against Jesus Christ, the Prince of princes.
12. The Anti-Christ gets killed WITHOUT HAND, which matches Dan. ch. 2, where the Rock smashes the statue WITHOUT HAND. Jesus will come and speak victory just like he spoke creation into existence.

All of the above criteria only fits the end time Anti-Christ.

But I thought you were trying to prove you got this out of Dan 8? Some of these things have nothing to do with Dan 8! You are merging together info from the Revelation and from Dan 8, and perhaps also from Dan 11. You are assuming what you wish to prove.

I suggest you stop relying on your "calling" and on your claims to be "led by the Spirit." We all hope to do that, but in humility should let the Lord "sing our praises" when we've done our homework? That being said, I appreciate your sharing. I have heard these arguments before, but it's nice getting to know someone who shares my interest in prophecy. I'm *not* in competition with you!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Ok, well so you understand, we have differing views on where the Antichrist will arise from. I'm just sort of asking in order to get a better handle on what your eschatology is.


Here would be a point of departure between us. I think all of Daniel 8 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV, except v. 13-14, which are inserted into the narrative to again leave the suggestion that the end could be at any time (Daniel and Isaiah's era included). But the angels of God here are asking about the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy and how long it will be before the true Antichrist comes, so these two verses actually point to the end-times that still lay ahead of us. This is another reason why I was asking you about partial fulfillments.

Anyway, here's a piece about how the rest of Daniel 8 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. He gives an application for how v.13-14 were potentially "fulfilled" back then as well, but my position is that the answer given by the other angel was ultimately in reference to the 3 and 1/2 years of the end-time tribulation before the Day of wrath and Christ's return:
Daniel Chapter 8

No use in reposting, I tackled this Daniel 8 question in an above post.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I get your parallel with Antiochus 4 and the Jewish Priest. It appears to present a pattern for a Gentile Antichrist and a Jewish False Prophet. But I don't see any problem with seeing the pattern differently, as a European Antichrist and a European False Pope? Why do the Jews have to figure into it at all, except that in Dan 7 the Antichrist presents a major disturbance to all saints, including the Jews?

Because the bible is abut the Jews, the reason they figure in is because after the Rapture the Jews have 7 years left to repent, they have never repented, they must repent before the Dan. 9:24-27 prophecy can be fulfilled. As Antiochus and Jason were both types so will the coming Anti-Christ and False Prophet be Greek and Jewish. God does this to give us understanding via shadows beforehand.

Much of the OT Scriptures had to do with Israel's history. But God began with Israel as a plan to reach out to the whole world. Israel's history became a model and a warning for future Christian nations. We don't have to read Antiochus 4, and his persecution of Israel, and apply the False Prophet of Revelation strictly to Israel.

The False Prophet has two horns like a lamb. This may indicate he speaks "Christianese," a message of "peace." Christian Rome had two horns, the Eastern branch and the Western branch. They roughly are the equivalent of the Orthodox and Catholic branches of the Christian Church. Perhaps the False Prophet will be a kind of False Pope presiding over both branches of the historic Church, attempting to lead it astray?

And after the Rapture God finishes with Israel. God has given us the two TYPES, one was Antiochus and one was Jason. It's not going to be a Pope and the RCC nor an Islamic A.C. both are head fakes by Satan.

Dan 9 does not appear to refer to a 7 year "Peace Treaty!" It is a difficult prophecy, but I think it refers to Christ's 1st Coming to validate the OT Law as fulfilled in his death. He confirms the Covenant for a period of "one Week," but that one Week becomes only half a Week when Christ is "cut off" in the "midst of the Week."

Its clearly end time brother, the people (Romans/Europeans) of the prince to come (AC, 2000 some odd years later) makes an agreement with Israel and THE MANY for one week or 7 years.

You lose me there. I've been reading the Bible for decades and have yet to come across any explicit theology in the Bible teaching a Pretrib Rapture? There you go!

It can be no other, its an easy read, as per those who can't see it I just don't understand, its like 2 + 2 = 4. Its there, but like Paul said, I tell you a secret, so since its about the Gentiles and not the Jews, its not a theme in the Jewish bible. So we have to dig ot out, just like we have to dig out the fact the Babylon stands for the Whole World because God couldn't tell John to wrote down that the whole world was going to be judged/destroyed, because that would have offended the Romans, they would have seen that as sedition, but when it was said Babylon was going to be judged and destroyed they all laughed at the "wacky Christians", knowing Babylon was a dead city.

Some things we have to dig out, I see many who still think Babylon will be revived, even though God said Babylon would never be inhabited again.

Isaiah 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

 

[Oseas]

I do believe it budded again in 1948. Or 1967.

But it budded again to what? The great city today, I mean the city of JERUSALEM, where also our Lord was crucified, it is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, and is infested of idolatries and witcheries. By the way, the Word of GOD reveals that they will kill the two witnesses of GOD.

As JESUS said to the Jews - Matt. 23:v.33-35:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (This prophecy will fulfill now in the Judgment Seat of Christ)
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (This prophecy of JESUS will fulfill LITERALLY from now on)

Dialogue between Jews and JESUS: John 8KJV

Jews said: - We be Abraham's seed,...John 8:v.33KJV
- JESUS said: - I know that ye are Abraham's seed...John 8:v.37KJV (Positive)

Jews said: - Abraham is our father.... John 8:v.39KJV
- JESUS said:- If ye were Abraham's children...John 8:v.39KJV (If???? hum!!!)

