Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

[Ronald D Milam]

I don't know why the False Prophet would be any different? He may or may not be Jewish. I only know that he leads people not to worship himself as Messiah, but the Antichrist as a Messiah figure. If he is not a Messiah figure himself, then I doubt he is Jewish.

This never happens, and I see this from all spectrums who think Israel accept the Anti-Christ as their Messiah, believe me I get this from main steam guys, off the wall guys, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, you name it I see this everywhere brother. All because Israel

1.) Makes an AGREEMENT with the Anti-Christ, they cant get over the word covenant which in Hebrew simply means Agreement. So, Israel is not making a Covenant like with God they are entering into an AGREEMENT and the Anti-Christ does this not only with Israel but with the MANY (Egypt, Algeria, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Morocco, Jordan, Libya, and Tunisia).

2.) They also take John 5:43 completely out of context, Jesus was speaking specifically unto the Pharisees when he said you will not receive me who came from the Father, but if another comes in his own name him ye will receive. This simply meant that the Pharisees, understanding the bible, knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast, thus when they saw the 70 AD action of Rome they felt 100 percent sure their Messiah whom they saw as a political figure would rise up and save them, thus they "helped it along they way" or put for messianic type figures to try and save them from Rome, but of course they were conquered.

The 1/3 who repent flee unto Judea, the 2/3 who do not repent will be treated like they were with Hitler and killed, Satan hates them, his goal is to wipe out all the Jews. So, they never ACCEPT a Messiah, what Jesus was speaking about in Matt. 24:25-28 was a very particular warning, he told them what to look for where they could not be deceived, he will deceive many into thinking he is a good man, then kill them, but he's not going to play Jesus Christ, he is going to simply say I AM GOD WORSHIP ME OR DIE !! He demands to be worshiped himself he doesn't play Jesus Christ, he has the whole world at his fingertips, so who is it that he want which he can't get at? The 3-5 million Jews (144,000) who flee to the mountains in the Peta/Bozrah area. He will thus indeed try to trick them, but Jesus says BEHOLD, I have told you before[hand].

He then tells what he means, if they say I am in the desert "(Jesus come again) believe it not, or if they say I am in the secret storage room (don't believe it), for I will come from the EASTERN SKIES for all to see just like the Lightening goes from East to West.

This is why Jesus says it is not possible to deceive the Elect (Jews whom just repented) because I have told you beforehand what is gong to happen. Why would the Anti-Christ need to trick anyone else except those Jews in hiding that he can't get at? See my point? He has the ability to kill everyone else except those whom God protects in the wilderness !! So, in verse 25 where we see Miracles, that is designed to deceive the Elect Jews, but it will fail, the Two-witnesses have informed them of what's going down and God/Jesus has forewarned them also in Matt. 24, plus God has Angels, the Anti-Christ can not get at these 3-5 million (144,000) Jews no matter how hard he tries.

As a Beast having two horns like a lamb, and one called a "Prophet," I suspect he is a false religious leader within the Church. This isn't now about only Israel, but about the whole world. And so, I feel the two beasts are about two Gentile leaders who preside over a reconstituted Roman Empire.

The Church is Heaven, feigning to be a Religious leader who was left on earth has no merit to it IMHO, think about it. The 70th week is about Israel, the Martyrs are Gentiles whom come unto Christ Jesus after the Rapture and are thus not protected. The problem with people who do not get the Rapture understanding down in full, IMHO, is it throws everything ese out of kilter a wee bit to be honest.

You may be projecting what you want to believe? Studying is never easy. And if you haven't studied, then it would virtually be impossible. But I believe you have studied. So you should be honest and admit, there have been many, many questions you've encountered through the years in the Biblical Prophets? I certainly have. And I've had to wait for many years for some of the answers that eventually came in. I remain humble about it though. And I wish you would too?

I am always humbled, I am just blessed with God's favor.

I like to finish what I start, so I finished here and will now read the others later on today.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1.) Makes an AGREEMENT with the Anti-Christ, they cant get over the word covenant which in Hebrew simply means Agreement. So, Israel is not making a Covenant like with God they are entering into an AGREEMENT and the Anti-Christ does this not only with Israel but with the MANY (Egypt, Algeria, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Morocco, Jordan, Libya, and Tunisia).

We disagree on the Covenant of Daniel's 70th Week. I don't believe a 70 Weeks period that began in 457 BC can possibly have anything to do with future prophecy! The 70 Weeks of years would've run out in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. Whatever this "covenant" means, its time has run out, in my opinion. And many scholars concur.

2.) They also take John 5:43 completely out of context, Jesus was speaking specifically unto the Pharisees when he said you will not receive me who came from the Father, but if another comes in his own name him ye will receive. This simply meant that the Pharisees, understanding the bible, knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast, thus when they saw the 70 AD action of Rome they felt 100 percent sure their Messiah whom they saw as a political figure would rise up and save them, thus they "helped it along they way" or put for messianic type figures to try and save them from Rome, but of course they were conquered.

When Jesus said the Jews would "receive another in his own name" he wasn't being specific. He was saying, generally, that the Jews were accepting the word of Man, but not the word of God. Jesus indicated he was received only by those who were listening to God.

The 1/3 who repent flee unto Judea, the 2/3 who do not repent will be treated like they were with Hitler and killed, Satan hates them, his goal is to wipe out all the Jews. So, they never ACCEPT a Messiah, what Jesus was speaking about in Matt. 24:25-28 was a very particular warning, he told them what to look for where they could not be deceived, he will deceive many into thinking he is a good man, then kill them, but he's not going to play Jesus Christ, he is going to simply say I AM GOD WORSHIP ME OR DIE !! He demands to be worshiped himself he doesn't play Jesus Christ, he has the whole world at his fingertips, so who is it that he want which he can't get at? The 3-5 million Jews (144,000) who flee to the mountains in the Peta/Bozrah area. He will thus indeed try to trick them, but Jesus says BEHOLD, I have told you before[hand].

Here you are pasting together snippets of different prophecies to make them cohesive. But they weren't delivered to us this way, so I don't think it's wise to put too much stock in cross-referencing prophecies like this. Unless there is a specific reference to another passage I think we should be very careful trying to "line them up."

The reference to the 1/3 may come from Zechariah, and the reference to "fleeing" may come from the Olivet Discourse. Dealing with two different passages that may or may not relate can certainly confuse things if you aren't getting some of the pieces right!

