Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

[Randy Kluth]

Working in the barn all afternoon. Taped the soccer match, I enjoy that, as a Bama fan football has become boring, LOL, born in T-Town. (seems too easy, we almost won this year in a rebuilding year, lol)

I'm a football fan too--mostly pro-football.

...As per scholars, just being honest, I don't put much stick in them, we have the holy spirit, we don't really need men.

The Holy Spirit didn't come to displace the ministries of men! The Holy Spirit established the ministries of men in the Church. The Apostle John said that we have no need to be taught certain things, which the "Anointing" provides. However, teachers were made a necessary part of our growth and correction, as I see it.

Using your argument, astronauts only need the Holy Spirit if they are Christians. They need no training in science and in operating their spaceships. Doesn't sound right? ;)

Thereby we know its of the holy spirit when it matches up in many varied scriptures. Its not copy and pasting, its affirming the scriptures, Jesus used scriptures to affirm scriptures the holy spirit writes the bible that is why it all fits together. ...

But the problem is comparable to working a jig saw puzzle. You can fit a lot of parts together because of the shapes. But if you don't see the whole picture, the parts may fit, but the puzzle won't look right.

For that reason, I feel we have to ensure that each biblical passage can fit together on its own before trying to compare it to other passages. Otherwise, we're going to have a million different possible scenarios!

The only people who will flee are those who come to know God right?

The ones who flee are indeed Jesus' Disciples! Jesus was speaking directly to them and to those who would later convert to him before the invasion of Rome 66-70 AD. They were to flee at the first sign of Roman troops arriving to quell the Jewish revolt. And if they didn't get away relatively soon, they would have to leave without time to take anything with them.

And verses 8-9 says they will call God their God and He will call them His children again. The Jews repent just before the 1260 event, God is not going to just save people, the Jews have to repent just like the Dan. 9:24-27 prophecy says, before he 70th week ends, this is why as Matt. 23 says, they will be calling him Blessed and Lord when he returns.

There is not a thing in the Bible that says this! Where in the Bible do you find Jews repenting before a 1260 day period? It is pure speculation without any explicit statement to that effect at all!

I try to keep myself out of trouble by ensuring that the Bible actually *says* the things I claim are true. Walter Martin used to say that "God doesn't speak with a lisp--when He wants us to *know* something, He comes out and explicitly says it!"

That's my golden rule of interpretation. If there's no explicit statement, don't make a definitive conclusion. The Holy Spirit says what He wants to say. And if He speaks in parables, then the context should suggest that He's doing that.

There were never any lost tribes, Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong was pretty much a wrong on all of his assumptions and theories.

I always avoided Armstrong, so I don't take stock in what he believed. But history itself tells us, and the Jews themselves tell us, that the 10 northern tribes were indeed "lost." They went into diaspora, and remained in enclaves among the nations until they eventually merged with those nations or returned to re-join with the Jews.

At any rate, what matters is that the Jews who returned following the Babylonian Captivity became representatives of all 12 tribes, to show that all 12 tribes have descendants among the Jewish People. It has nothing to do, I feel, with trying to preserve 12 literal tribes today!

As I've shown before, all 12 tribes came to be represented in the southern kingdom of Judah following the split between the north and the south because all of the tribes were supposed to worship God in the south. And representatives of all 12 tribes chose to live there for that reason. Read the story of Rehoboam and you'll see this.

Each tribe had men living in Jerusalem/Judah. ...The Olivet discourse from verse 15-31 is indeed end times imho.

This is not my position. Much that we read in that section of the Olivet Discourse had to do with directing Jesus' Disciples to the coming Roman invasion, to prepare spiritually for that event. Many Jews would fail during that time, and Jesus would warn his Disciples to stand on their own two feet.

Yes, this passage ends up speaking of Jesus' 2nd Coming, but not before Jesus inserted that there would be a time of desolation for the Jewish People, which would be assumed to take a very long time. Jesus called it a Jewish "distress," or "tribulation."

And in Luke Jesus described it as a period of exile, during which time the Gentiles would be predominant. We later learn that this rise in Gentile dominance over Israel was also for the purpose of establishing Christian nations. To bring Jews back from exile among the nations God also planned to evangelize those nations!

The Olivet Discourse from verse 15-31 is indeed the end times, so I am not conflating anything brother, I am just being factual here. The AoD is an end time event.

I don't agree, nor would many of the early Church Fathers. The context of the Olivet Discourse involves the destruction of the temple. The Disciples were given the "birth pains," or "early warning signs," of this event to come.

And all of these signs happened, including earthquakes, false messianic messages among the Jews, rumors of Roman military activity, persecution of believers by obstinate, rebellious Jews.

Judgment was coming. The city and the temple would be desolated, just as we read in Dan 9.26-27.

Rev. 12 is an end time event. Dan. 12 is the exact same end time event as Rev. 12.

On what basis? They may be comparable in the general time frame, but where is the explicit theological connection? There is none that I can see? In the Olivet Discourse Jesus explicitly referred to Dan 9. But in Rev 12 I see no explicit reference to Dan 12?

Well of course brother, why would I not want to believe in the Pre Trib Rapture if it is factul.

The point is--there are no facts! There is no explicit Pretrib Theology. You may try to arrange facts to induce a conclusion that is Pretrib, but it simply is not taught as such in the Bible.

Where, for example, does Jesus or the apostles explicitly say Jesus is coming again before the reign of Antichrist? You won't find it because it doesn't exist.

Therefore, the claim this is "factual" is pure "assertion," and not "factual" at all. I would rather rely on Scripture than on your assertion and claim of authority by revelations and callings!

By the way, I think I can win you over because it seems you are open to facts.

