Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

[Randy Kluth]

According Scriptures, where was/is the root of the fig tree?

Genesis 3:v.7 - The eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons / girdles.

God did not accept the model that Adam and Eve created to hide or cover their nakedness.

I don't know where you get this? A tree is established in a plot of ground. That's likely Israel after she was established as a nation in the land of Israel. The "roots," then, would be Abrahamic faith, or the faith of the Patriarchs.

Gentile converts to Christianity were branches added to the tree as long as Israel continued as a nation, because there was no other tree. But later, Gentile Christianity developed their own "trees," when entire nations converted to the faith.

The "roots" still belonged, perhaps to Abraham, but the Christian nations have appropriated Abraham's roots for their own "trees."

 

[Curtis]

The Parable of the Fig Tree

6 [Jesus] also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”

Will the city of Jerusalem bear spiritual fruit, and many Jews come to Christ in the end-times? Many say no, and that God is done with the nation of Isreal; that the church is now spiritual "Isreal" and all Bible prophecy relates to Christians alone. They even teach that the above parable proves God was finished with Israel after A.D. 70.

But was He? This will take a little bit to unpack, but first let's list the specifics of this parable. The symbolism was as follows:

- The man who planted the tree was God
- His vineyard was Isreal, and the fig tree was specifically the city of Jerusalem.
- Jesus was the keeper of the vineyard.
- The fruit God was seeking from His fig tree was the fruit of righteousness, which they were not giving Him, so the Father had determined to "cut it down," and that judgment would come upon Israel, for she would be handed over to the nations.
- But Jesus was depicted here as interceding on behalf of Jerusalem, asking the Father to essentially, "Give it one more season before you bring judgment upon them. I will pour out the Holy Spirit upon them as a witness to Me, and perhaps the city will come under repentance, and finally turn to producing the fruit of righteousness. If they still do not after that, cut it down."

Did the city of Jerusalem produce the fruit God desired in the 1st century? Yes and no. After the Spirit of God was poured out upon the disciples in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, Acts says:

40 And with many other words [Peter] testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them... 46 and [believers] ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:40-47)

What becomes very interesting, however, is this: Jesus uses a fig tree parable again later in His ministry as recorded in both Matthew 24 and Luke 21, and in this teaching He prophesied that in the time just before His return, the fig tree (Jerusalem) would start to have tender branches and then bud, which are the early stages of bearing fruit.

Luke 21 renders it like this:

29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Matthew 24 has it this way:

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth shoots, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Now, this symbolism strongly suggests that in the time just before Christ's return to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth, the fig tree, which was Jerusalem in the previous parable, will again bud and begin bearing fruit. This also suggests the Spirit will once again be poured put upon Israel as well.

Lest anyone doubt that this passage was talking about the nation of Isreal and Jerusalem specifically here, take a look again at the context in which these passages are found. I will post them out in full in the next post.

God bless, and thanks for reading.

I do believe it budded again in 1948. Or 1967.

 

[Curtis]

According Scriptures, where was/is the root of the fig tree?

Genesis 3:v.7 - The eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons / girdles.

God did not accept the model that Adam and Eve created to hide or cover their nakedness.

Because he killed an animal and used the skin to cover Adam and Eve, which is a foreshadow of sacrifice of Jesus Christ to cover our sins.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Roman Kingdom was converted under Theodosius to a Christian Kingdom/Empire.

Ok. I see what you are driving at, but there are holes in it. For one, the Roman Empire didn't last that much longer after it became Christianized. For another, the version of Christianity they endorsed was beginning to be highly compromised by 4th century.

But it makes for interesting discussion anyway. If I had more time I'd discuss your ideas with you more.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

OK, but what kind of fruit will the fig tree produce? Once a Jewish Man, surreptitiously like a LAMB of two horns, in fact a FALSE LAMB, will manifest himself in Israel as a messiah, a false messiah, of course, actually he is/will be an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and SPIRITIST messiah?

Hi, Oseas. This discussion would branch off into who we think the Antichrist will be. I've never subscribed to the theory that he will be Jewish.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I do believe it budded again in 1948. Or 1967.