I'm not personally sure whether the 1/3 in Zechariah refers to the entire NT age or just the endtimes, when Israel is purged of its sinful and recalcitrant members? And I think the Olivet Discourse focuses largely on the time of Jesus and that "generation," rather than refer to the endtimes. So confusing these two passages can, I think, present real problems.

He then tells what he means, if they say I am in the desert "(Jesus come again) believe it not, or if they say I am in the secret storage room (don't believe it), for I will come from the EASTERN SKIES for all to see just like the Lightening goes from East to West.

This is why Jesus says it is not possible to deceive the Elect (Jews whom just repented) because I have told you beforehand what is gong to happen. Why would the Anti-Christ need to trick anyone else except those Jews in hiding that he can't get at? See my point? He has the ability to kill everyone else except those whom God protects in the wilderness !! So, in verse 25 where we see Miracles, that is designed to deceive the Elect Jews, but it will fail, the Two-witnesses have informed them of what's going down and God/Jesus has forewarned them also in Matt. 24, plus God has Angels, the Anti-Christ can not get at these 3-5 million (144,000) Jews no matter how hard he tries.

Here you are conflating two different passages, as well. Reference to the "lightning" comes from the Olivet Discourse, and "protection in the wilderness" come from Revelation 12. I do think the "lightning" reference in the Olivet Discourse refers to Jesus' 2nd Coming, but I also think the main focus is on Jesus' own generation, who by contrast were to watch out for the coming of Rome in their own generation. Both events, the 2nd Coming and the Fall of Jerusalem, were being compared by Jesus, and both were being viewed by him as events of divine judgment that were to be prepared for, one way or another.

The Church is Heaven, feigning to be a Religious leader who was left on earth has no merit to it IMHO, think about it. The 70th week is about Israel, the Martyrs are Gentiles whom come unto Christ Jesus after the Rapture and are thus not protected. The problem with people who do not get the Rapture understanding down in full, IMHO, is it throws everything ese out of kilter a wee bit to be honest.

This is all predicated on the assumption of a Pretrib Rapture which I have to reject. There is no biblical theology supporting it. It is argued by Pretribbers that instead of an explicit theology we are given a secretive revelation, hidden from all but the faithful. Convenient! ;)

I am always humbled, I am just blessed with God's favor.

Oh I see--you're among the more "favored" who has been called to teach biblical prophecy, and therefore always "humble?" And so, you see that everybody who disagrees with you is "spiritually weak" or "blind?" [sigh]

 

[Randy Kluth]

The bible tells us about Antiochus in Dan. 11:21-34, then we get the Anti-Christ in verses 36-45.

As I said, I personally read the entire last sections of Dan 11 as about Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist. There are a good number of good Christians who believe as you do, that the last section deals with Antichrist. I think inserting Antichrist into a prophecy about the history of Syria and Egypt is awkward and unjustified. Most of what is said about Antiochus in the last paragraphs of Dan 11 can be explained as a recapitulation or generalized summary of all that has already been said about Antiochus.

The bible doesn't openly mention the False Prophet for a reason, if Daniel had of been told about a coming False Prophet, then for the next 500 or so years until Jesus came and died, and up util 70 AD, the Jewish Peoples would have killed every other Jewish High Priest thinking he was THE ONE to come, just like King Herod tried to kill baby Jesus. But when one understands the 1290, he understands that is about the false Prophet John spoke of freely after 70 AD, the Anti-Christ only shows up 30 days later at the 1260 event. Each number is that many days before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS Daniel had been shown in Dan. 11:36-45.

I see the 1290 days as a reference to Antiochus 4's period of persecuting Israel. This is to be contrasted with the 1260 days, or 3.5 years, mentioned in Revelation and in Dan 7. The reign of Antichrist and the reign of Antiochus are two distinct events, and should not be confused. The period of oppression is almost the same, but noticeably different. One is 1260 days, and the other is 1290 days. Antiochus oppressed Israel 1290 days.

I've also wondered why there isn't more biblical info on the False Prophet. I'm still asking God about it. I think the important thing to note is that religion is sometimes used to redirect Christians in the wrong direction. We need to be on guard with respect to corrupted religious men.

The 1335 comes first (took me a while to figure that out, like 35 years, I wonder if anyone has a guess at who it is, so I always leave it blank to start with) the 1290 is the False Prophet, and the Anti-Christ who conquers at the 1260 comes last.

I take it more simply, rather than try to put a bunch of diverse pieces together. Two major prophecies are given to the Jews by Daniel, and the book of Daniel ends by warning about both of them. One event is nearer to them in time, the prophecy of Antiochus, who will persecute them for 1290 days. The other event is the ultimate test under Antichrist, who will oppress them for 3.5 years.

The 1335 days is connected to the 1290 days, and may refer to the time it takes to get the news of Antiochus' death to the Jews in Israel. This was Payne's thoughts, who wrote his Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy.

I know they are types because I understand the ending and can see they are types. I can also see that Antiochus is given unto us in verses 21-34 just before we are given the coming Anti-Christ in verses 36-45.

I do think Antiochus 4 is a foreshadowing of Antichrist. But how far to take the comparison is the question. I refuse to speak dogmatically about anything that the Holy Spirit does not speak dogmatically about. If there is no explicit theology about it, we need to stay humble in our guesswork!

...I am sure you like me have many friends who have never repented, thus they are yet in their sins, likewise Israel as a Nation is yet in their sins, the bible tells us that Israel will be BLINDED until the time of the Gentiles has come in full (Church Age) thus the Rapture happens, and then God deals with Israel during the 70th week.

One cannot find the 70th Week anywhere outside of Dan 9. The 3.5 years of Antichristian rule comes from Dan 7.

No, I don't have a lot of friends who have never repented. That's because I keep as "associates" those who aren't real Christians, and do not regard them as close "friends." Through the decades I have relatively few Christian friends who have abandoned Christianity altogether. Most have kept an attitude of "repentance," and continue to live for Christ.

There are many who might repent out there in the world if they weren't surrounded by corrupt leaders whose propaganda keeps them in bondage. They are told Christianity is evil. Their inward Sin Nature propels them in the direction of Human Liberty, which of course is not real liberty at all--just liberty from obeying God's word.