I'm subject to the Lord, and not in debt to defending my own pride. I try to *always* be open, no matter how sure I am of anything. The one thing I'm sure of is that I owe it to the Lord to *follow Him!*

I am sure you would be happy to go with us, but our bodies do not go zooming though the air, they remain on earth. But I have a few deep truths on this that moves a lot of peoples minds we will save that for another day. By the way, Paul told us it was a SECRET didn't he? He said, I tell you a Mystery (Musterion) or Secret by God's Silence (or to shut the mouth).

The word "mystery" doesn't always mean "private revelation." In this case Paul is talking about the "surprise" revelation of truth, and not anything that is exclusive or subjective.

For example, the mystery of Christ's death is not a matter of personal revelation alone, but more, a matter of receiving something "surprising," that a crucified Savior is our deliverer!

You want me to fib and say I am not blessed?

Of course not. I want you to be totally honest and transparent. I actually hear a few Christians on the forums who claim they can be sinless, and they truly believe they are "blessed" in believing that!

...The point being, if you want to make an argument against anything I say, Kool, but just trying to say I make others feel bad or they must be wrong if they disagree with me is not being very intellectually honest brother, you now people disagree with you does that make them wrong? That's a non sequitur brother.

Well yea, but I have to say what I believe too, right? Why should you state your mind and not let me state what I believe about that? It's a 2 way street!

Of course, I'm not comfortable telling somebody I like that I think they're blind about something. And I'm not great with tact. But my purpose here is to minister the word of God the best I can, and throw caution to the wind.

My interest is in *helping others,* the way God has helped me. And at the same time, I'm looking to be helped by others, just as God has helped them.

That's just the way it works. Let the chips fall. They will blow away soon. ;) Take care...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Historicist, Preterist, all the same thing. They wrongly believe Bible prophecy that has not... happened yet, to be past history already, just like your poor attempt to place the Luke 23:27-31 Scripture as being past history for 70 A.D. So thank you for your own work of labeling your position for us.

Davy, what prophecies have already happened and what prophecies have yet to happen are normal matters of interpretation. Some prophecies we're pretty sure about as Christians. For example, we believe the prophecy of "to us a child is born" applied to the Nativity, and is already fulfilled. The Jews, by contrast, don't believe that, and think it is still future. That doesn't make us "Preterists!"

There are a lot of prophecies open to question like this. Many Futurists accept that Jesus prophesied about the soon destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Inasmuch as they are Futurists they cannot be viewed as Preterists!

My own position is that a specific prophecy in the Olivet Discourse I believe referred to this coming of the Romans in Jesus' generation. Some think that is necessarily a Preterist position. Well, it is the Preterist position, but others besides Preterists believe this as well. They might be called "Historicist" interpreters, but that doesn't make them Preterists.

To be a Preterist requires, generally, that you believe *most* prophetic Scriptures are already fulfilled, and that very few prophecies have yet to be fulfilled in the future. For example, Preterists generally feel that most of the Revelation has already been fulfilled, that the "Beast" was the ancient Roman Empire.

Of necessity, we all as Christians must believe that some prophecies have already been historically fulfilled, eg the birth of Jesus. This doesn't make all Christians "Preterist!"

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

See hub commentaries HERE

Benson commentary:
But these shall escape out of his hand — These shall not be destroyed. Edom and Moab, and the children of Ammon — Grotius expounds the words to this sense, That Antiochus did not make war upon these people, because they readily complied with his commands, and joined with him against the Jews: for which cause Judas Maccabees made war upon them: see 1Ma 5:3-4.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So, notice something here? Edom, Moab and Ammon are where the children of Israel escape unto, in the Central and Southern Mountainous area of modern day Jordan, look them up on a map. He enters into the Glorious Land (Israel) but passes over other countries first (Syria, Lebanon and Jordan), then he conquers all of North Africa. Let me tell you, Edom, Moab and Ammon never resisted the Seleucids/Antiochus.

See above. When Daniel listed 4 succeeding empires, he was not necessarily saying that each successively controlled the same land territories entirely of the preceding empires. It just meant there was a predominance of power with each of these succeeding empires within the general region. Each had its own primary sphere of influence, but the extension of each succeeding empire suggested its own power in its time extended to become dominant over the others.

Antiochus clearly conquered Egypt, which is N. Africa. And he would not have had to conquer territories subject to him who also hated Israel. Their religions were likely less critical to them than the Jews who chose to die for their faith.

The exact same landmass will be in play again. A King from Greece who comes to power in the E.U. Other facts show he will not acknowledge ANY GOD, whilst Antiochus clearly worshiped Zeus.

The AGREEMENT with MANY is the European Neighborhood Policy.

I am going to post this separate since its a bit involved, and longer.

You seem to want to interpret prophecy in a dual way, laying a precise pattern in one prophecy for another, future prophecy. And I think this is at least partly illegitimate. Each prophecy must stand on its own.

I do think there are parallels and foreshadowings to help us understand the final fulfillment of all prophecies. But again, I base my theology on explicit theological statements, and not on parallel "proofs."

Where we agree, apparently, is on a future Antichrist who presides over Europe? I don't believe that an Antichristian "covenant" is anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The Holy Spirit didn't come to displace the ministries of men! The Holy Spirit established the ministries of men in the Church. The Apostle John said that we have no need to be taught certain things, which the "Anointing" provides. However, teachers were made a necessary part of our growth and correction, as I see it.

Using your argument, astronauts only need the Holy Spirit if they are Christians. They need no training in science and in operating their spaceships. Doesn't sound right?