Jews said: - We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. John 8:v.41KJV
- JESUS said: - If GOD were your Father...John 8:v.42KJV (If???? hum!!!)
- JESUS said to the Jews: Why do ye not understand my speech? John 8:v.43
- JESUS openly and emphaticaly said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil..., John 8:v.44 - (Should we believe in JESUS in this and confirm His words, or not? I'm asking because the words of MY LORD were very harsh)

In Revelation 12:v. 9-KJV, JESUS said: And the great Dragon (the red Dragon) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him. (By the way, "red Dragon" is the new name of the Devil in this time of Apocalypse, and he deceiveth the whole world).

Let no man deceive you by any means: for the day is near, and the MAN of sin will be revealed, the SON of perdition (he may be of the tribe of Dan); Who will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God -in JERUSALEM, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt-, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

So if you are saying you are 100% sure of what you say in this post, I'm 99.9% sure you *think* you're being told things "clearly" by the Holy Spirit. I've been studying these things for decades along with you. Most of what I get is from scholars who I trust, though I don't accept 100% everything they personally believe. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me. At the same time, I know He wants us to "study to show ourselves approved." I *don't* think He wants us to be self-aggrandizing about it!

In that case all the Prophet's would have been self aggrandizing, so I don't buy that argument at all, truth is what the truth is, how many or who understand it is not really relevant. God doesn't give us His truths so we will bury in the sand. We need to spread the Gospel, fir the most part a lot of people not called unto Prophecy want to be in on it, so we get a lot of conflated views on the subject, I try to let each person do his own thing while I am teaching God's truths, I hear God because I seek God, when everyone ese was out having a good time at 23 I was in my room praying all night, so I think God reveals Himself those who seek Him in earnest.

But I thought you were trying to prove you got this out of Dan 8? Some of these things have nothing to do with Dan 8! You are merging together info from the Revelation and from Dan 8, and perhaps also from Dan 11. You are assuming what you wish to prove.

It proves 100 percent that Dan. 8 is end times.

Got to get some sleep, I am no good wen I am dozing off.

 

[Oseas]

Hi, Oseas. This discussion would branch off into who we think the Antichrist will be. I've never subscribed to the theory that he will be Jewish.

A Jewish Man, surreptitiously like a LAMB of two horns, in fact a FALSE LAMB, will manifest himself in Israel as a messiah, a false messiah, of course, actually he is/will be an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and SPIRITIST messiah.

The COURT which is without the temple it is/will be given unto the Gentiles, and the Holy City shall they tread under foot forty and two months-1.260 days- confirmed in Revelation 13:v.5? (IT WILL BE FIRST HALF OF THE LAST WEEK-DANIEL 9:v.27).

What kind of fruit will the fig tree produce? If the false messiah will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of GOD, shewing himself that he is God?

The MAN Beast like a LAMB will ascend out of the bottomless pit and will make WAR against the witnesses of GOD, and shall overcome them, and kill them, and their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city -JERUSALEM- which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

What kind of fruit will the fig tree produce? If the false messiah-John 5:v.43-47-, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders? And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause GOD shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: That they ALL, yes, ALL might be DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness?

The Abomination of Desolation that JESUS referred in Matt.24:v.15 will be established in Israel by a Jewish false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR, as JESUS revealed? - John 5:v.43-47 - Check it.

What kind of fruit will the fig tree produce? Once the most High GOD shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a LIE, belive in the false messiah? That they ALL, yes, they ALL might be DAMNED who believed not the truth-believed not in JESUS-, but had pleasure in unrighteousness? JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

Be careful or get ready

 

[Davy]

Well at least you've deigned to give me an explanation for how you interpret those passages, LoL.

Davy, this passage isn't talking about His second coming, it's a warning about the fall of Jerusalem that would happen about 40 years later. This is why He says the women who were weeping for Him, "weep for yourselves and for your children." He was warning them that the place their children were living in would be conquered, and they had much more to weep for than just Him. This is why He added, "For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?” He was saying, "If you are weeping when your city is still alive and well, how much more will you weep when it is like dry wood and fit only to be burned in the fires?"
....

Nice try, but that false Preterist interpretation won't work. What Jesus told them from the Isaiah 54 parable had nothing to do with the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. The context of the Isaiah 54 Scripture where Jesus quoted the 'Blessed are the barren' idea reveals this clearly. And these Scriptures below also reveal the timing of that parable the "Daughters of Jerusalem" will say to His elect...

Luke 23:29-30
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

It is about the below... timing...

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

What timing is that above Revelation 6 Scripture O' great scholar??

It's about the day of Christ's future return! That... is when those will be wishing for the mountains and the hills to, "Cover us". It will because of seeing Christ's coming. Even Jesus showed this in Matthew 24:30 about all the tribes of the earth mourning when they see His coming in the clouds...

Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

Your biggest ERROR was how you completely... missed the subject of the Luke 23:27-30 verses. Jesus showed it's the daughters of Jerusalem and their children that will say that, "Blessed are the barren...", not about themselves, but about Christ's elect! You show you do not have a clue what that Isaiah 54 parable means.