Israel has been kept in bondage by their antiChristian leaders. And God has refused to destroy them instantly because that would end the process of redemption both among the Jews and in the rest of the world. Evangelism has a rational way of proceeding, first absorbing entire nations who are given a chance, like Israel, to become a "Chosen Nation." In other instances, people who live in backslidden Christian nations or pagan nations are given opportunity to be released from their bondages and deceptions on an individual basis. Ultimately, international judgment will come, and actually has been coming throughout history.

So, to anyone that says Jesus is not in the Old Testament, I can show you places he is in the Old Testament under Yeshua (Salvation......at another time).

Yes, I know. Interesting subject.

That which is confirmed by the prince to come (Anti-Christ called he which points back to verse 26 the prince to come) and of course it has a small letter not a capitol, if it was Jesus it would have been capitalized just like in Dan. 8:25 where he is called the Prince of princes. Now see the difference in the verses I post below:

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people(Romans or Europeans) of the prince(Anti-Christ that shows up in 2000 some odd years) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I see this as a reference to 70 AD--not the Antichrist. That's also why I see the Olivet Discourse as focused primarily on the 70 AD event, soon to come up.

Why would Jesus destroy the city and the Sanctuary? Then verse 27 POINTS BACK to that prince by saying he

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Again, Messiah the Prince is capitalized, the prince and he is not, both ae the coming Anti-Christ.

Capitalization is the product of translators--it is not to be viewed as necessarily inspired by the original authors. Who is who in Dan 9 has been the subject of many commentators. My own view is that the "prince to come" is Rome, and his people the Roman Army. Here is how I see it:

Dan 9.25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [Jesus] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One [Jesus] will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come [the Roman Army] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [70 AD]. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [Jesus] will confirm a covenant [the promises under the Law] with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ [after 3.5 years] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [completing the 70th Week as a half-week]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the Roman Army], until the end that is decreed is poured out on it [the temple].”

Zechariah 14:Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zech 14 refers, I think, to the endtimes. It appears to be comparable to Armageddon, but I can't say for sure. It certainly confirms the ultimate salvation and deliverance of national Israel from surrounding neighbors.

He will be European, just not a Religious Leader, he will be the President of the E.U.

I can't say, but it's possible that Antichrist will preside over a confederation of European states, yes. He emerges, according to Dan 7, out of the 4th Beast, which I view as Rome, or European Civilization. The EU seems to be headed in the direction of Antichrist, since it has been all but abandoning Christian truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm not a Preterist. I'll read the rest of your post later maybe, but stop labelling people when you don't know what you are talking about.

I get called a Preterist regularly when I'm not. Many, many Christians, for example, have expressed belief that Jesus foretold the Fall of Jerusalem in his generation, in 70 AD. The Church Fathers certainly taught that!

And this is also what I believe, that Jesus taught "every stone will be brought down," the "temple will fall." He was referring, I think, to the coming invasion of Rome to destroy both Jerusalem and the temple.

But this doesn't make anybody a "Preterist." I don't know what your beliefs are, but I do know that some Christians are throwing around the "Preterist" label to quickly or too easily. I actually have friends who are Partial Preterist, and I don't even use the word "Preterist" as an insult towards them. They simply believe that most of the prophecies were fulfilled in the Early Church, and continue to believe Jesus is coming back.

I think what causes some to call me a "Preterist" is that I also believe that the "Abomination of Desolation" was the Roman Army in 66-70 AD. This is unforgiveable for many Dispensationalists and for many modern prophecy interpreters. The popular belief is that the AoD is the Antichrist.

But this doesn't make me a "Preterist" either. What makes one a Preterist is the belief that *most all* of the biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the Early Church. I don't at all believe that, since I believe that the "Great Tribulation" was a Jewish Punishment extending throughout the NT age, and that Antichrist will arise and oppress Christianity for 3.5 years at the end of the age.

I agree that people should slow down a bit before they throw out these labels! Partial Preterists are genuine Christians who believe that Jesus is Coming Back. But they also believe that most all of the biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the Early Church. I do *not* believe that, and yet am called a "Preterist!"

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think what causes some to call me a "Preterist" is that I also believe that the "Abomination of Desolation" was the Roman Army in 66-70 AD. This is unforgiveable for many Dispensationalists and for many modern prophecy interpreters. The popular belief is that the AoD is the Antichrist.

Some would say that might make you a partial Preterist as well. :) But it's not a dirty word. I simply don't like being mislabeled as one any more than you do, as it both misrepresents and dismisses my views on eschatology in the same breath.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I enjoyed your post, but you should understand that with God, there is no plan B. The Lord knows the end of a matter from its beginning. He knows what's in our hearts, and there is nothing hidden from Him. This is the quality theologians call "omniscience." I haven't supplied the scriptural support for this understanding, but theologians have done this repeatedly for centuries, and it's relatively easy to spot when reading through scripture.

Sorry, I missed this, was sleepy at about 5 or 6 PM yesterday, I get up at 5:30 AM in the mornings.

God foreknowing what will happen, and His plans for Israel or anyone, is a different thing, God foreknew Adam would sin, but Gods plans was not for Adam and Eve to sin. There is a huge difference, when God gives us free will, then He will not superimpose His plans on us, else we would all be nothing but a computer algorithm.

God indeed foreknew Israel would turn from Him and thus he chose the Gentile Church to take His message unto the world. But the facts remain, if Israel had of repented the 70th week would have been fulfilled long ago, the prophecy tells us what conditions need to me met, Israel the had to meet those conditions, of their own volition they chose to reject God.

Nineveh was supposed to be wiped out, but they repented. And Pryers can change God;s mind.

2 Kings 20
1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover." 2Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: 5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, `This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.'"

I agree, God foreknows everything, but God desires for us is plan A right? Life in Christ. And plan B is hell. God probably has more plans for us then we will even know and we fail at most of them sadly. But I understand your point because I agree with it, God knows all things, but what He plans for us is often not the course we take.

 

[Randy Kluth]

To be honest, my calling has been of God for over 35 years, so I don't take peoples advice who try to get me to think that I don't hear the Holy Spirit, tbh, I don't even get where that kind of thinking comes from brother.

You get that from judging things by the Scriptures. We are not to accept one's claims about themselves, which can be deceiving. The heart is, by nature, self-deceiving, and pursues self-interest and self-preservation. It might want to reject honest criticism as "persecution."

Look at the Church brother, should we have one interpretation from God or many?