Well, we are only speaking about God's holy writ here, not Science. In have a blog that describes Creation and how I think via factual scientific methodologies and the bible, we can see the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, the earth is 4.5 billion years old and the first YOWM (time period/insert needed info) was 9.2 billion years. How the first stars didn't even form for the first 400 million years, then we can see why God says there was Darkness was on the face of the Deep, we thus can understand why the Evening was first and then the light (YOWM = to be hot). So, I am not adverse to using useful scholars, just not some of the cuckoo ones we see in the religion department who have agendas, infer Jesus had a wife etc. I don't need scholars to come unto truths tbh, it may help in some instances, but I think it leads a lot of people down wrong paths. For instance, its obvious that Dan. 8 is about the Anti-Christ, not Antiochus, so anything a scholar tells me in that light is worthless because the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, I hear him, what others hear or don't hear is their business my calling is Prophecy and the understanding thereof.

But the problem is comparable to working a jig saw puzzle. You can fit a lot of parts together because of the shapes. But if you don't see the whole picture, the parts may fit, but the puzzle won't look right.

For that reason, I feel we have to ensure that each biblical passage can fit together on its own before trying to compare it to other passages. Otherwise, we're going to have a million different possible scenarios!

Its my calling, I can see the whole picture, its scary even to me, I can see it like a movie on a screen, its that plain to me. When God's calls us its without repentance, I had a vision and God tells me "The Man of Sin is here" 35 years ago. So, I know my calling, thus my prayer asking why I was stuck in a rut 5 or 6 years ago, as well as the Church. Since I come to understand that all I had to is simply ask God what does this mean, and never disengage a riddle, problem, or a contradiction until I got the answer, all of those puzzles are mere children's riddles. I can name the exact Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation (BoR), the exact timing the two-witnesses come onto the scene, the exact timing of the 7th Trump, the exact timing of he first four trumps, understand that none of the 7 seals are judgments, can describe who the 144,000 are, who the 8th king is (Apollyon), who the Scarlet Colored Beast is (Apollyon), why the Rev. 12 Beast has the crowns on his heads, why the Rev. 13 Beast has the crowns on his 10 Horns, and why the Rev. 17 Beast has no crowns. Why Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 start with the Rev. 8 Trumps and runs 1260 days in each case, why Rev. 14 and 19 both covers the full 7 years of the 70th week tribulation period, why Rev. 11 stars 75 days before the Rev. 8 middle of the week(1260) event and thus the Two-witnesses die 75 days before the Second Coming, thus the 7th Trump sounds and the 7 Vials last for 75 days. Its my calling, its what I do 24/7/365.


God teaches us to use the whole bible for confirmation.

The ones who flee are indeed Jesus' Disciples! Jesus was speaking directly to them and to those who would later convert to him before the invasion of Rome 66-70 AD. They were to flee at the first sign of Roman troops arriving to quell the Jewish revolt. And if they didn't get away relatively soon, they would have to leave without time to take anything with them.

Not so brother, all one has to do is read Matt. 24:4-6 very carefully and we can see Jesus forewarns his disciples just the opposite, not to return when they actually heard the wars and rumors of wars, he said you will hear these things but THE END (70th week) would be by and by or later on. Then in verse 14 Jesus gave them a huge clue, he said the end would not come until the Gospel had been preached unto all the world. So, they were never going to return to Jerusalem, their mission was to get the Gospel unto the whole world as fast as they could, and unto India and China, they knew Jesus could not come again until all the world heard the Gospel, so they knew 70 AD was not Jesus' Second Coming, thus Jesus told them not to return, he said nothing about fleeing because that is about the 70th week Jews, Matt. 24:15-31 is about the End Time Jewish Saints fleeing Judea.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

There is not a thing in the Bible that says this! Where in the Bible do you find Jews repenting before a 1260 day period? It is pure speculation without any explicit statement to that effect at all!

I will show you not only Zechariah 13:8-9, I will explain Zechariah 12, 13 and 14. Its baffling you say that after seeing the scriptures, it seems that you have never studied Zechariah in depth. I will highlight certain verses in Zechariah 12 and 14 but I will detail every verse of Zechariah 13.


Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

So, we know this is END TIME EVENTS, Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling and a burdensome stone, AND God pours out His spirit of grace (finally) and prayers/supplications on Israel (Who are the WHOLE HOUSE of David) at this time, and thus they shall finally SEEEEEEEE (blindness lifted) that Jesus, the one whom their pierced is their true Lord and loving Messiah, and they will mourn for him (THEY REPENT at this time).

----------------------------------------------------
Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. {{{See it now? When does Israel finally repent? Only now during the 70t week, and then and only then is the fountain (Jesus' Blood, and the precious Holy Spirit) OPENED unto Israel for sins and uncleanness !! BOOM, Amen, Glory to God.}}}

2 And it shall come to pass in that day(as above means in the Day Israel Repents), saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. {{ So, here we see that when Israel finally REPENTS, God causes the idols to be cut off, but this has a deeper meaning, it means al of the idols they worshiped which they never repented for, plus worshiping the Law as an Idol, plus the modern day Homosexual and Abortion agenda etc. etc. And God will cause the prophets, who are Rabbies and Demonic spirits, to pass out of the land, and they will never be remembered again. }}

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. {{{ From this point on, andone lying about Jesus will not be accepted, these Rabbis who have taught bad tings about Jesus, who have his name being a slur now, will not be able to continue lying anymore. }}}

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. {{{ This basically is saying the Rabbis and Jewish Religious Leaders will admit they were wrong, they are ASHAMED of their former prophetic utterances and teachings, and they will admit, I am no man of God, I am merely a Husband.}}}

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. {{{ This is basically Prophetic Prose, pointing to the fact that the person(Jesus) whom the Jews are now accepting in these End Time Events, was once rejected by them. }}}

