Paralambanetai

[Timtofly]

Out of curiosity then, in simple terms how do you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2?

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the Day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I associate the day of Christ as the Day of the Lord. By that, the whole 1,000 year reign of Christ as Prince. In the OD Jesus claimed many antichrist and false prophets would come and go. Not just a single AC at the end. Neither did John indicate a single AC symbolically nor literally in Revelation. I think that Paul was referring to Satan. Now Satan is not going to step out and reveal himself, because if Satan is a reality, then humans would question their modern view that God is not real. So I am not really looking for any single person nor a group to oust Satan.

If there is a great falling away, has that not happened as well off and on? I accept the point Jesus made in Matthew 13, that at the end He is coming with the angels to carry out the final harvest. The church will be gone at that point. Yet there are still souls harvested for the kingdom by Jesus directly.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think that Paul was referring to Satan.

The obvious problem there, however, is that he is described as a man in v.3, and then in v.8 it says, "And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth," which means that the one referred not only can die but will die at Christ's return. This would seem to make him mortal. Meanwhile, scripture says that Satan will be imprisoned in the earth for a thousand years during Christ's millennial reign, and then loosed again at the end of it for a short time. So I don't think the reference is to Satan personally.

 

[ewq1938]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.


Don't believe anyone that says this event is the rapture. Here are 7 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2



Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.


Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).


greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.








The only other use of this word in the bible was people departing from the teachings of Moses which is an Apostasy from his teachings. Neither use has anything to do with simply going somewhere physically.


The same exact concept is described here:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[ewq1938]

The obvious problem there, however, is that he is described as a man in v.3, and then in v.8 it says, "And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth," which means that the one referred not only can die but will die at Christ's return.

How do you explain that both beasts in Revelation 19 are cast alive into the LOF?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

And not only that but verse 7 then ties in. But…I don’t know, maybe he doesn’t think the restrainer is who I think the restrainer of that man of perdition is…

I will give you an example. God works through men.

When Israel was in a battle, Moses was told by God that he had to hold the staff up or else Israel would start losing the battle, when Moses got tired and the staff came down Arron and Joshua had to hold up the staff because Israel indeed stared losing. Think of the Church as the staff and God giving Israel the victory as the Holy Spirit bringing forth that victory through the Israeli Armies. (The holy spirit is God and who was the one giving Israel the victory also, God's full glory can't be anywhere near mankind, it would consume us).

So, the HE in the verse is the Holy Spirit who works through the Church which will we be departed, thus the coming Anti-Christ will be free to come forth once again.

Take out the Church Age period of time, insert Israel on both sides of the Church Age's timeline and we get a continual Beast System, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome (Church Age taken away) and the Little Horn.

Its the Church that delivered the Mortal Wound to the Beast. John was looking backwards in time but the Fourth Beast was CURRENT, even when looking from the very end of the 70th week. Notice how John gave Greece first, then Persia, the Babylon, but Rome was still the current Beast with the Mortal Wound.

Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard(Greece), and his feet were as the feet of a bear(Persia), and his mouth as the mouth of a lionBabylon) and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome is CURRENT till the end when we take out the Church Age's Mortal Wound); and his deadly wound was healedThe Anti-Christ conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region) and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

We the Church, via our blood, overcame the Roman Beast, we turned it from a Beast into a conveyor belt of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus told Peter that the Church would not be overcome by the gates of hell. So, what was the difference in the Church Age period? We were given the Holy Spirit to operate in. Amen.

Now lets tie that all back in together in a tidy manner.

2 Thess. 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God (Anti-Christ), or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth(Stops the A.C. from coming forth) that he(A.C.) might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth(Means BINDS as in with Chains) will let,(Bind) until he(Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way.(The Holy Spirit has no vessel to work through and nor reason to BIND him because it is now his time, thus he stops BINDING the Man of Sin from coming forth against the Church who couldn't be overcome, who is not on this earth anymore by that time, but is instead in Heaven marrying the Lamb of God as Rev. 19 shows us).

In other words, when we look back at verse 6 we see it ends with that he may be revealed in HIS TIME. So, the Church which can not be overcome by the Beast system, and is not appointed unto God's Wrath, will be taken away and only then can the Beast go forth conquering again. Thus the Anti-Christ enters into a 7 year agreement (which are in place now as we speak) in which he takes the old agreement and puts his own spin on it when he comes to power in the E.U. Then the Little Horn/Anti-Christ will arise amongst the 10 (E.U.)

IN SHORT {;)} The He is the Anti-Christ, he is not taken out of the world, he just STOPS BLOCKING the path pf the Beast System, think of it as a felled tree blocking a road, being moved to the side.