Paul said that there must be division to show who God favors. Make sure you're always on the right side. The heart is deceitful. Stay open to God for correction. Stay humble. You say you're always humble. You don't come across as humble. Claiming to hold to positions for 35 years is the opposite of humility. It shows intractability.

...of course anyone who thinks that Daniel 8 is about Antiochus and has invested years in that is not going to see it as end times unless they are willing to change their opinion...

But I have no vested interest in viewing Dan 8 as about Antiochus 4. I get my info from scholarship. You seem to have more invested in your viewpoint than I have, your having produced a number of documents on it?

As a man, called unto Prophecy specifically (in a Vision in 1986 a loud booming voice from above simply said "The Man of Sin is Here" then in another vision, to affirm the first vision I was in a huge auditorium where maybe 10 people were listening to Jimmy Swaggart preach, within 2 weeks he had fallen from grace) I prayed one night about 5 or 6 years ago this prayer, "Lord, why is the church always in confusion? Why is it we have 100's of interpretations of what/who Babylon is, who the 7 Headed Beast is, who the Harlot is, who the 144,000 is etc. etc. but there is only one truth?

And I got this from the Holy Spirit "Ron, you guys already know it all" and I understood instantly. Notice how the Lord is always to the point? So, what did that mean? It meant we as men were learning these prophetic utterings from other men, just like the Pharisees were told by Jesus that the reason you can't see who I am is your "Men's Traditions" !! So, because we all learned these prophetic things from other men, Satan has us not only confused as a church on prophecy, but bound up to many of these untruths.

This is "self-aggrandizement." You receive visions and prophecies--you therefore know the truth. But we have the Scriptures to test your teachings and your prophecies. And you fall short, in my view.

Nothing personal--I just don't believe you. And I don't believe you not because I dislike you, but rather, because your teachings just don't square with reality, in my view.

Right then I understood what I had to do, it was so simple, anytime I came upon anything in the bible, especially on prophecy, that was contradictory or confusing I was to stop, and simple ask the Lord, show me your truths Lord, just like I had done when I first got saved with the Gospels, where Jesus/Holy Spirit never failed me. So, I started doing just that, and the answers always have cone to me in the last 5 or so years. I wrote a blog that took a long time on Babylon saying that the Babylon of Rev. 17 was actually Rome, the Lord was like "You are wrong Ron, Babylon is not Rome, LOOK at what John actually SAW".

I've spent a lot of time with the Harlot Babylon prophecy primarily because David Wilkerson was a big influence in my life, and he wrote a book identifying the US as Harlot Babylon. I opposed him on this in a letter, and he wrote back, explaining that he was just saying that the US is in the mold of Harlot Babylon--not interpreting it literally as such.

So I've had to study this for years. Like you I've prayed for help in interpreting these things. Answers have been forthcoming but over a long, long period of time. And I try to remain humble about it. Unfortunately, what God seems to have shown me conflicts with what you claim God has shown you! What can I do but reject your "personal testimonies" and self-aggrandizing semi-proofs?

I see Rome as Harlot Babylon, and the eventual state of Rome at the time when Antichrist unites the new Roman Confederation. This is, I think, the 4th Beast of Dan 7 in its endtime stages.

If you stop and think, you know what you basically said to me earlier? We can't ever know if its the truth from God or not.

I think you misinterpreted me. What is taught dogmatically in the Scriptures is biblical theology and we can teach it with certainty. If the Bible comes out and says that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life, we can with certainty teach that Jesus is God's Word made flesh!

Point being, the reason the 144,000 are not seen as the Jews who repented fleeing Judea unto the mountains is we have named them Super Preachers, which is a falsehood. When we get it right, we can then maybe see that the Trumpet Judgments in Rev 8 are the first judgments the Jews are fleeing at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260 Anti-Christ comes to power. The church can't see that because they see these 144,000 as Super Preachers, so Satan has done well via his deception in that case. He knows if he can get a falsehood on one mountain so to speak, he can then confuse elsewhere.

In all honesty, you mishmash many different prophecies together, making it a potpourri of ideas that no longer resembles the Scriptures that spawned those ideas. I like to keep it simpler, and closer to the original Scriptural portrait.

The 144,000 is a subject all to itself, and having diverse views of it doesn't mean the Church is divided or backslidden. We are designed to search these things out, if we are diligent, and to be correctable, if we are virtuous.

You don't sound very correctable, but I hope I'm wrong? I'm not of course suggesting I'm the one to correct you--I'm just saying that if we hold to our positions as "Spirit-inspired" for 35 years, where is the correction, and where is the growth?

Were you spiritually mature and completely responsive to direct revelation from God 35 years ago? According to you, you were. And that flashes warning lights to me!

 

[Randy Kluth]

1.)
Antiochus neve conquered Egypt but ONCE and we see that in Dan. 11:23-28, not in Dan. 11:36-45

As I said, the last part of Daniel is, in my opinion, a summary of the preceding info about Antiochus 4. It is called a "recapitulation." The same ideas were covered to sum up, including the 1st invasion of Egypt, and the succeeding attack on Israel.

1.)
After verses 23-27 (ABOVE), Antiochus NEVER Conquered Egypt again, he was ordered by three Roman Senators to NEVER go to war against Egypt again, this is a historical fact, that happened in verse 29

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Antiochus Epiphanes soon returned to Egypt with the intention of conquering Alexanderia. The Egyptians however sent a message to Rome asking for help. Three Roman senators were sent by ship to inform Antiochus Epiphanes that he was not to invade Egypt and to demand that he retreat immediately. This of course made him angry and he seems to have taken it out on the Jewish believers. He killed them but allowed the Hellenistic Jews to live as long as they forsook the Holy Covenant !! He was indeed a vile man, seemingly a forerunner to the coming Anti-Christ/Beast in some of his mannerisms.
--------------------------------------------------------------

All of the above happened before he went to Jerusalem and killed 60,000 people, as we see in Daniel 11:31-33

I do get things mixed up sometimes. I will try to restate the order of events. I see the order as Antiochus goes to Egypt, conquers it, and spares Alexandria for the sake of his relative. He returns home but hears bad news of conspiracy against him in Egypt and returns there. Only this time he is stopped by a Roman ambassador. After that, he hears news of a Jewish conspiracy and goes there to oppress those he feels are conspirators. Antiochus later goes East to fight the Persians, and eventually dies on his way back to Jerusalem.