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.{{ So, here we see Israel REPENTS, 1/3 of the Jews are going to repent, so since there are 10 million Jews living in Israel and 15 million living word wide, that means that 3-5 million Jews repent in these end time events. God hears their voice when they al unto Him, they repent and thus flee unto the Petra/Bozrah Mountainous area, where Gd protects them for 1260 days. Malachi 4:5-6 confirms this timing also. Ths all happens JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord God's Wrath which is the 1260 event. }}

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Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord(1260 event) cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

{{{ So, just after Israel repents we see the Day of the Lord arrive and Jerusalem is conquered, this is an END TIME EVENT, as is Zechariah chapter 12, and as is Zechariah chapter 13, where we see 1/3 of the Jews repent just before the Day of the Lord. Which is why I know the 1290 happens before the 1260, its just common sense. The Jews flee at the AoD (1290) and they have 30 days to flee, so no looking back. I will show Malachi 4:4-6 below. This is all end time prophecy fulfilled my brother. }}}

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

{{{ So, verses 3 and 4 are 1260 das after verses 1 and 2, we see Jesus shows up and defeats the thug Beast, and the armies of the Anti-Christ. We know Jesus wins via speaking victory. Amen. }}}



Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So, Elijah shows us to turn Israel back unto God just BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, we are only speaking about God's holy writ here, not Science.

Hermeneutics is a Science! If you treat Biblical Interpretation like a Ouija Board, instead of like a Science, I'm not surprised we disagree on many of these subjects. And I'm not surprised you refuse to listen to any information that contradicts your theories, no matter how "scientific" this information is!

Do you really think you can learn the biblical languages just by osmosis, by "feeling" the Holy Spirit? Language learning is a science. And those who wish to dig deep into the Scriptures often find it useful to learn Hebrew and Greek, as well as Aramaic. If you don't know what is really being said, the Holy Spirit isn't going to do the homework for you!

If you don't want to learn the biblical languages, the recourse is to lexicons and concordances, among other Bible aids. If you reject this too, I wonder how you can love any science at all?

You need to learn to listen not to *liberal* scholars, but to good conservative, believing scholars, who are time-tested. You certainly don't have to agree with everything they say, but their background information is, in my view, very useful.

And God, I believe, called these scholars too! They've dedicated their lives to helping other Christians properly understand God's written word. You would just throw that away?

What makes you think your claim to a "calling" is any more credible than their claim to a "calling?" What makes your studies more "enlightened" than my studies?

 

[michaelvpardo]

27 “Therefore you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Drink, be drunk, and vomit! Fall and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.” ’ 28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup from your hand to drink, then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “You shall certainly drink! 29 For behold, I begin to bring calamity on the city which is called by My name, and should you be utterly unpunished? You shall not be unpunished, for I will call for a sword on all the inhabitants of the earth,” says the Lord of hosts.’ Jeremiah 25:27-29
Jeremiah made this prophecy during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and prior to the Babylonian captivity. So when was this call for judgment accomplished with "a sword on all the inhabitants of the earth?"

Hint:
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;
Matthew 10:34-35

 

[Randy Kluth]

I will show you not only Zechariah 13:8-9, I will explain Zechariah 12, 13 and 14. Its baffling you say that after seeing the scriptures, it seems that you have never studied Zechariah in depth.

I know Zechariah well enough to have this discussion. To suggest otherwise seems to be your way of expressing your frustration that someone doesn't see things the way you do?

I'm particularly familiar with Zech 12-14. It is indeed mostly a sweep through NT prophecy to the end of the age, when Israel is delivered.

But the problem is, you've gotten off track from what I was asking. I asked where the Bible shows that the Jews repent and convert to Christianity *before* the 1260 days? There isn't even a 1260 day period in the book of Zechariah! So I have no idea what your concern is about my knowledge of Zechariah?

So, we know this is END TIME EVENTS, Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling and a burdensome stone, AND God pours out His spirit of grace (finally) and prayers/supplications on Israel (Who are the WHOLE HOUSE of David) at this time, and thus they shall finally SEEEEEEEE (blindness lifted) that Jesus, the one whom their pierced is their true Lord and loving Messiah, and they will mourn for him (THEY REPENT at this time).

I never said Zech 12-14 had nothing to do with endtime events. It speaks of the Shepherd being struck in ch. 13.7--this does not have to do with the endtimes--this is Christ being struck when he was crucified on the cross. The "sword" is being used, I think, metaphorically for getting murdered.

At any rate, I think the vision largely, in chs. 12-14, does have to do with Israel's ultimate deliverance in the endtimes. But none of this is said to take place *before* a 1260 day period, which is what you claimed.

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. {{{See it now? When does Israel finally repent? Only now during the 70t week, and then and only then is the fountain (Jesus' Blood, and the precious Holy Spirit) OPENED unto Israel for sins and uncleanness !! BOOM, Amen, Glory to God.}}}

There's not a thing about the 70th Week! You are adding things into the context, assuming it is the 70th Week. But nothing says this. You are being very "unscientific" about this, not interpreting things by the rules of hermeneutics.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.{{ So, here we see Israel REPENTS, 1/3 of the Jews are going to repent, so since there are 10 million Jews living in Israel and 15 million living word wide, that means that 3-5 million Jews repent in these end time events. God hears their voice when they al unto Him, they repent and thus flee unto the Petra/Bozrah Mountainous area, where Gd protects them for 1260 days. Malachi 4:5-6 confirms this timing also. Ths all happens JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord God's Wrath which is the 1260 event. }}

This may refer to Israel in all of NT history, or to Israel strictly in the endtimes--I don't know? I don't see a clear time-frame, although much of what is referred to is endtime.