 

[Davy]

‘fall on us and hide us’, This is paralleled by Revelation 6:15-17 and Isaiah 2:21, both in passages that vividly describe the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. As Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry, what follows in verse 2b is the Day when He will destroy His enemies: those who attack Israel and all the ungodly peoples. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 5:25, Isaiah 33:10-12, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Joel 1:15, Psalms 97:3-5, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27

That in bold above is exactly my point of when the unbelieving Jews will say that, "Blessed are the barren..." about Christ's elect who remained faithful to the end of this world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In that case all the Prophet's would have been self aggrandizing, so I don't buy that argument at all, truth is what the truth is, how many or who understand it is not really relevant. God doesn't give us His truths so we will bury in the sand. We need to spread the Gospel, fir the most part a lot of people not called unto Prophecy want to be in on it, so we get a lot of conflated views on the subject, I try to let each person do his own thing while I am teaching God's truths, I hear God because I seek God, when everyone ese was out having a good time at 23 I was in my room praying all night, so I think God reveals Himself those who seek Him in earnest.


It proves 100 percent that Dan. 8 is end times.

Got to get some sleep, I am no good wen I am dozing off.

No, the Prophets were not self-aggrandizing, though they did suffer the same "pride" issues we do. We have to bury the "pride" thing. If you don't agree, then you'll have to be vindicated or humiliated by your own self-declared standard. I play it safe, personally.

No, you didn't prove that Dan 8 is the endtimes--not by any percentage. Your claiming to know something, and then verifying that by another claim, that you're inspired by the Holy Spirit whereas others are not, will make points with nobody. It is a claim upon a claim.

It's nice to know you don't have a self-esteem problem. But you may have a problem with grandiosity. I'd love to get along with you and compare notes, but you're making it difficult. Comparing yourself to the Prophets may be okay, but you then have to match your words with your character.

If you are a reasonable person, and I assume you are, then to prove Dan 8 is endtimes you would have to do more than find a word that says "end," or "time of the end." Words mean what they mean *in context.*

If "time of the end" refers to the time of the end of a particular reign, or if "in the latter days" refers in context to the last days of a particular king, then "the end" is not enough, "latter days" is not enough.

You've proven nothing if you can't prove the words have a context that indicates the end of the age, and I just don't see that anywhere. Until you can show otherwise, "at the time of the end" will mean the end of a particular struggle, and "when these things are completed" will mean things will find an eventual resolution.

Hope to find you alert and cheerful in the morning! But this kind of discussion is not my favorite...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Because the bible is abut the Jews, the reason they figure in is because after the Rapture the Jews have 7 years left to repent, they have never repented, they must repent before the Dan. 9:24-27 prophecy can be fulfilled. As Antiochus and Jason were both types so will the come Anti-Christ and False Prophet be Greek and Jewish. God does this to give us understanding.

That statement is predicated on the assumption that Antiochus and Jason are types of Anti-Christ and the False Prophet to the degree they represent particular races. And I only have your word on that--not the Bible's word.

I believe Dan 9.24-27 has already been fulfilled. The 70 Weeks have already been fulfilled. The 70th Week was fulfilled when Christ came to confirm the covenant, thus fulfilling the 70 Weeks prophecy. It was the covenant of Law that was confirmed, completing that covenant of Law in the New Covenant. At least, that's how I see it. A prophecy of 70 Weeks that began in 457 BC can hardly still have a future fulfillment!

The Jews, as a People, will not, I believe, repent until Christ returns. The idea that they repent is taken from the 144,000 in Rev 7 and 14, which seem to refer to Jews that have *already* converted to Christ.

The OT Bible focuses primarily on the Jews because Israel was made to be the first and model nations for NT Christian nations. Once we enter into NT Scripture, there is a change from "just Israel" to "Israel and the many Christian nations."

I believe Antichrist will be a European leader. The arch-type of Antichrist comes from non-Jews like Antiochus 4, the Egyptian Pharaoh, Hitler, etc. He heads the Roman Confederation, as I see it.

I don't know why the False Prophet would be any different? He may or may not be Jewish. I only know that he leads people not to worship himself as Messiah, but the Antichrist as a Messiah figure. If he is not a Messiah figure himself, then I doubt he is Jewish.

As a Beast having two horns like a lamb, and one called a "Prophet," I suspect he is a false religious leader within the Church. This isn't now about only Israel, but about the whole world. And so, I feel the two beasts are about two Gentile leaders who preside over a reconstituted Roman Empire.

It can be no other, its an easy read for me for those who cant se it I just don't understand, its like 2 + 2 = 4.

You may be projecting what you want to believe? Studying is never easy. And if you haven't studied, then it would virtually be impossible. But I believe you have studied. So you should be honest and admit, there have been many, many questions you've encountered through the years in the Biblical Prophets? I certainly have. And I've had to wait for many years for some of the answers that eventually came in. I remain humble about it though. And I wish you would too?

 

[Davy]

Another thing to note about @Hidden In Him , is how he also completely bypassed Christ's and Apostle Paul's usage of the Isaiah 54 metaphor about God being our Husband, and Apostle Paul's idea of presenting those in Christ to Him as "a chaste virgin", which is part of the context of the Isaiah 54:1 parable. Bypassing that connection of Isaiah 54 with The New Testament either means Hidden In Him doesn't read much New Testament Scripture, or he simply chose to disregard Bible Scripture and instead push a false doctrine from men. You decide.

Here is the Isaiah 54 metaphors further explained for those brethren not familiar with where Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul got the idea of the Christian supposed to be like a chaste virgin waiting on Jesus...