So yes, he went to Jerusalem *after* he had conquered Egypt, and after he had made his 2nd trek to Egypt and was stopped by the Roman ambassador. He invaded and persecuted the Jews in roughly 68 BC, and was stopped by the Roman ambassador just before that.

1.)
Now lets look at verses 34 and 35 which was about the Maccabean Revolt, where we can get locked in on a Timeline on these events...
So, Antiochus died in 164 in the middle of the Maccabean Revolt. So, how is Daniel 11:36-45 about Antiochus Epiphanes ? He could not ever conquer Egypt again...

Again, I see vss 36-45 as a recapitulation of the earlier references to this history. The history consists of Egyptian conquest, a return to Egypt to put down a revolt, stopped by a Roman ambassador, and rage directed at the Jews. This is all found in the early part of the account of Antiochus 4. And it is reiterated in vss 36-45.

Dan 11.21 “He will be succeeded by a contemptible person [Antiochus 4] who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. 22 Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him [defeat of Egypt, except Alexandria]...
25 “With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South [defeat of Egypt, except Alexandria--a recapitulation of vs 22.]
...28 The king of the North will return to his own country with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant. He will take action against it [preliminary to the Jewish attack] and then return to his own country.
...29 “At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. [2nd attack on Egypt, stopped by Rome] 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. [attack on the Jews]
...36 “The king will do as he pleases....39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price. [a recapitulation of the initial attack on Egypt and of Antiochus' preliminary dealings with the Jews]
...40 “At the time of the end [the resolution of these events] the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. [a recapitulation of the defeat of Egypt] 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. [the attack on the Jews following the 2nd invasion of Egypt] Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. [a recapitulation of the defeat of Egypt]
...44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. [reports of a Jewish rebellion, and a recapitulation of the attack on the Jews] 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him. [Antiochus' military tent set up near Jerusalem while he was away fighting the Persians until his death]

This would be difficult if you didn't see vs 36 and continuing as a recapitulation of the previous account of Antiochus activities. It's basically, I think, a summary of the major points.

He attacks Egypt and conquers it, save Alexandria. And this is reiterated again and again. After the 2nd effort at conquering Egypt he gives up and attacks the Jews. This is restated in vss 41 and 44, because this was a warning directed towards the Jews, to be ready for it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

...I want to reshow you things you never really tried to rebut, just so others understand I did indeed prove Dan. 8 was end times....I am going to show in scriptures how each of these verses are end times via other scriptures.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, (1)when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of (2)fierce countenance, and (3)understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his (4)power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and (5)shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and (6)he shall magnify himself in his heart, and (7)by peace shall destroy many: he (8)shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he (9)shall be broken without hand.

...What do you think this can possibly mean brother?

You say you're going to prove Dan 11.36-44 is about the Antichrist, and you ask me what I think? I think every bit of this applied to Antiochus 4! I was trained a little in behavior mod. If you pair two things together long enough, then the one stimulus induces the 2nd stimulus. If you read this language above to be about Antichrist long enough, then it will *sound* like its about Antichrist eventually!

1) strong, mighty, fierce
...So, we are supposed to think this means Antiochus, who cowered before three Roman Senators, ducked tail and ran off to Israel to kill defenseless men, women and children?

Yes, this applied to Antiochus 4, who conquered Egypt, save Alexandria, tried to impose his will on Persia, and fiercely persecuted the Jews. He didn't "cower" before Rome--he made a rational decision not to oppose it.

His power shall be MIGHTY but not by his own power (By Satan the Dragon)

Antiochus was influenced and empowered by Satan, just like Antichrist will be. This is not proof of anything other than the fact Satan will empower the Antichrist in the book of Revelation. It says nothing about who is in Dan 11!

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;(1260 days) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

I do agree this refers to the 3.5 years of Antichrist's oppression of Christianity. The 1290 days mentioned later in Dan 12 refers, by contrast, to the reign of Antiochus 4.

He will indeed maginfy himself in his own heart.

This isn't proof of anything.

He will destroy MANY by Peace.

Not proof of anything!

God Bless, got 12 hours sleep, :).

It should help you face this wicked world a little better. It tries to get on top of us, and there's nothing better than getting enough z-z-zs!

Look I am pointed and to the point, but never disrespectful to others, its not my style, so don't take it personal if I bring forth my 35 years of Gods teachings with me. Anyone who can verify anything with me via the scriptures, I will listen.

Yea, I try to be that way too. I appreciate you taking a huge chunk of time with me. I value hearing various views that are honestly held, even if I don't agree with them. I'm trying to know what God is saying in all of it, and He is always saying something in it...somewhere! ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Some would say that might make you a partial Preterist as well. :) But it's not a dirty word. I simply don't like being mislabeled as one any more than you do, as it both misrepresents and dismisses my views on eschatology in the same breath.

Well personally, I do get offended by those calling me a "Preterist" because it conjures images of someone who doesn't believe in the Antichrist, in the restoration of Israel, and in a future application of the book of Revelation. And I believe those things.

In all reality, there is confusion about what a "Partial Preterist" really believes, ie what the criteria are for fitting in that label? The traditional view is that virtually all of the Olivet Discourse and all of the book of Revelation was fulfilled in the 1st century or soon thereafter. PPs believe that Christ is in fact coming again, but all of the preliminary prophecies spoken of in the book of Revelation have already been fulfilled.

And that's the definition I go by, meaning that I am *not* a "Partial Preterist!" under this definition. A lot of people today are part of what I'm calling "modern prophecy enthusiasts," and they are largely futurists who want to believe that most everything in the book of Revelation and in the Olivet Discourse is about the endtimes.

I certainly don't believe that since indeed Jesus foretold the fall of Jerusalem in the Olivet Discourse. If that makes me a "Partial Preterist" in your eyes, then I guess that's your choice and your definition of one.

But thanks. We sympathize with each other over being called a "Preterist." ;)

 

[michaelvpardo]

Sorry, I missed this, was sleepy at about 5 or 6 PM yesterday, I get up at 5:30 AM in the mornings.

God foreknowing what will happen, and His plans for Israel or anyone, is a different thing, God foreknew Adam would sin, but Gods plans was not for Adam and Eve to sin. There is a huge difference, when God gives us free will, then He will not superimpose His plans on us, else we would all be nothing but a computer algorithm.