Well, yes and no. It clearly became a nation again, yes, so the analogy could be used in that regard. But the fruit Jesus was looking for was spiritual. Israel was already a nation when He told this parable, which means He was looking for something more than what they were giving Him at that time.

 

[Davy]

Then why lead off with the statement, "My position is what the word of God shows"? I have seen numerous people make this claim, including several Jehovahs Witnesses and Unitarians we have on this forum. The insinuation is the same coming from them; that they hold to what the word of God "actually shows," whereas I and others here don't.

It's irritating.

How is the conversation going to go if in turn I respond to your post with "I hold to what the word of God actually shows," and then you reply, "No, I hold to what the word of God actually shows," and then I answer back with, "No, I hold to what the word of God actually shows," and then you reply, "No, I hold to what the word of God actually shows."

See how edifying such a conversation is?

How about if we start the conversation assuming that we both believe we hold to what the word of God actually shows, and not make insinuations that the other one obviously doesn't?

It appears to me you are simply irritated because I won't give you some political seminary style answer, instead of giving you clear Biblical examples. Your response also reveals to me that you may fear how your interpretation of those Scriptures I gave you may appear to others here, so you would rather not use God's Word to support your own position. However, by God's written Word is HOW... we support our position. Thus your response is strange.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It appears to me you are simply irritated because I won't give you some political seminary style answer, instead of giving you clear Biblical examples. Your response also reveals to me that you may fear how your interpretation of those Scriptures I gave you may appear to others here, so you would rather not use God's Word to support your own position. However, by God's written Word is HOW... we support our position. Thus your response is strange.

No Davy, you assume too much. I haven't even read your scriptures yet, and I'm not really all that irritated. I'm simply addressing something with you that I've seen others do, and it just kinda chaps me a little.

I suppose it's dealt with as much as possible at this point, though, so let me take a look.

Luke 23:27-31
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
KJV

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Zech 12:9-12
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
KJV

Ok, now before I comment, how are you applying these passages to the OP specifically?

 

[Keraz]

I don't know where you get this? A tree is established in a plot of ground. That's likely Israel after she was established as a nation in the land of Israel. The "roots," then, would be Abrahamic faith, or the faith of the Patriarchs.

Gentile converts to Christianity were branches added to the tree as long as Israel continued as a nation, because there was no other tree. But later, Gentile Christianity developed their own "trees," when entire nations converted to the faith.

The "roots" still belonged, perhaps to Abraham, but the Christian nations have appropriated Abraham's roots for their own "trees."

This assumption conflicts with what the Bible tells us.
Jesus is the tree trunk, sprung from the Abrahamic line.

The Christian peoples are grafted onto the 'Tree' of Jesus.
You are trying to make allegories into realities, or are just confused.
Your belief of a future conversion of Israel as a nation, will not happen and is not necessary, as Jesus is the true Israel.

 

[Davy]

No Davy, you assume too much. I haven't even read your scriptures yet, and I'm not really all that irritated. I'm simply addressing something with you that I've seen others do, and it just kinda chaps me a little.

What I did was point you to the relevant Scriptures. So I in no way see that act as threatening, and therefore I cannot accept your reason for that "chaps me a little".

I suppose it's dealt with as much as possible at this point, though, so let me take a look.

Ok, now before I comment, how are you applying these passages to the OP specifically?

That strategy won't work either, those Scriptures speak for themselves, so any comment by me you could easily just say, "that's your opinion." What are those Scriptures I provided saying to you?

 

[Hidden In Him]

That strategy won't work either

Strategy?

those Scriptures speak for themselves

No, they don't.

so any comment by me you could easily just say, "that's your opinion."

No, I don't do that. That's sort of a petty thing that some people do to avoid discussing the passages of scripture themselves, but I actually like discussing the scripture. That's the only thing that ends up having any value in these types of discussions.

But I'm not going to beat it out of you. I've always got other stuff going on anyway.

God bless,
- H

 

[Davy]

Strategy?


No, they don't.


No, I don't do that. That's sort of a petty thing that some people do to avoid discussing the passages of scripture themselves, but I actually like discussing the scripture. That's the only thing that ends up having any value in these types of discussions.

But I'm not going to beat it out of you. I've always got other stuff going on anyway.