The below Scripture is our Heavenly Father speaking. And the subject is both about His faithful, and about Jerusalem when He will cleanse it of the wicked (at the end of this world of course)...

Isa 54:1-14
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

That is a metaphor God is giving about 'spiritual' harlotry. It is in the SPIRITUAL sense, so don't go getting all bent out of shape thinking this is about literal pregnancy and child birth. God is simply using those ideas to relate to either being found faithful to Him when He returns, or being found a spiritual harlot, having joined with another in His place (i.e., like to the coming Antichrist who comes first).

The woman whose womb is 'barren' without child is told to Sing, and break forth into singing, (i.e., for joy), because she did not... travail with child. Do you recall Apostle Paul also using that 'travail with child' idea in 1 Thessalonians 5 about the wicked and deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety" when the "sudden destruction" comes upon them (on the last day)?

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

You know, that 'travail with child' idea was also mentioned by God to the daughters of Jerusalem back in history too when God would send the king of Babylon upon them and take them captive to Babylon (see Micah 4:9-10). But notice that Micah 4:9-10 event was old history when Apostle Paul said the above in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 about the last day of this world.


Isaiah 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

That is now pointing to Jerusalem, the holy land, in final, when Christ gathers His elect there at His future return. The believing Gentiles are also to inhabit that land under Christ Jesus. Obviously, that has not happened yet today, because the majority there still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah.


4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

That is about both... Christ's elect that is forsaken for a short time (especially at the very end, the "great tribulation"), which includes how Jerusalem also has been in that forsaken mode involving Christ Jesus. The Book of Lamentations used that "widowhood" idea because of the historical king of Babylon coming upon Jerusalem to destroy the city, temple, and wall. Jesus used it too but later, in His Book of Revelation about Jerusalem at the very end of this world...

Rev 18:7
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."
KJV

That above is what the Babylon Harlot for the end of this world will say once she is married to the coming Antichrist. That Revelation Harlot we are told is a "great city" per the last verse of Revelation 17. It is about Jerusalem in a fallen idol worship condition by the coming false-Messiah, prior to Lord Jesus' coming. The Harlot says she sits as a queen, and is no widow, because it shows she is then married (but to the Antichrist instead at the end of this world).


Here is where Apostle Paul was quoting from about God being our True Husband per 2 Corinthians 11...

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall He be called.

And Apostle Paul said there he 'espoused' us to One Husband, and he desired to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin" (2 Corinthians 11:2). Thus Paul was pulling directly from this Isaiah 54 chapter's metaphors.


Isaiah 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto Me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

That above again is about both His elect and about Jerusalem, the place where He chose to put His name there forever. And notice per Ezekiel 16, God used both the spiritual ideas of His having married Jerusalem, and also called her a harlot when she fell into idol worship.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of My peace be removed, saith the LORD That hath mercy on thee.

When is that removing of the mountains and the hills supposed to happen brethren? If someone tells you that was already history, then it means they are on the Jew's doctrines, because the unbelieving Jews don't read The New Testament, like Christ's Book of Revelation that reveals that destruction event is for the last day of this world, which is also when God will redeem His faithful and the earth (Revelation 6:14; Revelation 16:20).


Isaiah 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
KJV

That above is specific to the New Jerusalem, and is linked to the Revelation 21 description for after Christ's future return. That is to come down... out of Heaven from God, and will replace what is today's Jerusalem.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Nice try, but that false Preterist interpretation won't work.

I'm not a Preterist. I'll read the rest of your post later maybe, but stop labelling people when you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, the Prophets were not self-aggrandizing, though they did suffer the same "pride" issues we do. We have to bury the "pride" thing. If you don't agree, then you'll have to be vindicated or humiliated by your own self-declared standard. I play it safe, personally.

To be honest, my calling has been of God for over 35 years, so I don't take peoples advice who try to get me to think that I don't hear the Holy Spirit, tbh, I don't even get where that kind of thinking comes from brother. The truth is, we have many false prophet types in the world today, only 5 of the 10 brides will be raptured, I hear God, and I speak, I also know when others don't hear God but I let them speak without much pushback, Jesus said to wipe the dust off of your feet, Jesus didn't say if they wouldn't hear you force them to hear you. Jesus said my sheep will hear my voice, Jesus also said man will say Lord Lord and he will eventually say depart from me for I never knew you, thus there are many that hear God's voice and speak and many who are not hearing his voice and thus are being whispered unto by the liar who never sleeps, Satan. He whispered to Peter, and Jesus had to say get thee behind me Satan. Small wonders he's always trying to confuse the church with lies. Look at the Church brother, should we have one interpretion from God or many?

No, you didn't prove that Dan 8 is the endtimes--not by any percentage. Your claiming to know something, and then verifying that by another claim, that you're inspired by the Holy Spirit whereas others are not, will make points with nobody. It is a claim upon a claim.

Of course I didn't to you, because you already have your mind made up on the facts of Daniel chapter 8, but I proved it via the scriptures, that is all I need to do. I don't worry about what other men think, I will leave that to be between you and God. He will judge us all, but of course anyone who thinks that Daniel 8 is about Antiochus and has invested years in that is not going to see it as end times unless they are willing to change their opinion, most people, sadly, learn prophecy from other men, because Revelation, Daniel etc. was way over our heads as young Christians we read books, listened to certain type preachers etc. etc. and thus we took on other men's traditions without even realizing it, Satan is super sneaky, then we get LOCKED INTO POSITIONS, and our pride refuses to allow us to budge, then Satan laughs at us when God can't correct us. Its like you or I being taught 2 + 2 = 5 for 15 -20 years, when we hear it is actually 4, we are going to be like GET OUT of here !! That is God's problem there, you know how I know, He answered my prayer one night and told me as much in a sort of rebuke.