God indeed foreknew Israel would turn from Him and thus he chose the Gentile Church to take His message unto the world. But the facts remain, if Israel had of repented the 70th week would have been fulfilled long ago, the prophecy tells us what conditions need to me met, Israel the had to meet those conditions, of their own volition they chose to reject God.

Nineveh was supposed to be wiped out, but they repented. And Pryers can change God;s mind.

2 Kings 20
1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover." 2Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: 5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, `This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.'"

I agree, God foreknows everything, but God desires for us is plan A right? Life in Christ. And plan B is hell. God probably has more plans for us then we will even know and we fail at most of them sadly. But I understand your point because I agree with it, God knows all things, but what He plans for us is often not the course we take.

The Lord didn't tempt Adam and Eve to transgress their one commandment, but He knew it would happen. It remained within His sovereign plan. I can say this with confidence because:
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 1 Peter 1:18-20

And:
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

And:
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

And praise the Lord, blessed forever:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:3-5

Clearly, it is better to obey the Lord:
22 So Samuel said:
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams. 1 Samuel 15:22
But our redemption was planned before the foundation of the world. How awesome is that!

 

[michaelvpardo]

37 Thus says the Lord:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:37
(If you read the entire chapter, you'll see that this is about the replacement for the old covenant of the law, with a new and better covenant, the same established through the blood of Christ.)

 

[Truth7t7]

We disagree on the Covenant of Daniel's 70th Week. I don't believe a 70 Weeks period that began in 457 BC can possibly have anything to do with future prophecy! The 70 Weeks of years would've run out in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. Whatever this "covenant" means, its time has run out, in my opinion. And many scholars concur.



When Jesus said the Jews would "receive another in his own name" he wasn't being specific. He was saying, generally, that the Jews were accepting the word of Man, but not the word of God. Jesus indicated he was received only by those who were listening to God.



Here you are pasting together snippets of different prophecies to make them cohesive. But they weren't delivered to us this way, so I don't think it's wise to put too much stock in cross-referencing prophecies like this. Unless there is a specific reference to another passage I think we should be very careful trying to "line them up."

The reference to the 1/3 may come from Zechariah, and the reference to "fleeing" may come from the Olivet Discourse. Dealing with two different passages that may or may not relate can certainly confuse things if you aren't getting some of the pieces right!

I'm not personally sure whether the 1/3 in Zechariah refers to the entire NT age or just the endtimes, when Israel is purged of its sinful and recalcitrant members? And I think the Olivet Discourse focuses largely on the time of Jesus and that "generation," rather than refer to the endtimes. So confusing these two passages can, I think, present real problems.



Here you are conflating two different passages, as well. Reference to the "lightning" comes from the Olivet Discourse, and "protection in the wilderness" come from Revelation 12. I do think the "lightning" reference in the Olivet Discourse refers to Jesus' 2nd Coming, but I also think the main focus is on Jesus' own generation, who by contrast were to watch out for the coming of Rome in their own generation. Both events, the 2nd Coming and the Fall of Jerusalem, were being compared by Jesus, and both were being viewed by him as events of divine judgment that were to be prepared for, one way or another.



This is all predicated on the assumption of a Pretrib Rapture which I have to reject. There is no biblical theology supporting it. It is argued by Pretribbers that instead of an explicit theology we are given a secretive revelation, hidden from all but the faithful. Convenient! ;)



Oh I see--you're among the more "favored" who has been called to teach biblical prophecy, and therefore always "humble?" And so, you see that everybody who disagrees with you is "spiritually weak" or "blind?" [sigh]

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years), it's that simple

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see (70 Literal Future Weeks) or 490 days.

When the (Future) call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off with Armies surrounding Jerusalem, who stop the building.

The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation now starts.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

When Jesus said the Jews would "receive another in his own name" he wasn't being specific. He was saying, generally, that the Jews were accepting the word of Man, but not the word of God. Jesus indicated he was received only by those who were listening to God.

Working in the barn all afternoon. Taped the soccer match, I enjoy that, as a Bama fan football has become boring, LOL, born in T-Town. (seems too easy, we almost won this year in a rebuilding year, lol)

Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders (Pharisees/Scribes) about a man he healed on the Sabbath, they wanted too kill him, thus he was specifically talking about 70 AD imho when he told them in verse 43 that he came in his Fathers name and ye wont receive me, but if another comes in his own name him ye will receive, he was speaking about another christ they would put forth around 68-70 AD. Jesus was the Messiah, so it had a Messianic slant to it, even though they probably didn't understand it. Now I admit they probably though he was speaking about people in and around them at the time, but Jesus was the Messiah, so he was speaking of receiving him as the Messiah, they couldn't even fathom that.

We disagree on the Covenant of Daniel's 70th Week. I don't believe a 70 Weeks period that began in 457 BC can possibly have anything to do with future prophecy! The 70 Weeks of years would've run out in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. Whatever this "covenant" means, its time has run out, in my opinion. And many scholars concur.

I will run down my blog on it later, I can't add anything better than my blog tbh. As per scholars, just being honest, I don't put much stick in them, we have the holy spirit, we don't really need men.

COFFEE.............Ahhhhhhhhhh. I have to drink decaf, but its still pretty good, lol.

Here you are pasting together snippets of different prophecies to make them cohesive. But they weren't delivered to us this way, so I don't think it's wise to put too much stock in cross-referencing prophecies like this. Unless there is a specific reference to another passage I think we should be very careful trying to "line them up."

Come on now, this is how God tells us to read the bible/study the bible, the reason people get lost, like on those Seals is they take single verses and create all new Religions from them. That is why we are to do this.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Thereby we know its of the holy spirit when it matches up in many varied scriptures. Its not copy and pasting, its affirming the scriptures, Jesus used scriptures to affirm scriptures the holy spirit writes the bible that is why it all fits together. The book of Revelation (BoR) is sorta my specialty, it teaches us that we have to connect all of the bible together because it joins the New Testament and Old Testaments together in perfect symmetry. In order to understand the chronological order of the BoR one has to cover all of the bible pretty intensely.

The reference to the 1/3 may come from Zechariah, and the reference to "fleeing" may come from the Olivet Discourse. Dealing with two different passages that may or may not relate can certainly confuse things if you aren't getting some of the pieces right!

I'm not personally sure whether the 1/3 in Zechariah refers to the entire NT age or just the endtimes, when Israel is purged of its sinful and recalcitrant members? And I think the Olivet Discourse focuses largely on the time of Jesus and that "generation," rather than refer to the endtimes. So confusing these two passages can, I think, present real problems.