God bless,
- H

Nor do I have time for someone who refuses to address relevant Bible Scripture to the topic at hand.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This assumption conflicts with what the Bible tells us.
Jesus is the tree trunk, sprung from the Abrahamic line.

The Christian peoples are grafted onto the 'Tree' of Jesus.
You are trying to make allegories into realities, or are just confused.
Your belief of a future conversion of Israel as a nation, will not happen and is not necessary, as Jesus is the true Israel.

I'm not opposed to that idea. The promises were made to both Abraham and his "seed," who is Christ. And so, we obtain "family rights" with Abraham by virtue of our connection to Christ. How to apply symbols is sometimes difficult, which is why I may not have worked out everything in my mind yet. It's a good question, though.

There may be, however, a difference between our being "branches off the vine" (John 15) and being "branches grafted onto the tree" (Rom 11). A "vine" and a "tree" are different things. A tree fastens onto a single plot of ground, whereas a vine may move about, which is why I think the fig tree refers to the nation of Israel. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ok. I see what you are driving at, but there are holes in it. For one, the Roman Empire didn't last that much longer after it became Christianized. For another, the version of Christianity they endorsed was beginning to be highly compromised by 4th century.

But it makes for interesting discussion anyway. If I had more time I'd discuss your ideas with you more.

Thanks, no need to discuss it--only if you're interested. To just quickly answer your above objective, I see the Roman Empire as the "4th Kingdom" in Dan 7, and equate it with European Civilization in the NT era. In other words, it didn't stop with the fall of Rome in 476 AD.

Also, with respect to the corruptions of "Christian" Rome, I don't expect that God's representation of His Kingdom on earth is ever going to be perfect in the present age. Clearly. Roman Christianity was compromised, and European Civilization has gradually deteriorated from its Christian roots.

But that was also the state of Israel when God established the Davidic Kingdom, which I call a "theocracy," for lack of a better word. It is simply a divinely-established State, or government, in a nation. I see little difference between Israel's ancient Davidic Kingdom and Christian kingdoms in the NT era--they are all flawed and subject to awful corruption. I agree!

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ, it should be easy to understand by now that the premise by the OP isn't going to stay with relevant Scripture that disproves his theory. This is why I presented the Scripture evidences in my post#42 that reveal the fallacy of his theory about a major conversion of the unbelieving Jews and the nation of Israel at the end being blessed just prior to the day of Christ's coming.

The Luke 23 Scripture I showed, with Jesus carrying His cross to be crucified, and some of the Jewish women on the side crying for Him, Jesus turns to them and gives them a parable from the Book of Isaiah which is about the idea of spiritual virgins. Jesus tells the "Daughters of Jerusalem" there to not weep for Him, but weep for themselves and for their children (i.e., later generations). And it will be because of their deceptions at the very end of this world, because He begins quoting the Isaiah 54 prophecy about remaining a spiritual virgin at the end...

Luke 23:28-29
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
KJV

That quote originates from here...

Isa 54:1
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
KJV

Apostle Paul used this idea in 2 Corinthians 11 also, with wanting us to remain faithful so as to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin". Lord Jesus also used this spiritual virgin metaphor in Matthew 25 about His parable of the ten virgins. So this analogy those in Christ should well know about, and it is simply this:

God likened His faithful as spiritual brides, virgins, waiting on His coming, instead of joining to another in His place. That also means... spiritually... their womb (symbolic) remaining barren, like a virgin bride who is still virginal pure. That means you are faithful as a spiritual bride waiting on Jesus to come, your spiritual womb is still barren, a good thing for a bride. This is why the barren woman in the Isaiah parable is told to "Sing", meaning for joy, for having stayed faithful. And the idea that she will have more children than the married wife, means when Jesus comes, her symbolic spiritual womb will be fruitful because she then will be married to the rightful Husband (God, symbolically married; Apostle Paul used that "Husband" idea in 2 Corinthians 11 from Isaiah 54:5 also).

But... if when Jesus comes, and finds you spiritually 'travailing with child' (pregnant with labor pains), it means you did NOT stay faithful waiting for Him, but instead married another in His place (i.e., the coming false-Messiah at the end prior to Christ's return). This is basically God's spiritual harlot analogy from the Old Testament prophets (see Ezekiel 16, as this is applied to Jerusalem fallen in idol worship too).