And I've never doubted that Israel will be brought back to God at the return of Christ. The political deliverance begins before that, but the spiritual deliverance follows at Christ's Return, I believe.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

{{{ So, verses 3 and 4 are 1260 das after verses 1 and 2, we see Jesus shows up and defeats the thug Beast, and the armies of the Anti-Christ. We know Jesus wins via speaking victory. Amen. }}}

Yes, Rev 19 certainly fits the mold of Zech 14.3! I do see a possible reference here. I think you got confused about what I was asking. I of course believe much of Zech 12-14 is endtimes.

I do agree that Israel experiences limited political deliverance in the endtimes, right before the end. But I also believe that Israel's spiritual reformation takes place *at* the Return of Christ, and not *before* a 1260 day period.

You have not proven in the least that national Israel converts before the 1260 day period. In the present age, only a remnant converts to Christianity. That is in Romans 9-11.

 

[Truth7t7]

I sympathize. There is precedent for using symbols for blocks of time, such as in Joseph's dreams. In Gen 41 we see that cows and heads of grain represented years. "Times" may pass for "years" in Daniel's book.

We don't have a lot of precedent for a Week of 7 days representing a Week of years. However, it seems unnatural in the context to assume the things Daniel wrote of could be fulfilled in just days.

And so, most interpreters assume the day=year theory of interpretation. Daniel was apocalyptic in genre and used a lot of symbolism.

The use of cryptic language is, I think, associated with Jewish revelation in a pagan country, since the revelation may appear subversive and seditious to the overlords. Jesus used parables to hide truth from corrupt and judgmental Jewish leaders.

I see nothing wrong with viewing the 70 Weeks as 490 years. The emphasis was obviously on the series of 7--70 is 10 x 7. And there were 70 7s. It is a reference to the fact God established the Week as a unit of time under the Law.

It was established to represent the need for a period of rest following work, particularly in reference to redemption. The 70 Weeks has to do, therefore, with Israel obtaining final rest from all of her labors in justification.

By the 70th Week Christ had come to achieve that for them, even though Israel herself would continue to fail in her own temple worship. The temple would be destroyed, and Jerusalem would be desolated.

Fact is, if Daniel meant for (Seventy Weeks) to mean (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he would have written such, "He Didn't"

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not a Historicist either, and why are you always criticizing and insulting people when you don't even know what you are talking about?

Do you believe any of the 3 items below have been fulfilled?

1.) Matthew 24:15, Daniel's AOD

2.) Matthew 24:21, The Great Tribulation?

3.) Matthew 24:29-31, The Second Coming?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do you believe any of the 3 items below have been fulfilled?

1.) Matthew 24:15, Daniel's AOD

2.) Matthew 24:21, The Great Tribulation?

3.) Matthew 24:29-31, The Second Coming?

No.

Why?

 

[Truth7t7]

No.

Why?

Do you believe the three items below are future and unfulfilled?

1.) Matthew 24:15, Daniel's AOD

2.) Matthew 24:21, The Great Tribulation?

3.) Matthew 24:29-31, The Second Coming?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do you believe the three items below are future and unfulfilled?

1.) Matthew 24:15, Daniel's AOD

2.) Matthew 24:21, The Great Tribulation?

3.) Matthew 24:29-31, The Second Coming?

Future.

 

[Truth7t7]

Future.

If you believe all three items are future your not a Historicist or Preterist as posters have claimed, you believe as I do, all items are future unfulfilled, and we are described as "Futurist"

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I always avoided Armstrong, so I don't take stock in what he believed. But history itself tells us, and the Jews themselves tell us, that the 10 northern tribes were indeed "lost." They went into diaspora, and remained in enclaves among the nations until they eventually merged with those nations or returned to re-join with the Jews.

At any rate, what matters is that the Jews who returned following the Babylonian Captivity became representatives of all 12 tribes, to show that all 12 tribes have descendants among the Jewish People. It has nothing to do, I feel, with trying to preserve 12 literal tribes today!

As I've shown before, all 12 tribes came to be represented in the southern kingdom of Judah following the split between the north and the south because all of the tribes were supposed to worship God in the south. And representatives of all 12 tribes chose to live there for that reason. Read the story of Rehoboam and you'll see this.

Not the proper and full info there my brother, the 10 tribes were toted off, God punished them and a few from Judah who loved wickedness and moved there, what most don't get is many from the Northern Kingdom who 1.) hated wickedness and 2.) needed to live in the "big city" for work etc. or preferred to live there were never toted off or lost, this meant that every tribe of Israel always had seed living in Judah, there were many more, but if you only had one man from each tribe you had the seed of that tribe still alive, just like all Israel came from one man Abraham. So, the tribes were never lost, if an earthquake struck in Judah/Jerusalem and 90-95 percent of the people were killed, would they then be LOST or could the 5-10 percent repopulate the seed to Judah? Same principal, if we listen God tells us He has SAVED Himself 7000 which simple means seed from every tribe as in 7 (Completion) x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = All Israel. As I pointed out, Ezekiel 37:11 states emphatically that when Israel was brought back into the land God called them the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel, there was no seed missing. Thus they were toted off as the whole house of Israel, living in Judah, called Jews. Ezekiel 37 also has the Two Sticks Prophesy which tells us that God was going to make the two kingdoms into one Kingdom, God never wanted a divided Israel, so he made the two into one nation.

This is not my position. Much that we read in that section of the Olivet Discourse had to do with directing Jesus' Disciples to the coming Roman invasion, to prepare spiritually for that event. Many Jews would fail during that time, and Jesus would warn his Disciples to stand on their own two feet.

Only verses 4-6 cover the 70 AD event, that is why it ends with the END is By & By....later on, and by the end he means the 70th week after the Rapture of the Gentile Church because Israel are blinded until the time of the Gentiles be come in as Paul said in Romans 11.