 

[bbyrd009]

And this is what we don’t set a date on because no man knows when it will happen. But there surely will be men on earth in the tribulation who can come pretty darn close to being able to set a date for when Christ comes.

i would have thought the observation that Christ "comes, appears, is revealed," but never "returns" to be all the clues one needed?

oh. but i just realized this has gone to seven pages; didnt indicate on the orig screen

 

[ewq1938]

So, the Church which can not be overcome by the Beast system, and is not appointed unto God's Wrath

Christ was quite clear the church would face tribulation, and the worst of that tribulation does come during the Great Tribulation.

Just look at what he said to his Christian disciples about what happens in the Great Tribulation:

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you". He was also speaking to his Christian disciples.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.

 

[Timtofly]

I guess it’s a good time to bring up the Ezekiel verse that has disturbed me for a long time, the one that says, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. I finally just assumed it had to be a mistranslation. It’s either that or I am really, really missing something.

Covid has taken away both the righteous and the wicked. Covid was even dividing people, as in one taken and the other left. We do not need either apostasy nor a rapture to see that already occurring in the last 2 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Apostasy from Moses is the right way to translate it : ) Apostasy against Moses makes it sound almost like he was back in the wilderness with him, and trying to pull a Korah or something.

Not Moses. It was the whole Word of God delivered to Moses. Satan started using science/knowledge hundreds of years before Christ was even born. Satan did not just use God's Word concerning the Atonement or even keeping the Law. The very basis of knowledge today in what we call science has removed us so far from God's Word we have Christians accepting theistic evolution. Sure they are not deceived in the Gospel, and not even in eschatology. But creation is where the church has totally been hoodwinked by Satan.

Even the ivy league colleges of the original thirteen colonies in America were bastions of teaching God's Word and spreading the gospel. What do they do today? To many Moses is just a myth, and the Exodus never even happened. All just human imagination to spread feel good stories to our naive young ones. Who then grow up trusting humanism and everything else besides God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

The obvious problem there, however, is that he is described as a man in v.3, and then in v.8 it says, "And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth," which means that the one referred not only can die but will die at Christ's return. This would seem to make him mortal. Meanwhile, scripture says that Satan will be imprisoned in the earth for a thousand years during Christ's millennial reign, and then loosed again at the end of it for a short time. So I don't think the reference is to Satan personally.

Let me try it this way:

"For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man (Satan/Pan) who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. He (Satan/Pan) will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he (Satan/Pan) will put himself above them all, so that he (Satan/Pan) will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. Then the one (the FP) who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one (the FP) whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming. When this man (the FP) who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary (Satan/Pan) will give him (the FP) the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. He (Satan/Pan) will enable him (the FP) to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned."

Revelation 13:3-14

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (the FP) And they worshipped the dragon (Satan/Pan) which gave power unto the beast: (the FP) and they worshipped the beast, (the FP) saying, Who is like unto the beast? (the FP) who is able to make war with him? (the FP) And there was given unto him (the FP) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him (the FP) to continue forty and two months. And he (the FP) opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him (the FP) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him (the FP) over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the FP), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast (Satan/Pan) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he (Satan/Pan) exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him (the FP), and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast (the FP), whose deadly wound was healed. And he (Satan/Pan) doeth great wonders, so that he (Satan/Pan) maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he (Satan/Pan) had power to do in the sight of the beast; (the FP) saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image (the beast many call an AC) to the beast, (the FP) which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

It goes on to state Satan is allowed to give life to the image. This makes the image the third beast, but not human. So John always calls this image the beast in following chapters along with Satan and the FP.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Again, I am going back to context here. You just inserted verse 1 back into verse 3 to change the immediate context. Look at it again without the inserted phrase:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

No, Paul pointed back unto a particular Departing by using a definite article. Instead of rehashing that point again I will repost to see if you can understand why I say Paul is pointing back unto the very first verse.

..........One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”................

So I already answered this, you using a bible that says apostacy doesn't move me in the least, I am looking at the original meaning of the verse brother. I don't care what the KJV English translators stated it meant, and then led other bibles off the track later on. I only care about what Paul actually wrote and meant. The first 7 English translations had Departure. The Latin Vulgate had discessio which means departure from 400 AD. So why is it all of the sudden a falling away? Because the English translators changed it trying to peg the RCC as a false church in all likely-hood, no matter their motive, they are wrong in their translation.

You are inserting apostacy which was not there until 1611. Which colors the whole verse with a misunderstanding of the verse, as everyone can see, faith is not mentioned in the passage anywhere at all.