How then is Jesus applying this chaste virgin parable to the "Daughters of Jerusalem" for the end of this world?

Jesus is using it as a warning about the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem for the end, because He is showing when He does return, 'they', the unbelieving Jews, will be blessing Christ's faithful who did remain barren and without symbolic child by falling away to marry another. That is WHY... those deceived Jews will then wish for the mountains to "fall upon us", and for the hills to, "cover us":

Luke 23:29-30
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

WHY will the deceived Jews at Christ's coming be wishing that upon themselves? Because they did not... remain spiritually barren waiting on Jesus to come. This means they will, in majority, fall away to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ that comes to Jerusalem first. So does that show the Jews in the nation of Israel being blessed at the very end? NO! It means they will fall away to false worship during the coming great tribulation.

 

[Davy]

With the Romans 11:25-32 Scripture example, Apostle Paul showed that the majority of his brethren, the orthodox Jews, will remain in spiritual blindness that God placed upon them until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. That means until Christ's return. So is that what Lord Jesus showed also in that Luke 23 example of what He said to the Daughters of Jerusalem? Yes!

The Zechariah 12:9-12 Scripture example I posted is also aligned with how the majority of the Jews in Israel will be deceived at the very end, and will be in shame when Jesus does return and they see Him, and will then mourn for Him like an only son. That also points to the orthodox Jews remaining deceived, until the day of Jesus' future return.

IMPORTANT:
One of the things the orthodox unbelieving Jews have been attempting to do today, is to proclaim how God is blessing them in the state of Israel today, and that it is showing He has returned the Kingdom back to them, and how they proclaim the Old Testament prophecies of the nations recognizing it, and coming to Jerusalem to worship, once they have rebuilt the Jewish temple. This is why in many Churches today, ideas of the victory of the Jews in Israel is being pushed for God having established Israel again. The Jews want us Christians to also be a part of that, and help them to establish their proposed temple and old covenant worship traditions too!

Here's some of the Old Testament type Scripture the ultra-orthodox Jews are proclaiming today...

Isa 2:2-3
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
KJV

Thing is though, that above Scripture will not happen until AFTER Jesus has returned in our near future. Yet those Jews are trying to apply that for our times, prior to Christ's return. And one of the proofs they're trying to use is with how today's Israel shows God's blessings. They are so convinced of this too, that they are stronger than ever about wanting to build another temple so they can start up the old covenant worship again, because they don't see Messiah as having come yet. SO BEWARE BRETHREN IN CHRIST.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Luke 23:28-29
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
KJV

That quote originates from here...

Isa 54:1
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
KJV

Apostle Paul used this idea in 2 Corinthians 11 also, with wanting us to remain faithful so as to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin". Lord Jesus also used this spiritual virgin metaphor in Matthew 25 about His parable of the ten virgins. So this analogy those in Christ should well know about, and it is simply this:

God likened His faithful as spiritual brides, virgins, waiting on His coming, instead of joining to another in His place. That also means... spiritually... their womb (symbolic) remaining barren, like a virgin bride who is still virginal pure. That means you are faithful as a spiritual bride waiting on Jesus to come, your spiritual womb is still barren, a good thing for a bride. This is why the barren woman in the Isaiah parable is told to "Sing", meaning for joy, for having stayed faithful. And the idea that she will have more children than the married wife, means when Jesus comes, her symbolic spiritual womb will be fruitful because she then will be married to the rightful Husband (God, symbolically married; Apostle Paul used that "Husband" idea in 2 Corinthians 11 from Isaiah 54:5 also).

But... if when Jesus comes, and finds you spiritually 'travailing with child' (pregnant with labor pains), it means you did NOT stay faithful waiting for Him, but instead married another in His place (i.e., the coming false-Messiah at the end prior to Christ's return). This is basically God's spiritual harlot analogy from the Old Testament prophets (see Ezekiel 16, as this is applied to Jerusalem fallen in idol worship too).

How then is Jesus applying this chaste virgin parable to the "Daughters of Jerusalem" for the end of this world?