The only people who will flee are those who come to know God right? And verses 8-9 says they will call God their God and He will call them His children again. The Jews repent just before the 1260 event, God is not going to just save people, the Jews have to repent just like the Dan. 9:24-27 prophecy says, before he 70th week ends, this is why as Matt. 23 says, they will be calling him Blessed and Lord when he returns. I just understand how it all fits together, through many years, (more so in the last 5 or 6 years) I am been given understandings because I refuse to take accept contradictions, most people who see a contradiction will just move on, I don't do that anymore, there are no contradictions with God, He will reveal all things unto those who wait on an answer. The 1/3 are Jews, Zechariah is writing about Israel, the Jews of today are indeed ALL Israel, we know that by reading Ezekiel 37, when God brought the Dead Bones to life again He emphatically stated this is the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

There were never any lost tribes, Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong was pretty much a wrong on all of his assumptions and theories. Each tribe had men living in Jerusalem/Judah. So, why did they become "Jews" (Judeans) ? For the same reasons Italians who moves to New York in the 1920s are now considered New Yorkers or Americans, over time, if you live in Judah, you become Judeans or Jews. So, just like God stated He had saved Himself 7000, which means as many as it means as in 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = COMPLETNESS, there was never any lost tribes, there was SEED from every tribe living in Judah all the time until they got toted off in 70 AD as Jews, thus they returned as Jews. The Olivet discourse from verse 15-31 is indeed end times imho.

Here you are conflating two different passages, as well. Reference to the "lightning" comes from the Olivet Discourse, and "protection in the wilderness" come from Revelation 12. I do think the "lightning" reference in the Olivet Discourse refers to Jesus' 2nd Coming, but I also think the main focus is on Jesus' own generation, who by contrast were to watch out for the coming of Rome in their own generation. Both events, the 2nd Coming and the Fall of Jerusalem, were being compared by Jesus, and both were being viewed by him as events of divine judgment that were to be prepared for, one way or another.

The Olivet Discourse from verse 15-31 is indeed the end times, so I am not conflating anything brother, I am just being factual here. The AoD is an end time event. Rev. 12 is an end time event. Dan. 12 is the exact same end time event as Rev. 12. To understand prophecy we have to be able to tie it all together. Jesus was speaking about THAT GENERATION which see the Sun and Moon not give its light, that would be the 70th week generation, or the last 7 years after the Rapture, those Jews living then will be the generation that sees Jesus return, I am sure you agree Jesus will return via a Second Coming.

This is all predicated on the assumption of a Pretrib Rapture which I have to reject. There is no biblical theology supporting it. It is argued by Pretribbers that instead of an explicit theology we are given a secretive revelation, hidden from all but the faithful. Convenient!

Well of course brother, why would I not want to believe in the Pre Trib Rapture if it is factul. By the way, I think I can win you over because it seems you are open to facts. I am sure you would be happy to go with us, but our bodies do not go zooming though the air, they remain on earth. But I have a few deep truths on this that moves a lot of peoples minds we will save that for another day. By the way, Paul told us it was a SECRET didn't he? He said, I tell you a Mystery (Musterion) or Secret by God's Silence (or to shut the mouth).

But I have a way of showing it anyway, and how it is in God's plans, you just have to dig, anyone whom can understand the BoR completely can grasp this concept also, it just takes a lot of digging like the BoR.

Oh I see--you're among the more "favored" who has been called to teach biblical prophecy, and therefore always "humble?" And so, you see that everybody who disagrees with you is "spiritually weak" or "blind?" [sigh]

You want me to fib and say I am not blessed? I don't get that argument to be honest brother. Each man has to work out his own salvation, its not up to me to say who is or isn't blind, God will judge all that stuff in the end, not me. I don't call anyone anything. Via your theory the Prophets and Jesus should have just stayed quite because others might not have seen things the same way, that is a no go in my book. The point being, if you want to make an argument against anything I say, Kool, but just trying to say I make others feel bad or they must be wrong if they disagree with me is not being very intellectually honest brother, you now people disagree with you does that make them wrong? That's a non sequitur brother.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

But our redemption was planned before the foundation of the world. How awesome is that!

This is what most Calvinists don't get, or most who believe in absolute Predestination. They don't get what Paul was pointing unto. The fact that God pre knew He was gong to have to provide a Sacrifice before He ever created the Universe gives us the meaning of what Paul was trying to say.

He was saying that God predestined us unto life ever after through Jesus Christ, but all they see is predestination, that do not see that contingent portion of Paul's quote. When we combine that with the fact that God would not that any man should perish, we know that Predestination is a complete and utter falsehood, God didn't pre choose us, he PRE CHOSE to give us a sacrifice in Christ Jesus, but not all will accept that sacrifice. So we are all pre destined to life ever after through Jesus Christ, contingent on us accepting Jesus by faith alone.

Ever think of it that way?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

As I said, I personally read the entire last sections of Dan 11 as about Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist. There are a good number of good Christians who believe as you do, that the last section deals with Antichrist. I think inserting Antichrist into a prophecy about the history of Syria and Egypt is awkward and unjustified. Most of what is said about Antiochus in the last paragraphs of Dan 11 can be explained as a recapitulation or generalized summary of all that has already been said about Antiochus.

Its not the same brother, look at the battle. There are huge hints there.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So, notice something here? Edom, Moab and Ammon are where the children of Israel escape unto, in the Central and Southern Mountainous area of modern day Jordan, look them up on a map. He enters into the Glorious Land (Israel) but passes over other countries first (Syria, Lebanon and Jordan), then he conquers all of North Africa. Let me tell you, Edom, Moab and Ammon never resisted the Seleucids/Antiochus.

Let me show you on two maps why the Little Horn comes out of the Fourth Beasts Head. Its his "SON on a map" so to speak, we have kids that look just like us at times right, thus these two maps I am about to show you tell you why Dan. 11:36-45 is s important to understand.



Notice how the Roman Empire covered every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline? Greece, Persia and Babylon were all more Eastern Centric in nature, none if them covered even half of the coastline. But the coming Anti-Christ, according to Daniel 11:40-43 will conquer Israel and all of North Africa. When we finally understand the Anti-Christ will be the president of the E.U. and that the E.U. currently has 7 year deals in place with Israel, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Tunisia, Libya, Morocco, Jordan and Algeria via the European Neighborhood Policy, we can see it all coming together.