Yes, this passage ends up speaking of Jesus' 2nd Coming, but not before Jesus inserted that there would be a time of desolation for the Jewish People, which would be assumed to take a very long time. Jesus called it a Jewish "distress," or "tribulation."

And in Luke Jesus described it as a period of exile, during which time the Gentiles would be predominant. We later learn that this rise in Gentile dominance over Israel was also for the purpose of establishing Christian nations. To bring Jews back from exile among the nations God also planned to evangelize those nations!

The AoD is the 1290 False Prophet, all one has to do quite frankly is look at Daniel 12:1-2, it clearly says at that time Michael shall stand up for Israel, many of the saints shall be raised unto Judgment, then it speaks about the 1260 Anti-Christ, the 1290 (False Prophet) and the 1335 (Two-witnesses). Then in Rev. 12 we see the exact same event, where Michael stands up and Israel flees, and where God protects her for 1260 days, the exact same number of days the Anti-Christ is shown to rule in Dan. 12:7. And Jesus then points to the exact same AoD Daniel spoke about in Dan. 12 and says these will be tribulations like never seen before, then tells about THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet in Matt. 24:24.

If we simply think on this a wee bit and understand that 70 AD was not as bad as WW2 where 6 Million Jews were killed. That proves that the 70 AD event can not be what Jesus was speaking about as the greatest ever tribulation, and that no time will ever again be like unto that time. Its obvious brother, the tribulation could not have been the 70 AD. That's a case closed statement there. The AoD in Matt. 24:15-21 is an End Time Event.

I don't agree, nor would many of the early Church Fathers. The context of the Olivet Discourse involves the destruction of the temple. The Disciples were given the "birth pains," or "early warning signs," of this event to come.

And all of these signs happened, including earthquakes, false messianic messages among the Jews, rumors of Roman military activity, persecution of believers by obstinate, rebellious Jews.

Judgment was coming. The city and the temple would be desolated, just as we read in Dan 9.26-27.

Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD.......Verses 7-14 the Church Age......verses 15-31 the 70th week Trib.

Daniel 9:26-27 crosses over 2000 years of time, you do know men (English translators) put in the chapters and verses right? So, imho, they divided it wrongly, I can still understand it, but it's what I do 24/7. I will sperate it correctly below to show why it causes confusion, the translators have the verses mismatched !!


Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks(69 weeks): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (Messiah is CUT OFF after 69 weeks/Sacrificed....there is one week left and Jesus is dead !! These are truths brother.)

and (AFTER Jesus is dead thus AND) the people(Romans/Europeans) of the prince that shall come(in 200 years) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Army/70 AD), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(the Diaspora). 27 And he(The prince that SHALL COME) shall confirm {Gabar = his Insolent actions and he thus FORCES concessions} the covenant with many(MANY Nations, not just Israel) for one week(7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(he CAUSES = he gets his 1290 High Priest False Prophet friend to do his DIRTY WORK), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The above is the proper context of the passage if one were going to divide it, the KJV translators had no idea what it meant at that time tbh, we looking back from the very end times are in a much better position to understand these things.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

On what basis? They may be comparable in the general time frame, but where is the explicit theological connection? There is none that I can see? In the Olivet Discourse Jesus explicitly referred to Dan 9. But in Rev 12 I see no explicit reference to Dan 12?

I think I kind of did this above but I can nail this one, so here goes. :cool:

Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven...........

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
--------------------------

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here we see in Dan. 12 that Michael STANDS UP for Israel at this time just like in Rev. 12, we see there is a time of troubles here like no nation has ever seen before (can't be 70 AD) or since, also at that time Israel is DELLIVERED, we know that was not true in 70 AD brother. God has blessed me with a gift on this stuff. I can see these things, I hunger for His truths. Then finally we see that at this time many who SLEEP in the dust will be judged, so this can only be an END TIME EVENT brother. Now in verse 7 we are told by the Man in Linen that Israel will be in captivity for a Time, times and a half [time], and John in Rev. 12 after giving us the number 1260 days in a regular way in Rev. 12:6 above, then gives it to us again by saying God (Eagles Wings) will protect the Woman (Israel) for a Time, times and half time in Rev. 12:14 !!

As per Matt. 24, its a no brainer, we can pass up Matt. 24:15-20, we know that is the AoD which you think happened in 70 AD but which I think has to be an End Time Event, all three of these chapters are sister passages. So, lets jump past the AoD passages and them fleeing unto the Mountains/wilderness to verse 21.

Matt. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation(pointing to the AoD fleeing event), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.{{70 AD did not have millions of deaths, this can ONLY BE the 70th week tribulation, in the future, where Israel will repent, then God will send Michael to go protect her for 1260 days. Amen}}.

22 And except those days should be shortened(to the prophesied 1260 days), there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened (Meaning Jesus will return and kill the Beast after his 1260 days of rule, hence he would naturally rule LONGER without God's intervention).

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. {{Jesus tells them when these TROUBELES are over, he will be seen coming in the Eastern Skies, Glory to God, come Lord come.}}

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have done this plenty of times, people can't see it until they see it.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The point is--there are no facts! There is no explicit Postrib Theology. You may try to arrange facts to induce a conclusion that is Pretrib, but it simply is not taught as such in the Bible.

Where, for example, does Jesus or the apostles explicitly say Jesus is coming again before the reign of Antichrist? You won't find it because it doesn't exist.

Therefore, the claim this is "factual" is pure "assertion," and not "factual" at all. I would rather rely on Scripture than on your assertion and claim of authority by revelations and callings!