Jesus is using it as a warning about the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem for the end, because He is showing when He does return, 'they', the unbelieving Jews, will be blessing Christ's faithful who did remain barren and without symbolic child by falling away to marry another. That is WHY... those deceived Jews will then wish for the mountains to "fall upon us", and for the hills to, "cover us":

Luke 23:29-30
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

WHY will the deceived Jews at Christ's coming be wishing that upon themselves? Because they did not... remain spiritually barren waiting on Jesus to come. This means they will, in majority, fall away to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ that comes to Jerusalem first. So does that show the Jews in the nation of Israel being blessed at the very end? NO! It means they will fall away to false worship during the coming great tribulation.

Well at least you've deigned to give me an explanation for how you interpret those passages, LoL.

Davy, this passage isn't talking about His second coming, it's a warning about the fall of Jerusalem that would happen about 40 years later. This is why He says the women who were weeping for Him, "weep for yourselves and for your children." He was warning them that the place their children were living in would be conquered, and they had much more to weep for than just Him. This is why He added, "For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?” He was saying, "If you are weeping when your city is still alive and well, how much more will you weep when it is like dry wood and fit only to be burned in the fires?"

Here is the fuller passage:

27 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. 28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ 31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”

Isa 2:2-3
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
KJV

Thing is though, that above Scripture will not happen until AFTER Jesus has returned in our near future.

That is correct. As a nation, they will be conquered by the Antichrist. But now, how do you apply the following passage of scripture. It goes to the argument I am making in the OP:

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:13-17)

 

[Randy Kluth]

But now, how do you apply the following passage of scripture. It goes to the argument I am making in the OP:

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:13-17)

This has been one of the most difficult for me to determine as far as what I think. I know you're not asking me, but I'll venture an idea that is consistent with my own eschatology.

I think the "flood" is the Roman Army and European Civilization that continues coming after Israel, Israel being the Woman, and the Man-Child being Christ. The Woman's "other children" are Gentile Christians, and the Woman that Satan is enraged with is focused primarily on believing Jews, who make up a part of the Church.

This may extend to the endtimes, and not just have to do with the initial Fall of Jerusalem. I think the Fall of Jerusalem had already taken place by the time the Revelation was given.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This may extend to the endtimes, and not just have to do with the initial Fall of Jerusalem. I think the Fall of Jerusalem had already taken place by the time the Revelation was given.

Correct, Randy.

The Chapter spans the entire length of the church age, by mentioning how the dragon despised the woman (Israel) because she gave birth to the Christ Child who would rule over the nations, and then extends his hatred for Israel to the end-times by referencing the 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation before Christ's second coming. The Chapter starts as follows:

1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Revelation 12:1-6)

 

[Keraz]

this passage isn't talking about His second coming, it's a warning about the fall of Jerusalem that would happen about 40 years later.

Jesus prophesied about three future events in Luke 23:27-31;
1/ His impending Crucifixion.
2/ The Roman Conquest - 70 to 135 AD
3/ His Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal. Still unfulfilled.

Luke 23:27-31 A great number of people followed Jesus on His way to execution, among them many women who mourned and lamented over Him. Jesus turned to them and said: Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, weep for yourselves and your children. For the days are coming when people will say: Happy are those who don’t have children to worry about. Because then all will call to the mountains “fall on us” and to the hills “hide us”.

For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry?

‘weep for yourselves’, For those in Jerusalem at that time, this warned them about the coming conquest and destruction by the Romans, as then the Christians were told to ‘take to the hills’ and they escaped to Pella, in the Northern Jordan valley. Luke 20:24

But it is also a dual prophecy:
‘For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry?’ A Jewish proverb. An English equivalent: ‘You ain’t seen nuthin yet!’ Green wood doesn’t burn well, dry wood does, so Jesus is saying: you can expect a lot worse carnage and violence to come in a much later event. Ezekiel 20:46-48


‘fall on us and hide us’, This is paralleled by Revelation 6:15-17 and Isaiah 2:21, both in passages that vividly describe the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. As Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry, what follows in verse 2b is the Day when He will destroy His enemies: those who attack Israel and all the ungodly peoples. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 5:25, Isaiah 33:10-12, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Joel 1:15, Psalms 97:3-5, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27