Look at the thrust of these two verses. It is very clear. The focus is not on the rapture but on the coming of the Antichrist, and it continues on this way for several more verses; almost the rest of the Chapter. The rapture is not the theme here - the arrival of the Antichrist is - which makes the interpretation that the apostasy is referring to the rapture dubious at best, and completely out of context at worst.

The Anti-Christ is not the focus at all brother, its the Thessalonians FEARS that they were in the Day of the Lord God's Wrath which was the focus in this whole passage. We know the focus is on their fear that the Day of the Lord is at hand because Paul then tells them two things that must happen before they can be in he DOTL.

1.) The Departure must happen
2.) The Anti-Christ must come to power first. (Only then the Day of the Lord God's Wrath can be at hand)

BOTH of these things have to happen before the Thessalonians can be in the Day of the Lord God's Wrath. In essence, they either thought they had been left or that Paul had misinformed them because some other people had told them they were in the Day of the Lord God's Wrath.

So, the focus is on the Day of the Lord, not the Anti-Christ and not the Departure, but the Thessalonians fears that they were in the DOTL.

CONTINUED.....

 

[Ronald D Milam]

He's basing this teaching off of Matthew 24, which includes the following:

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

V. 10 is talking about believers betraying one another. And why will they betray each other? Because they have apostatized against the Lord and are now betraying other Christians to save their own lives.

I don't even get your overall point here brother. 2 Thess. 2 speaks nothing about Faith anywhere in the passage, that's what I stated and I stand by that, its a fact that can't be refuted.

As per the Matt. 24 verses. You get verse 10 wrong IMHO, not on Jesus' point, but who its about (Disciples only in this instance) and the actual timing. Verses 14 and 15 can't be mixed together as per their timings.

Matt. 24:4-6 is only about 70 AD.

Matt. 24:7-14 is only about the Church Age.

Matt. 24:15-31 s only about the 70th week tribulation period.

Notice the THREE MENTIONS of false christs (v 5) false prophets/preachers/teachers (v 11) and THE False Prophet and Anti-Christ in verse 24. All three are a different time period.

Jesus warned the Disciples not to come back to Jerusalem when they heard of wars and rumors of wars (in their lives, in 70 AD) because he knew they would be killed, so he gave them a fail safe understanding and told them the end would be BY & BY (later on......that END being the 70th week). Later in verse 14 Jesus tells them when THE END (70th week) will come, only when the Gospel had been preached unto ALL the world, thus as long as India and China remained in a position where he gospel had not been preached unto them, the end or 70th week could not be at hand, so they knew not to return looking for the false christ (v5) put forth by the Pharisees fulfilling John 5:43, they had rejected Jesus but put forth false messiahs whom they thought would save them from the Roman Fourth Beast. So the disciples knew not to return to Jerusalem leading up to the 70 AD events. Thus verses 4-6 are about 70 AD. (When shall these things be? verse 3)

Verses 7-14 are about the Church Age only. Jesus tells them about the sorrows/birth pangs that will get worse and worse until his return, the Earthquakes, Pestilence (Black Plague, COVID 19 etc.) Ethos against Ethos (race vs. race), and Kingdom vs. kingdoms (Wars in both cases).

Then Jesus WARNS the disciples that they will all die (Save John...remember one Disciple aske about John and why he would be allowed to live? Jesus said let me worry about that). He does this for a very specific reason. He doesn't want them to become another Judas. So he warns them ahead of time that they will all be betrayed in one way or another and killed. Knowing this, lets look afresh at those verses.

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So, Jesus is letting them all know that they will be hated and betrayed, they will all die besides John who has a mission to write the book of Revelation. Then Jesus tells them SPECIIFICALLY that they must endure until the end [of ones life] just as Paul had stated, its a Marathon, not a sprint. Then Jesus tells them the secret to understanding when THE END (70th week) will come. He tells them that the gospel has to be preached unto all the world, thus they knew 70 AD was not Jesus' Second Coming (the end is BY & BY in the coming END TIME 70th week).

The very next verse is what? The AoD (70th week).

So, I do not put any of Matt. 24:7-14 with verses 15-31.

Yes, words CAN morph, so the burden of proof falls on usage. I have demonstrated that apostatizing from Moses more likely means that they religiously apostatized from him, which is a stronger case than that they potentially just walked away from him to put physical distance between him and themselves, since Moses had long since passed on. The burden would fall on you to produce uses of the word where it simply means departure in the physical sense. In classical usage, apostasis is used of military revolts, and the noun apostates was used of political deserters. In the LXX, it is used of apostatizing from God, and thus developed its distinctly religious connotations, no longer referring simply to political or military apostasy but religious apostasy as well.

So I guess my response is, show me that a stronger case can be made for it meaning simple physical departure than religious or political apostasy.