You, I assume meant Pre Trib Theology but stated post trib, so I am gong to run with that assumption. I can find it, and show it, and I can show themes how it can only happen that way via the 7 Feasts, and I can show passages that show it can have no other timing except pre trib. I can also tell you Jesus was sent only unto the Lost Sheep of Israel, and he wouldn't even let his 70 go unto the Gentiles and he himself would not heal the Samaritan woman's child, called her a dog, but eventually healed her child because of her GREAT FAITH. So, faith moves God. But Jesus' ministry was only unto Israel, so why are you looking for preaching by Jesus about the Gentile Church to come He gave that mission to Paul, and Paul speaks of it, I can go into detail, but it will take a post all unto itself to bring much needed clarity in full. I just proved beyond a doubt that Rev. 12, Daniel 12 and Matt. 24:15-31 are all End Time Events !!

2 Thess. 2 specifically says the Departure (RAPTURE not Departure from the faith) will happen before the Man of Sin shows up and before God's Wrath falls. But, I digress, I will tackle this at a later time, it takes up hours.

I'm subject to the Lord, and not in debt to defending my own pride. I try to *always* be open, no matter how sure I am of anything. The one thing I'm sure of is that I owe it to the Lord to *follow Him!*

Amen brother.

The word "mystery" doesn't always mean "private revelation." In this case Paul is talking about the "surprise" revelation of truth, and not anything that is exclusive or subjective.

For example, the mystery of Christ's death is not a matter of personal revelation alone, but more, a matter of receiving something "surprising," that a crucified Savior is our deliverer!

True, we are not talking about private interpretations, we are talking about how Paul used the Greek word Musterion in that passage, when he says I tell you a mystery (Musterion) he's saying heretofore this has been a SECRET not shared by God.

#3466 μυστήριον musterion {moos-tay'-ree-on}

from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); TDNT - 4:802,615; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From a derivative of [[muo]] (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence)
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So, he's not actually saying a word we see today as a mysterious thing, he's saying I am telling you something God has not given to anyone else yet, except unto me (Paul) else it would not have been a secret. So, if anyone is looking for an outright confirmation from anyone but Paul, then Jesus would have had to of expressly taught about a Gentile Church Rapture, heck Jesus didn't even teach about a Gentile Church to anyone, Paul had to bring the Disciples around unto that, via the Holy Spirits affirmation of course. That is why its a secret.

BUT......;)Just as God speaks in parables and riddles, so only we can understand (LOL) He does the same thing with the coming Rapture, I can dig it out of the Old Testament, show it to people via Paul's writings, and last but not least prove it via matching up TIMING UNDERSTANDINGS of events, like I did with Dan. 12, Rev. 12 and Matt. 15:31.

Of course not. I want you to be totally honest and transparent. I actually hear a few Christians on the forums who claim they can be sinless, and they truly believe they are "blessed" in believing that!

Well, we are both blessed to be in Christ instead of living worthless dead end lives. Amen.

Well yea, but I have to say what I believe too, right? Why should you state your mind and not let me state what I believe about that? It's a 2 way street!

Of course, I'm not comfortable telling somebody I like that I think they're blind about something. And I'm not great with tact. But my purpose here is to minister the word of God the best I can, and throw caution to the wind.

My interest is in *helping others,* the way God has helped me. And at the same time, I'm looking to be helped by others, just as God has helped them.

That's just the way it works. Let the chips fall. They will blow away soon. ;) Take care...

I totally agree, but lets just keep it on a level where we both trust we are not charlatans trying to fleece people or Bill and Hillary types who lie just to lie. (LOL) I believe you are sincere in everything you espouse, but Prophecy is a hard row to hoe, I was called to it, and dared not say any of the things I say now because I didn't understand how to access all the facts until one day God simply thumped me on the head and said, "You guys already know it all Ron" And I understood what BLOCKED ME, and to be honest, I can see it blocking others now, because I can see other understandings I used to say, well maybe this is right or that is right, and people are still into those ideas !! I just cleared my mind, and God said, NOW........Let me teach you. He wants to teach us if we will let Him, we block him from doing so by running with other peoples ideas.

Here's the thing brother we are living in the very END TIMES when God promised He would reveal all things unto His peoples, that's what He told Daniel, when men run to and fro and knowledge increases these things will be reveled, and here we are (I did it for 30 years) trying to put forth other men's ideas from years gone by which they all put forth BEFORE the latter rains even started falling !! LOL, we are missing the rains, peddling other men's ideas who learned them before the latter rains started falling !!! Its FRESH NOW !! Lets jump in brother, lets simply ask God to reveal His understandings, He never fails me since I started doing that, that is why I poo pooed the Professors angle, we got Dr. Jesus, He will teach us all things in these end times, if we ask him,, but I do indeed heed all intelligence, some is just dumb men feigning intelligence, we know many of them. God Bless

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you believe all three items are future your not a Historicist or Preterist as posters have claimed, you believe as I do, all items are future unfulfilled, and we are described as "Futurist"

Yes. I don't get why people get confused. I have outright stated on this forum probably more than two dozen times now, "I am a Futurist," and yet still I get misunderstood, LoL.

Who knows... Maybe I need to start putting it in bold or something.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Fact is, if Daniel meant for (Seventy Weeks) to mean (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he would have written such, "He Didn't"

Yea, I know. For the reasons I gave you I and many others have determined that the use of symbols for years is legitimate, and is biblical, as I showed you. Furthermore, as I said, the use of sabbaths, which initially consisted of "days," represents units of work leading to rest. With respect to redemption, or liberation from slavery, the Week was a week of years.

Exo 21.2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

A greater period of redemption of property required 49 weeks of years, the year of jubilee.

Lev 25.8 Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years.

But 70 x 7 years is more like the promise of restoration following an almost endless series of failiures, much as Jesus said to forgive 70 x 7.

Lev 26.21 If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve... 23 “If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over... 27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over... 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.