As a man, called unto Prophecy specifically (in a Vision in 1986 a loud booming voice from above simply said "The Man of Sin is Here" then in another vision, to affirm the first vision I was in a huge auditorium where maybe 10 people were listening to Jimmy Swaggart preach, within 2 weeks he had fallen from grace) I prayed one night about 5 or 6 years ago this prayer, "Lord, why is the church always in confusion? Why is it we have 100's of interpretations of what/who Babylon is, who the 7 Headed Beast is, who the Harlot is, who the 144,000 is etc. etc. but there is only one truth?

And I got this from the Holy Spirit "Ron, you guys already know it all" and I understood instantly. Notice how the Lord is always to the point? So, what did that mean? It meant we as men were learning these prophetic utterings from other men, just like the Pharisees were told by Jesus that the reason you can't see who I am is because of your "Men's Traditions" !! So, because we all learned these prophetic things from other men, Satan has us not only confused as a church on prophecy, but bound up to many of these untruths.

Right then I understood what I had to do, it was so simple, anytime I came upon anything in the bible, especially on prophecy, that was contradictory or confusing I was to stop, and simple ask the Lord, show me your truths Lord, just like I had done when I first got saved with the Gospels, where Jesus/Holy Spirit never failed me. So, I started doing just that, and the answers always have cone to me in the last 5 or so years. I wrote a blog that took a long time on Babylon saying that the Babylon of Rev. 17 was actually Rome, the Lord was like "You are wrong Ron, Babylon is not Rome, LOOK at what John actually SAW".

So, I went back to reading, and saw the Vision that verse 18 points unto (what John SAWEWST) was only four verses long (verses 3-6), and thus what John actually saw, was a Harlot (All False Religion of all time) who was indeed co-mingled with Babylon the Great (All False Governance under Satan). It was never Rome, Babylon represents this whole wicked world under the liar Satan. Rev. 16:19 says so, it says God gave Great Babylon His wrath of the wine-press, so who did Jesus defeat at the 7th vial? Well, the 6th Vial tells us, all the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD !!

The reason the Church has 100s of different interpretations is because its members are hearing Satan's lying voice, thus he divides us into senseless arguments for no reason. If you stop and think, you know what you basically said to me earlier? We can't ever know if its the truth from God or not. The truth is Satan has most people confused on prophecy because, they do just what I did for almost 30 years, not realizing that all I ever had to do was ask God, Lord, show me your truths, instead I read books from other men for 30 years and placed ROADBLOCKS in front of God (2 + 2 = 5) where I kept repeating Satan's lie, 2 + 2 = 5. And in Prophecy small detours become HUGE OFF ROAD ventures. I know people who think the Seals are already broken because Jesus in Rev. 5 was not seen in Heaven, I joke not, when I point out that he was also not seen on the earth nor under the earth, I ask, was Jesus a NOWHERE MAN? And they can't answer, but refuse to shift their understandings, they are LOCKED IN, the Seals have all been opened except for the 6th Seal of God's Wrath, the 5th Seal Martyrs are the Church Age Martyrs according to them. Thus they get off tracked by Satan via ONE VERSE !! And once they go down that road a 1000 mules can't bring them back, its pride I guess, like you stated, but we can't point unto everyone and say, well, its pride, no some indeed do hear God's voice, and some don't that has always been the case, the pride is not being able to hear God's voice because of ones own love affair with his own thoughts. Satan had that problem, I will be like unto the most High God !!

I always recognized the holy spirits voice, all that time, I could hear the lies from Satan at all times, any time some one spoke these preterist views or said the Beast was the RCC or even Islamic, I could see those were just not truthful, but I couldn't see the things I had learned from other men were in many cases just not factual. So, if a preacher was great and 90 percent of what he said was truth on prophecy, I still got 10 percent bad info. Take the 144,000, they are said to be SUPER PREACERS, but the bible never once says that, in fact it says they need PROTECTION by God. So, that is just a myth, which stops us from understanding that the 144,000 just like the 10 virgins is a CODE word/number. So, we don't have a hard time understanding that 10 represents the whole of Christendom, and that the female virgins are the whole church both male and female, all because we know the number 10 represents completion. But when God gives another CODED HINT in the book of Revelation, we miss it, 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repents, and they are not all male Virgins, just like the 10 Brides are not all Female Virgins !! Anytime God TIMES a number he's adding emphasis, like He has saved Himself 7000 well is it 7000 or 144,000 ? Well its both, because 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = God shouting COMPLETION just like 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 does. Remember New Jerusalem is 144,000 cubits also? The 10 Commandments represents all Gods Laws. The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits shows us God sees all and is omnipotent, the number 7 means completion also, thus 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 means ALL Israel. In Rev. 2:10 the Church of Smyrna was told they would have tribulation 10 days, that means for the complete Church Age. The hosts of Angels are 10,000 x 10,000 or 200 million right ? No, that just means ALL the Hosts of Heaven will be in attendance. God isn't going to try to tell us there will be 1,789, 923, 761, 345, 981 Angels in attendance, He just uses a number that means ALL of Heaven will be there,