I have already proved the case factually brother. You are the one using the morphed word not me, think about it. Why do you think I pointed out that the first 1500 years of the church that the word DEPARTED was used there, not Falling Away? To make a Falling Away from the Faith work you must show me where faith is part of the chapter. It can't be done, because its about a Departing of the Church from a standing on this earth as being the Church of Jesus Christ.

So via your own question above, all I have to do is point to the original word being departure for the first 1500 years, the word you are using is the morphed word, thus you need to prove the exact same point which you stated I needed to prove above, that the Faith is a part of the context of that passage. You can not do it because its not about the departure from the faith, its about the church departing this earth, thus there is no need for the Thessalonians to fear that they were in the Day of the Lord God's Wrath.

I don't care about the matching of the word to Moses to a certain word found elsewhere, I explained that via it being in verb form. A departure from this EARTH is an action, not a belief. Jesus is whisking the church away from this earth. But both can be said to be verbs, or actions. And thus as shown in other verses the Departure ca be away from an actual standing on this earth.

And yes, my blogs are much better prepared than my reply's, I type 1000 miles an hour. I have like 50-70 pages open most of the time. Sorry about the spelling/poor grammar at times.

God Bless. Thanks for a civil debate, I love you brothers and sisters with a Godly tone.

I am excited, I am ready to meet my Lord, but so many need to be saved I am torn in the spirit.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I guess it’s a good time to bring up the Ezekiel verse that has disturbed me for a long time, the one that says, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. I finally just assumed it had to be a mistranslation. It’s either that or I am really, really missing something.

Ezekiel 21 is God telling Israel they were about to be cut-off or going into bondage in Babylon for 70 years. So, because of the wicked peoples sins the Righteous also had to suffer. Daniel was carried away to Babylon. Many righteous men were not doubt enslaved and killed because of the wicked peoples continual sins against God. Its context, context, context.

Also, his reasoning has Paul telling the church that concerning our gathering together, the thing to watch for is the man of perdition. That’s like…if you want to know when I will gather you, look for that man to appear first. It’s…yucky feeling, and it doesn’t fit at all with verses 7.

No, it concerning the Day of the Lord God's Wrath (which they were afraid of) but I point out he's POINTING unto the Gathering unto Christ thus I point out he's pointing unto the Rapture which must happen first. Let me take out the Rapture(Gathering) part out and show you what his CONCERN really is. They wrote different from the way we write. And different languages, even today when translated confuses people. Beseech simply means we ask you urgently.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, ()2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

NOW THINK OF THE PART IN PARENTHISIS. (by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,)

So now INSERT the parenthetical citation into the above verse, see how he's really speaking about their FEAR of being in the Day of the Lord God's Wrath? But points out IN PARENTHISIS why they should not fear?

Paul wants them to know why he's asking them NOT TO FEAR !! The Rapture is what they need to look for, because the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) must be preceded by The Rapture (DEPARTURE) and then the Coming Anti-Christ. Well, since we leave at the Rapture, why would you think I am suggesting that Paul was telling the Thessalonians to look for the Anti-Christ? We will be gone at the Rapture, then the Man of Sin comes, but BOTH THINGS must happen before the DOTL comes.

So, Paul was only trying to allay their fears that they were in the DOTL by showing them two things which must happen before the DOTL happens. The Rapture (Departure) and the Man of Sin, thus they could not be in the coming Day of the Lord.

 

[Curtis]

Ok. :)

Given his long held habit of eyeing the Ukraine, you're apparently not the only one who's ever wondered about it.

One of the names of the antichrist is THE SYRIAN - is Putin from Syria?

 

[ewq1938]

No, Paul pointed back unto a particular Departing by using a definite article.

Yes, he highlighted the departure from the faith of Christianity also known as the Apostasy.

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2



Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.


Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).


greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

 

[Brakelite]

Although… Paul said to the Galatians, remember, I told you, the man had to appear first…

And he's been here for 1700 years.:)

 

[Enoch111]

One of the names of the antichrist is THE SYRIAN - is Putin from Syria?

Not "Syrian" but "Assyrian". Which would mean from iraq, not Syria. The Antichrist will be a renegade Jew.

 

[Enoch111]

And he's been here for 1700 years.

That cannot be true since the role of the Antichrist is to deceive the whole world.

 

[Truth7t7]

Meanwhile, scripture says that Satan will be imprisoned in the earth for a thousand years during Christ's millennial reign, and then loosed again at the end of it for a short time. So I don't think the reference is to Satan personally.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not "Syrian" but "Assyrian". Which would mean from iraq, not Syria. The Antichrist will be a renegade Jew.

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV
22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.