The idea is that for every 7 times that pass with affliction God is willing to forgive and give rest. He does this 7 times, and then 7 times, and then 7 times, until full punishment comes and the covenant of protection is utterly broken, and the people are cast out into exile so that the land itself can have rest from the sins of the people.

But Jesus came, even then, to bring redemption to a people who had sinned like this--70 x 7. And so Daniel doesn't just give a number of days so that we can predict and anticipate a prophetic fulfillment. Much more, these are weeks of grace so that Israel can hope against hope that they will be restored from their captivity and exile.

And so, I don't think it's days at all. Like the slave released, it's a sabbath of years, to bring deliverance from the bondage of sin. Israel rebuilt their temple after their Captivity, but they were still in bondage to their own personal sin. And Messiah was coming to bring lasting forgiveness for those willing to receive it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not the proper and full info there my brother, the 10 tribes were toted off, God punished them and a few from Judah who loved wickedness and moved there, what most don't get is many from the Northern Kingdom who 1.) hated wickedness and 2.) needed to live in the "big city" for work etc. or preferred to live there were never toted off or lost, this meant that every tribe of Israel always had seed living in Judah, there were many more, but if you only had one man from each tribe you had the seed of that tribe still alive, just like all Israel came from one man Abraham. So, the tribes were never lost, if an earthquake struck in Judah/Jerusalem and 90-95 percent of the people were killed, would they then be LOST or could the 5-10 percent repopulate the seed to Judah? Same principal, if we listen God tells us He has SAVED Himself 7000 which simple means seed from every tribe as in 7 (Completion) x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = All Israel. As I pointed out, Ezekiel 37:11 states emphatically that when Israel was brought back into the land God called them the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel, there was no seed missing. Thus they were toted off as the whole house of Israel, living in Judah, called Jews. Ezekiel 37 also has the Two Sticks Prophesy which tells us that God was going to make the two kingdoms into one Kingdom, God never wanted a divided Israel, so he made the two into one nation.

This is so convoluted I can't understand it. I repeat--families from *all* 10 tribes in the Northern Kingdom came down to Judah to properly worship God in Jerusalem. The Northern Kingdom turned to idol worship, and so was abandoned by God.

Only verses 4-6 cover the 70 AD event, that is why it ends with the END is By & By....later on, and by the end he means the 70th week after the Rapture of the Gentile Church because Israel are blinded until the time of the Gentiles be come in as Paul said in Romans 11.

If you keep importing passages from elsewhere into a passage we're discussing we'll get nowhere. You have to interpret a passage in *its own context first!* Otherwise, everything gets convoluted, and you are basing your conclusions on many unproven assumptions about other passages. We can't discuss all of the passages you bring up at the same time!

The AoD is the 1290 False Prophet, all one has to do quite frankly is look at Daniel 12:1-2, it clearly says at that time Michael shall stand up for Israel, many of the saints shall be raised unto Judgment, then it speaks about the 1260 Anti-Christ, the 1290 (False Prophet) and the 1335 (Two-witnesses). Then in Rev. 12 we see the exact same event, where Michael stands up and Israel flees, and where God protects her for 1260 days, the exact same number of days the Anti-Christ is shown to rule in Dan. 12:7. And Jesus then points to the exact same AoD Daniel spoke about in Dan. 12 and says these will be tribulations like never seen before, then tells about THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet in Matt. 24:24.

Yes, some of this is related. Michael rises up in Dan 12 because that is right after the fall of Antiochus when Rome, the 4th Beast, is rising. Rome is the beast empire that destroys the city and the sanctuary and under which Jesus is cut off. Israel then enters into a new period of desolation by Rome, the Abomination of Desolation, which requires that Michael stand up to preserve Israel during the time of her tribulation/diaspora. In the endtimes, Satan rises to try to destroy Israel once more, but Christ, who was delivered from him, portends the end of Satan's violence.

If we simply think on this a wee bit and understand that 70 AD was not as bad as WW2 where 6 Million Jews were killed. That proves that the 70 AD event can not be what Jesus was speaking about as the greatest ever tribulation, and that no time will ever again be like unto that time. Its obvious brother, the tribulation could not have been the 70 AD. That's a case closed statement there. The AoD in Matt. 24:15-21 is an End Time Event.

What makes the tribulation the worst in Israel's history is not the number of the dead in a particular war. Rather, it is the sheer length of time of this particular punishment, which lasts *throughout the entire NT age!*

Earlier national judgments had lasted much less of a period of time, eg 70 years. This punishment will threaten the very existence of the Jewish People. And as we've seen, some have tried to extinguish them entirely, such as Hitler.

No, it is the *length of time* that makes this the worst punishment in Israel's history. We cannot compare death with death--all death is as bad as another death. This isn't about what torture is the worst torture!

Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD.......Verses 7-14 the Church Age......verses 15-31 the 70th week Trib.

Daniel 9:26-27 crosses over 2000 years of time, you do know men (English translators) put in the chapters and verses right? So, imho, they divided it wrongly, I can still understand it, but it's what I do 24/7. I will sperate it correctly below to show why it causes confusion, the translators have the verses mismatched !!

You are just asserting your own interpretations--not proving them!

...26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (Messiah is CUT OFF after 69 weeks/Sacrificed....there is one week left and Jesus is dead !! These are truths brother.)

After 69 Weeks of Years Jesus' ministry began and lasted until in the midst of the 70th Week he is cut off. What is actually said is that legal offerings are terminated in the midst of the 70th Week. But I interpret that to mean Christ is cut off at that time, as well, terminating the usefulness of animal sacrifices. I'm open on this.

The "people of the prince to come" were, in my view, the Romans, who desolated the city and the sanctuary. This "prince" was therefore not the Antichrist, in my view. Our posts are too long, and I'm told they need to be reduced or not be sent.