Point being, the reason the 144,000 are not seen as the Jews who repented fleeing Judea unto the mountains is we have named them Super Preachers, which is a falsehood. When we get it right, we can then maybe see that the Trumpet Judgments in Rev 8 are the first judgments and the Jews are fleeing at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260 Anti-Christ comes to power. The church can't see that because they see these 144,000 as Super Preachers, so Satan has done well via his deception in that case. He knows if he can get a falsehood on one mountain so to speak, he can then confuse elsewhere.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

It's nice to know you don't have a self-esteem problem. But you may have a problem with grandiosity. I'd love to get along with you and compare notes, but you're making it difficult. Comparing yourself to the Prophets may be okay, but you then have to match your words with your character.

1.) That is not what I stated as per comparing myself to the prophets, it was a juxtaposition. (PS instead of on the bottom, I will do it here, if you read this and still think Daniel 8 is about Antiochus, I don't think you will, but if you do we will just agree to disagree)

2.) God is no respecter of persons. A lot of people on this earth today has done great things for the kingdom of God but will never be called to do what the few Prophets did because they were thus saith the Lord men. They were basically called to give God's Holy Writ unto mankind, that is finished, but a lot of men are just as close to God now days, they just have different caling's. Our job now is to reach the masses, via our words, our holy spirit utterings, not to write down thus saith the Lord. But the Holy Spirit told the Prophets what to write down, and tells us things today, not to write down per se, but to preach and teach. God is NO RESPECTOR of persons, God sees you brother just as important as He saw Moses, that's because God loves us all and is a Just God in all things. I hope you will like me and all, but I will not change to please men, in truth I am sure your mission is to please God also, not men.

If you are a reasonable person, and I assume you are, then to prove Dan 8 is endtimes you would have to do more than find a word that says "end," or "time of the end." Words mean what they mean *in context.*

Of course I did, no use rehashing it in full, (EDITED, I always do this, I rehased it anyway Oh well) but like I stated, Antiochus neve conquered Egypt but ONCE and we see that in Dan. 11:23-28, not in Dan. 11:36-45

Dan. 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Antiochus Epiphanes wanted to conquer Egypt in a bad way. He took a “small army” down to Egypt feigning to be their protector of Ptolemy VI who was his nephew. He was of course trying to deceive and outwit them, gaining valuable intelligence whereas he could eventually conquer them. This was seemingly his master-plan.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers’ fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Antiochus Epiphanes gained Egypt’s trust and loyalty via spreading his bounty from his wars amongst the public. He visited Egyptian strongholds to get a better understanding on how to conquer them, he was quite cunning.

25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him. 26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

This is the Sixth Syrian War (the last of the lot). This was Antiochus Epiphanes against Ptolemy VI. Antiochus Epiphanes attacked Egypt and prevailed over them and many of the Egyptians fought by his side and betrayed Ptolemy VI. He was a corrupter of people no doubt, he knew how to divide and conquer.

27 And both of these kings’ hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Watching Antiochus Epiphanes operate must have been enthralling back in the day. He pretended to support Ptolemy VI his blood kin, and he pretended to have his best interest in mind, but the truth is he was pitting him against his own brother Ptolemy VII the whole time. Ptolemy VII was of course made king of Egypt by the Alexandrians who did not trust Ptolemy VI any longer.
---------------------------------------------------------

After verses 23-27 (ABOVE), Antiochus NEVER Conquered Egypt again, he was ordered by three Roman Senators to NEVER go to war against Egypt again, this is a historical fact, that happened in verse 29

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Antiochus Epiphanes soon returned to Egypt with the intention of conquering Alexanderia. The Egyptians however sent a message to Rome asking for help. Three Roman senators were sent by ship to inform Antiochus Epiphanes that he was not to invade Egypt and to demand that he retreat immediately. This of course made him angry and he seems to have taken it out on the Jewish believers. He killed them but allowed the Hellenistic Jews to live as long as they forsook the Holy Covenant !! He was indeed a vile man, seemingly a forerunner to the coming Anti-Christ/Beast in some of his mannerisms.
--------------------------------------------------------------

All of the above happened before he went to Jerusalem and killed 60,000 people, as we see in Daniel 11:31-33

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the temple of God, stopped the daily sacrifices and even built a pagan alter unto Zeus and sacrificed pigs on it. This was an Abomination unto God, but its not the Abomination that Jesus and Daniel is speaking about of course. This desecrated the temple while it was there.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

This of course created a schism so to speak amongst the Jewish peoples, which is what Antiochus was good at, divide and conquer tactics. So many Jews forsook their God and many refused to do so and paid the price with their lives. This of course is a likeness unto the coming end time events in many ways.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets look at verses 34 and 35 which was about the Maccabean Revolt, where we can get locked in on a Timeline on these events.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

This is referring to the Maccabean Revolt. It seems we need to look at this prophecy here in segments. A historical segment that has already been fulfilled (Dan. 11:1-35) and an eschatological segment where the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Of course when Daniel received this prophetic uttering none of it had basically come to pass, now all of it has come to pass except for Dan. 11:36-45 and Dan. 12:1-12. So, it seems after verse 35 we can say that we fast forward so to speak into eschatology.
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Now we can tie this together with factual dates of the Maccabean Revolt and Antiochus' death.

