Christ4Me said:
John 1:18-No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46- Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Although Jesus testified above that no man had seen God the Father at any time, but He did as God because He was from above and not of the earth as other men were.[/QUOTE\]
I agree with the scriptures that say the Only Begotten Son of God is from heaven, that he existed in heaven before he became human. What I disagree with is how people interpret certain scriptures to try to prove that this person who is the Only Begotten Son of God and who was in heaven before he became human and was given the name Jesus when he became human is the same person as God(ho the•os)[YHWH]. It should be noted that the greek word "[the•os'] and [ho the•os']were not the same thing in this period when John originally was inspired to write his gospel. For the apostle John, only the Father was 'God' [ho the•os](YHWH) John shows us this at John 17:3. John always showed that the Only Begotten Son of God is subordinate to God(ho the•os)[YHWH]. So God(ho the•os) is YHWH he is the Father and God of Jesus Christ.(John 20:17) It should also be noted concerning John 1:1 that this text says that the Word was with God(ho the•os)[YHWH], this part of John 1:1 isn't saying that the Word is God (ho the•os)[YHWH].The second part of John 1:1 doesn't contradict the first part that says the Word was with God(ho the•os)[YHWH] and verse 2 of John chapter 1 would be completely unnecessary if John was inspired to write that The Word was God(ho the•os)[YHWH]. At John 1:18 the most reliable manuscripts translate this scripture as, "No man has seen God(ho the•os)[YHWH] at anytime the only-begotten god who is at the Father side is the one who has explained him. "God or "ho the•os" is "YHWH" and is Jesus Christ Father and God. This is the point I keep saying is what the scriptures show that God or ho the•os or YHWH is the Father and God of Jesus Christ. The scriptures don't show that Jesus is God or ho the•os or YHWH. So John 6:46 is saying that Jesus is YHWH because the scriptures make it clear that the Father and God of Jesus is YHWH.
Christ4Me said:
John 8:23-And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.[/QUOTE\]
As I said I understand that the Only Begotten Son of God existed in heaven before coming to mankind as a human. However 1John 4:9-11shows us that the person who came from heaven and became a human named Jesus, that before he became human he was said to be the Only Begotten Son of God, not "ho the•os or YHWH." This is confirmed by Jesus himself when he says at John 8:38,42 and John 17:5,24 and other clear statements in scripture God inspired other apostles to write down such as Romans 8:3; Galatians 4:4; 1John 4:9-11. The scriptures don't show that Jesus is YHWH(ho the•os).
Christ4Me said:
Jesus said Abraham had seen Him in His day before His incarnation as the prophesied Son of Man.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.[/QUOTE\]
You have excluded John 8:54 where Jesus said that, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God." Anyone knows that the one these Jews claimed to worship was God(ho the•os)[YHWH] so Jesus wasn't claiming to be "ho the•os or YHWH," but that it was YHWH(ho the•os) that glorifies him. It is the Father and God of Jesus who is "ho the•os or YHWH." So you using John 8:56-59 to try to prove that Jesus is saying he's YHWH or ho the•os I disagree with what you're saying, these scriptures don't say that Jesus was saying he was "ho the•os or YHWH."
Christ4Me said:
The Lord appeared to Moses in
Exodus 3:2,
Exodus 3:15-17,
Exodus 4:1-8 &
Exodus 6:1-4[/QUOTE\]
The scripturalness of an invisible presence is borne out by YHWH God saying to Moses regarding the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of the Tabernacle: "and I will present myself to you there and speak with you from above the cover."(Exodus 25:22) This scripture isn't saying that God appeared to Moses in a visible form, since the scriptures are clear that, " no man has seen God at any time"- neither Moses nor the high priest who entered the Most Holy (John 1:18; Exodus 33:20)
We have to keep such scriptures as 1kings 8:10-13, 27-30 and Acts 7:45-50 in mind too. YHWH wasn't literally in the temple, no one literally saw YHWH, but his attention was toward that temple at Jerusalem.
These scriptures show us that YHWH power to be present on earth in a spiritual way therefore invisible while he yet remains in heaven. His presence might in some cases be by means of an angelic representative who acted and spoke for YHWH, the angel even saying, "I am the God of your father," as an angel did in the flaming bush who spoke to Moses.(Exodus 3:2-8; Exodus 23:20; 32:34)
YHWH told Moses that he was "coming" to him at Mount Sinai and would "come down" there(Exodus 19:9, 11, 18, 20), yet the apostolic writings show that it was actually by his angels that YHWH was there present and delivered to Moses his covenant. Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2
The Apostles and disciples of Jesus were familiar with accounts which individuals or at times the Bible writer of the account, responded to or spoke of an angelic messenger as though he were YHWH God.(Genesis 16:7-11, 13; 18:1-5, 22-23; 32:24-30; Judges 6:11-15; 13:20-22.) We must understand that these were angelic representatives of YHWH not literally YHWH himself.
None of these scriptures contradict the fact that it's the Father and God of Jesus who is YHWH.
The one thing you consistently show is that you don't believe or have faith that God has a Only Begotten Son who he used to create through him not only the rest of creation into existence but in using his Only Begotten Son to undo all the things that the angel who became Satan has caused when he rebelled and got others, humans and other angels to join him in his rebellion.