So, when you combine the E.U who have 7 year Agreements in place with all of these countries, go read it on Wikipedia, and then we put this Dan 8:9 verse into play which says he conquers towards the East and towards the South or Turkey and Egypt and Israel, with Dan. 11:40-43 which says he rolls through counties to get at Israel (Syria, Lebanon and Jordan), and the Ethiopia of that time was not Ethiopia of today, it was much of North Africa, and Libya, we get all of North Africa, Israel and the countries that surround Israel, and of course Turkey from Dan. 8:9, thus the reason this E.U. Nation comes out of the Fourth Beasts Head is its going to look just like Rome on a map. The Wound is healed.

Add in the fact that only area he can not conquer is the Petra/Bozrah area (Ammon, Edom and Moab) and its a no brainer. This was Prophecy, they were not double speaking about a single War campaign. Why was the Greek Kingdom picked out by God for such a detailed rundown on all of their kingdoms? Because God gives us the Anti-Christ in verses 36-45 AND the Anti-Christs TYPE in verses 21-34 so we can know what to look for. The Anti-Christ must be born in Greece AND he has to come to power out of the E.U. and ONLY Greece out of the Four Generals Kingdoms is currently in the E.U. so ONLY Greece fits.

The exact same landmass will be in play again. A King from Greece who comes to power in the E.U. Other facts show he will not acknowledge ANY GOD, whilst Antiochus clearly worshiped Zeus.

The AGREEMENT with MANY is the European Neighborhood Policy.

I am going to post this separate since its a bit involved, and longer.

 

[michaelvpardo]

This is what most Calvinists don't get, or most who believe in absolute Predestination. They don't get what Paul was pointing unto. The fact that God pre knew He was gong to have to provide a Sacrifice before He ever created the Universe gives us the meaning of what Paul was trying to say.

He was saying that God predestined us unto life ever after through Jesus Christ, but all they see is predestination, that do not see that contingent portion of Paul's quote. When we combine that with the fact that God would not that any man should perish, we know that Predestination is a complete and utter falsehood, God didn't pre choose us, he PRE CHOSE to give us a sacrifice in Christ Jesus, but not all will accept that sacrifice. So we are all pre destined to life ever after through Jesus Christ, contingent on us accepting Jesus by faith alone.

Ever think of it that way?

I'm unfamiliar with Calvin's teaching but have probably heard some of it in the Baptist churches that I've attended, but I absolutely believe in predestination. It's the only way to explain how an unregenerate sinner, a person whose only feelings toward God are anger and hatred, would turn to seek God and believe christ (the only way that agrees with scripture). However, I do not believe that everyone who hasn't received the gospel is automatically cast into hell (if you define hell as the "lake of fire".)
My reading of scripture suggests that the grace of God is so large as to encompass a place for the "unclean" to live, though not a pleasant one. Certainly this place, the outer darkness, could be thought as "hellish", but would it be worse than the world that we live in now but absent the grace of God.

The last gospel proclaimed upon the Earth before Christ's return, is the everlasting gospel, which in its succinct form is "fear God and give glory to Him". We wouldn't call it a gospel or "good news" if it were simply preached to the damned condemned to Hellfire. Think about it. A Holy Angel announces to the condemned "fear God and give glory to Him." What would be the point?
The millenial reign of Christ has a purpose. Some say reasonably that it is a reward to the saints, but the Lord has shown me something more, perhaps a second opportunity under the judgment of the saints, for "the lost."
Our God is certainly One given to "second chances" or no one would be saved at all. Who are we to say who might recieve God's grace after the gospel of the kingdom sees its fulfillment?
In chapter 12 of the book of Daniel we find:
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Since this passage speaks to the resurrection, everlasting life and everlasting contempt. To what purpose do the wise shine "like the brightness of the firmament?
Why do the evangelists or "those who turn many to righteousness" shine " like the stars forever and ever?"
Is it just a reward to satisfy our vanity?
That doesn't seem likely to me, but perhaps such vanity is supposed to be part of the "image of God " (though I hope not.)
God's purposes are greater than that which is revealed in scripture, but what is already revealed isn't completely understood. The saints will judge the angels, but there must be a basis for that judgment. God became a man in order to suffer as men do and be perfected in His role as "High priest". We become "as angels" but to what purpose?
Think about it. Perhaps the Lord will reveal something more to two or three prophets so that it may be established in heaven and upon the Earth. (One witness is never enough in matters of the law.)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years), it's that simple

I sympathize. There is precedent for using symbols for blocks of time, such as in Joseph's dreams. In Gen 41 we see that cows and heads of grain represented years. "Times" may pass for "years" in Daniel's book.

We don't have a lot of precedent for a Week of 7 days representing a Week of years. However, it seems unnatural in the context to assume the things Daniel wrote of could be fulfilled in just days.

And so, most interpreters assume the day=year theory of interpretation. Daniel was apocalyptic in genre and used a lot of symbolism.

The use of cryptic language is, I think, associated with Jewish revelation in a pagan country, since the revelation may appear subversive and seditious to the overlords. Jesus used parables to hide truth from corrupt and judgmental Jewish leaders.

I see nothing wrong with viewing the 70 Weeks as 490 years. The emphasis was obviously on the series of 7--70 is 10 x 7. And there were 70 7s. It is a reference to the fact God established the Week as a unit of time under the Law.

It was established to represent the need for a period of rest following work, particularly in reference to redemption. The 70 Weeks has to do, therefore, with Israel obtaining final rest from all of her labors in justification.

By the 70th Week Christ had come to achieve that for them, even though Israel herself would continue to fail in her own temple worship. The temple would be destroyed, and Jerusalem would be desolated.

 

[Davy]

I'm not a Preterist. I'll read the rest of your post later maybe, but stop labelling people when you don't know what you are talking about.

Historicist, Preterist, all the same thing. They wrongly believe Bible prophecy that has not... happened yet, to be past history already, just like your poor attempt to place the Luke 23:27-31 Scripture as being past history for 70 A.D. So thank you for your own work of labeling your position for us.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Historicist, Preterist, all the same thing.... So thank you for your own work of labeling your position for us.

I'm not a Historicist either, and why are you always criticizing and insulting people when you don't even know what you are talking about?