Maccabean Revolt

The main phase of the revolt lasted from 167–160 BCE and ended with the Seleucids in control of the country, but conflict between the Maccabees, Hellenized Jews, and the Seleucids continued until 134 BCE, with the Maccabees attaining independence by the end.

Antiochus Epiphanes

Antiochus IV Epiphanes Ancient Greek: Antíochos ho Epiphanḗs, "God Manifest"; c. 215 BC – November/December 164 BC) was a Greek Hellenistic king of the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC.

So, Antiochus died in 164 in the middle of the Maccabean Revolt. So, how is Daniel 11:36-45 about Antiochus Epiphanes ? He could not ever conquer Egypt again, Rome forbade him from doing that, so in his anger he turns, goes after Israel and her religious peoples and kills 60,000 or so people, starting the Maccabean Revolt, he then died in 164 B.C. during that Revolt, but he somehow is conquering Egypt again in Dan. 11:36-45. It is not possible brother, I showed it to you and you refused to accept it, I don't just say things, I do the grunt work. The whole reason I did an Exegesis on Daniel 11 was I got tired of not being able to explain it to people, LOL. I am weird like that, or I am wired like that, same meaning !!

CONTINUED............

 

[Ronald D Milam]

CONTINUED...........

You've proven nothing if you can't prove the words have a context that indicates the end of the age, and I just don't see that anywhere. Until you can show otherwise, "at the time of the end" will mean the end of a particular struggle, and "when these things are completed" will mean things will find an eventual resolution.

After the above I feel this is overkill, the point has been proved, but I want to reshow you things you never really tried to rebut, just so others understand I did indeed prove Dan. 8 was end times.

The below matches Daniel 11 where the 36-45 verses show an End Time Anti-Christ. Then I am going to show in scriptures how each of these verses are end times via other scriptures.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, (1)when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of (2)fierce countenance, and (3)understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his (4)power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and (5)shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and (6)he shall magnify himself in his heart, and (7)by peace shall destroy many: he (8)shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he (9)shall be broken without hand.

1.) What do you think this can possibly mean brother? Well, in Genesis Gd could not give the land of Canaan unto Abraham until the Canaanites sins were come full, so they went to Egypt for 400 years and by the time they came to Israel they were sacrificing their own children and going with animals (Beastiality). AND

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2.) The FIERCE COUNTENANCE describes his demeanor, his look, countenance is paniym in Hebrew which means FACE, and fierce means this below.

#5794 עַז `az {az}

from H5810; TWOT - 1596a; adj
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) strong, mighty, fierce
—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)

From H5810; strong, vehement, harsh:—fierce, + greedy, mighty, power, roughly, strong.
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

So, we are supposed to think this means Antiochus, who cowered before three Roman Senators, ducked tail and ran off to Israel to kill defenseless men, women and children?

3.) He understands Dark Sentences or chiydah in Hebrew means he understands Satan's riddles. Antiochus couldn't even cinquer Rome, if he understand how to operate in the Dark Underworld he could have crushed Rome easily. He will know ALL THINGS Satan knows, all riddles and enigmas are easy fir him to solve.

#2420 חִידָה chiydah {khee-daw'}

from H2330; TWOT - 616a; n f
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) riddle, difficult question, parable, enigmatic saying or question,
perplexing saying or question
1a) riddle (dark obscure utterance)
1b) riddle, enigma (to be guessed)
1c) perplexing questions (difficult)
1d) double dealing (with 'havin')

4.) His power shall be MIGHTY but not by his own power (By Satan the Dragon)

Rev. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5.) He destroys Israel as Rev. 12, Rev. 13 and Daniel 12 all say.

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;(1260 days) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

6.) He will indeed maginfy himself in his own heart.


Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Antiochus sacrificed a pig unto Zeus, this guy is an Atheist who will demand to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD

7.) He will destroy MANY by Peace.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Rev. 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

He makes PEACE AGREEMENTS, then takes the peace away !! Thus he destroys MANY by Peace.

8.) The Prince of princes is Jesus Christ, we all know that, especially when he wins WITHOUT HANDS !!

9.) Without hands is clearly seen in Daniel chapter 2.

Dan. 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone(Jesus) was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Jesus SPEAKS VICTORY via the Sword of his mouth in Rev. 19 also. So, you stated I did not prove it, but I gave you all the points and verses, like WITHOUT HANDS, you just would not consider them it seems. Daniel 8 is the End Time Anti-Christ.

God Bless, got 12 hours sleep, .

Look I am pointed and to the point, but never disrespectful to others, its not my style, so don't take it personal if I bring forth my 35 years of Gods teachings with me. Anyone who can verify anything with me via the scriptures, I will listen.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

That statement is predicated on the assumption that Antiochus and Jason are types of Anti-Christ and the False Prophet to the degree they represent particular races. And I only have your word on that--not the Bible's word.

The bible tells us about Antiochus in Dan. 11:21-34, then we get the Anti-Christ in verses 36-45. The bible doesn't openly mention the False Prophet for a reason, if Daniel had of been told about a coming False Prophet, then for the next 500 or so years until Jesus came and died, and up util 70 AD, the Jewish Peoples would have killed every other Jewish High Priest thinking he was THE ONE to come, just like King Herod tried to kill baby Jesus. But when one understands the 1290, he understands that is about the false Prophet John spoke of freely after 70 AD, the Anti-Christ only shows up 30 days later at the 1260 event. Each number is that many days before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS Daniel had been shown in Dan. 11:36-45.

The 1335 comes first (took me a while to figure that out, like 35 years, I wonder if anyone has a guess at who it is, so I always leave it blank to start with) the 1290 is the False Prophet, and the Anti-Christ who conquers at the 1260 comes last.

I know they are types because I understand the ending and can see they are types. I can also see that Antiochus is given unto us in verses 21-34 just before we are given the coming Anti-Christ in verses 36-45. He also defiled the temple of God just like the Anti-Christ will, he also murdered many Jews just like the coming Anti-Christ will. He also named a High Priest that tried to Hellenize the Jews (THINK to change tines and laws). The word Gymnasium comes from a Greek word, the men all met and played games in the buff, it was basically a homosexual hangout. Jason wanted to mandate the Greek culture on the Jews, he told Antiochus to come in and sacrifice the pig unto Zeus, thus the backlash of the Maccabean Revolt, which is like unto Jesus/God destroying the wicked at Armageddon. We will see 1/3 of the Jews repent (Zechariah 13:8-9) and they do so just before the 1260 Day of the Lord, we know that because one verse later we see the Day of the Lord in Zechariah 14:1.So, 3-5 million Jews repent and flee unto the mountains, they are the Woman in Rev. 12 and the 144,000 seen in Rev. 7. Its in the bible, dig it out brother.

I believe Dan 9.24-27 has already been fulfilled. The 70 Weeks have already been fulfilled. The 70th Week was fulfilled when Christ came to confirm the covenant, thus fulfilling the 70 Weeks prophecy. It was the covenant of Law that was confirmed, completing that covenant of Law in the New Covenant. At least, that's how I see it. A prophecy of 70 Weeks that began in 457 BC can hardly still have a future fulfillment!

I have a blog on this showing how all SIX GOALS are yet to be fulfilled, and I am very thorough and detailed with all of my blogs. Israel MUST REPENT, and even though Jesus died for all of our sins, mine, yours and our friends, I am sure you like me have many friends who have never repented, thus they are yet in their sins, likewise Israel as a Nation is yet in their sins, the bible tells us that Israel will be BLINDED until the time of the Gentiles has come in full (Church Age) thus the Rapture happens, and then God deals with Israel during the 70th week. Jesus dying on the cross only fulfilled that which Israel already had access unto by Faith, how do you think Abraham was saved? By FAITH in the Promise for the coming promised Messiah (Jesus) whose name was in Hebrew Yeshua or Salvation, so every time the Old Testament uses the word SALVATION (especially with the Hebrew suffix meaning "my," thy," or "his"), with very few exceptions (when the word is impersonal), it is the very same word, YESHUA (Jesus), used in Matthew 1:21. Let us remember that the angel who spoke to Mary and the angel who spoke to Joseph in his dream did not speak in English, Latin, or Greek, but in Hebrew; and neither were Mary or Joseph slow to grasp the meaning and significance of the NAME of this divine Son and its relation to His character and His work of salvation. For in the Old Testament all great characters were given names with a specific and significant meaning. So, Yeshua meant Salvation even unto Abraham and Moses. Our Faith in God is our salvation via Jesus Christ, both before the cross and after the cross, Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. So, to anyone that says Jesus is not in the Old Testament, I can show you places he is in the Old Testament under Yeshua (Salvation......at another time).

That which is confirmed by the prince to come (Anti-Christ called he which points back to verse 26 the prince to come) and of course it has a small letter not a capitol, if it was Jesus it would have been capitalized just like in Dan. 8:25 where he is called the Prince of princes. Now see the difference in the verses I post below:

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people(Romans or Europeans) of the prince(Anti-Christ that shows up in 2000 some odd years) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Why would Jesus destroy the city and the Sanctuary? Then verse 27 POINTS BACK to that prince by saying he

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Again, Messiah the Prince is capitalized, the prince and he is not, both ae the coming Anti-Christ.

The Jews, as a People, will not, I believe, repent until Christ returns. The idea that they repent is taken from the 144,000 in Rev 7 and 14, which seem to refer to Jews that have *already* converted to Christ.

I simply use Scriptures brother.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

THEN, the very next verse is the Day of the Lord (1260, Middle of the Week event)

Zechariah 14:Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The above is Israel getting conquered by the Anti-Christ (at the 1260) just after the Jews repent at the 1290 which happens 30 days before the 1260 event. Then in verses 3 and 4 Jesus at Armageddon shows up and wipes them out !! We see Israel flee in Rev. 12, the only ones who flee have repented and thus hear Jesus' words, Jews do not listen to Jesus or read Matt. 24 as we speak, for the most part. HINT, the 1335 is the soon to come Two-witnesses showing up (Blessing)

The OT Bible focuses primarily on the Jews because Israel was made to be the first and model nations for NT Christian nations. Once we enter into NT Scripture, there is a change from "just Israel" to "Israel and the many Christian nations."

The MANY are the Nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region he conquers also.

I believe Antichrist will be a European leader. The arch-type of Antichrist comes from non-Jews like Antiochus 4, the Egyptian Pharaoh, Hitler, etc. He heads the Roman Confederation, as I see it.

He will be European, just not a Religious Leader, he will be the President of the E.U.